297 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

First off, the initial premise of your observation and subsequent proposals seems pretty dodgy.

Paul Inouye, on 20 April 2020 - 03:06 PM, said:

[color=orange]Initial Findings[/color]

For perspective, here were the numbers we were looking at prior to any changes (for communication purposes, this is Scenario A ):
- 12v12 Group Queue
- 12 player max group size.
- Average time for a match [color=yellow]9.7 minutes[/color].

On Friday, we set up a test restriction on Group Queue of 8-player max group sizes and matches were 8v8. During that evening, there was a community event and people checking in on what the change would play out like. Here's what we saw throughout Friday evening ( Scenario B ):
- Average time for a match in group queue: [color=yellow]3.2 minutes[/color].

That was a significant drop in wait times but we have to understand that, that was a best case scenario due to the event and people trying the new system out.

As expected, after the event and check-ins, the number started to climb. We checked the numbers on Monday at noon Pacific Time, (off peak North America) and found the following ( Scenario C ):
- Average time for a match [color=yellow]6.5 minutes[/color].

What period are you using to get that 9.7 min average wait time in 12 v 12 GQ? I mean, c'mon, we all know darn well that within a few months after Russ's maintenance mode announcement at the end of last May, the population of GQ become zero. Wait times since then are all but meaningless as the population simply stopped playing, with the exception of a couple of short lived semi-organized attempts to get folks back. Before then, most of the regular GQ players rarely had more than a few minute wait time, because as you say, more than a few minutes waiting feels like forever, and most of us wouldn't have put up with it; and yet many of us were playing GQ daily up until shortly after the maintenance mode announcement.

And the 3.2 minute average wait time number for Friday evening in the new 8v8 GQ? I've played GQ most evenings since the new 8v8 started, and most of my matches have been insta-drop, with a few that perhaps got up to three minute wait times, but those were all last night (a Sunday).

In any case the data you are starting off is being used to make an apples to oranges comparison, and the underlying means of how that data was acquired appears to be based on bananas.

But how you get from those asserted observations of average wait times to the conclusion that maybe we ought to eliminate GQ and allow up to 4 man teams into SQ is truly boggling. You honestly think that comp queue is going to sate the competitive drive of the best players,and that these same folks won't come into the regular game and play? That they won't dominate in their 4-mans (and sync dropping friends who show up as an evening of play progresses) despite your own observations that a 4-man group can heavily influence a match? That makes no sense. Plus, we've been here before. We know how this will play out. It it won't be good for anyone.

This 8v8 experiment has been great, but the conclusions you have reached from it are nuts. There is no reason not to let the people who like playing together continue to do so...in a 8v8 queue, which these past few days have shown is viable; and if you want let individuals opt in, that'd be fine too. But the madness you are proposing above? Yikes.

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 April 2020 - 10:38 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Things that must happen.

1. each team only gets 1 group of equal size.
2. each team's group and pug player elos are roughly equal in average IE average group elo ~= average group elo while PUG ELO ~= PUG ELO
3. Map spawns are consolidated into one location per team. No more spawning one lance in N8 and the other in A1. Both lances should spawn right next to eachother.

[TheHurp]

i really think the best options are already mentioned as below. this way the player base can have the best of both worlds even if it's not as big as it once was. letting a single solo Q player into group Q (whether via opt-in or notification like the Faction play pop-up) will help a lot.

Jay Z, on 21 April 2020 - 01:02 AM, said:

Option A:

Solo: Solo players only - 8v8
Group: Groups of 1-4 - 8v8

This would mean that players who wish to have a solo experience can continue to do so without groups. It also means that groups can play together and solo players can fill in the "group Tetris". If more than 5 players wish to group together, Faction Play still has 12v12 and no group limit.

A bonus to this is that if Solo players could opt into both "buckets" their search time would be decreased and Group Queue could pick up these players to fill in the Tetris as required, giving the MM an easier time to fill in matches.

--------------------------------

Option B:

Solo: Solo players only - 8v8
Group: Groups of 1-8 - 8v8

As above but with no group limit. Allowing solo players to opt in to group still assists group queue Tetris. This is a rather small change from the current system (12 -> 8 and soloes in both).

justcallme A S H, on 21 April 2020 - 01:54 AM, said:

So there are 3 options here as I see it.


OPTION 1 - Allow Groups into SoloQ.
(refer above to the end result I would expect).


OPTION 2 - Make GroupQ 8v8.

• Group sizes of 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 only. No odd numbers. Or just limit it to 4 max.
  
• Allow Solo players to OPT-IN for GroupQ. Have a little check box the same as the server options. Casual/SoloQ players are not impacted. More serious players can take on a potential harder challenge. Win-Win.

OPTION 3 - MWO becomes 8v8 for SoloQ and GroupQ.

• All the things in #2
  
• Adjust match payouts/experience etc.

this change is a really major change, as big as the ghost heat 2 at least, and that one had a longer test period. for now the best option is to leave Group Q at 8v8 for a little while until more players know about it and start exploring it with friends. a single weekend as a test period (knowing there is a community lead event) seems like a sincerely unclear picture for a long term significant adjustment. i think for now it just needs more time to catch on, and i don't see why there would be a rush to add 4-man groups to solo Q.

[Luminis]

Oh yes, do it! Allow groups in solo queue! Do it, do it, do eeeeeeeet!

Not because it'll make matches better, it'll make the stomps way worse. Not because it'll bring back players, because they'll all drop out immediately for the same reasons they're not currently active in group queue.

But the salt! The drama! The memes! Do it for that! I really, really want to witness that, maybe partake, even!

MWO is dying a slow death anyway, at least let it go out with a bang of salt, drama and memes!

[N_o_v_A]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not combine group and solo queue!

[justcallme A S H]

Brauer, on 21 April 2020 - 07:07 AM, said:

As Blaizer said nobody is mentioning stats. If anything the WLR and KDR of the people coming out against this idea is likely to go up if they play in groups that are dumped into soloq.

It comes from a SINGLE discussion on one of the Facebook pages by myself.

Of course it's being taken totally out of context, WLR and KDR wasn't the actual discussion, it just came up as a side discussion from someone that doesn't understand the gravity of this change.. But you know, try to justify you argument however you can, right?

[Big Tin Man]

I don't have the time to read everything, but here's my $0.02 of long overdue changes that need to happen to keep things going

1. 8v8 from now on, keep FP 12v12
2. Max group size of 4 (just split your big group up and sync drop)
3. Merge solo and group queue
4. RESET PSR

PSR has turned into a joke. Playing on an alt is a drastically different experience than playing on my max tier 1 main. I am not a max tier 1 player, I've just been around a long time and filled the XP bar. PSR needs a reset.

5. Our 8 man group on Saturday night didn't wait long for matches at all for most of NA prime time. If smaller groups are having issues getting a match, it's more likely because they can't fill in the gaps to complete a team. 4 player max group and solo players will infill that.

[Liveish]

DeathlyEyes, on 21 April 2020 - 10:47 AM, said:

Things that must happen.

1. each team only gets 1 group of equal size.
2. each team's group and pug player elos are roughly equal in average IE average group elo ~= average group elo while PUG ELO ~= PUG ELO
3. Map spawns are consolidated into one location per team. No more spawning one lance in N8 and the other in A1. Both lances should spawn right next to eachother.

Lol PSR/ELO does not mean anything any MWO, it’s not a skill level.


Back on topic, please do this and test it for 6 weeks, make sure you run some PR for it.

Do a sale, post to all socials including steam, run evens ect ect... go all out

[Jay Z]

For context, I want the game to be enjoyable for the wider community. I've been involved with the community for a long time (40+ MWO discords, streaming MWO for 7 years, etc) and I listen to players of all experiences and skill levels. Just last night I coordinated 2x LFG 4 mans in Group Queue Oceanic time with some LFG players who had not played GQ much or at all and they really enjoyed the 8v8 GQ dynamic.

The reason I mention this is that the proposed change of 1 queue of 1-4 in 12v12 turns up the unbalanced matches to 11. PSR in 2020 (now that so many people are T1-3 due to play time not skill) does not help the situation. If implemented, my stream viewers, my LFG acquaintances (I have a massive friend list for ad hoc groups!) and the wider community will experience more heavily one-sided matches against them. The benefits of 8v8 from a MM perspective need to be restated. The skill disparity within this game is extreme so let's give MM an easier time ok?

For myself, I just want to play the game with a small number of my long time friends. However, I am conscious of what that means if we are let loose in solo queue. Comp players care!!! <3

Edited by Jay Z, 21 April 2020 - 02:58 PM.

[Nesutizale]

Woho small grous in solo Q (if I understand it right). That will be greate for our 3 man group...excep they left the game years ago because we couldn't find a matches.

Still good to see it finaly beeing worked on.

[Bud Crue]

FYI...I think this friggin post, killed the queue again. Great drops the last three days, and now no one.

Edit: will try again in at 8:30 Eastern

Edit 2: As a 4-man, we got four drops against an 8-man of known good players.then when we added a 5th, Nothing. Then quite for a half hour. Came back at 8:30 Eastern to try again as a 4-man, waited 10 minutes, no drops. Well done Paul. This post was perhaps as effective as Russ's maintenance mode announcement at killing a suddenly revitalized queue.

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 April 2020 - 05:15 PM.

[Greziz]

If you really cared about having a decent player base and seriously bringing the game into a healthy player base. I would take a few days to look at how league of legends monetizes only cosmetic additions to a players game and not gameplay things like hero mechs etc. I have had so many friends quit when they realized they would never have access to hero mechs or the ability to own more than 4 mechs unless they spent real money. I know I know sure if you grind limited time events you can earn more hanger slots and such but you basic free to play player isn't interested in that excuse and the majority of leagues player base is free to play children who will probably only ever get to spend irl money on the game 1-2 times a year for their birthdays but this game simply relies on milking the hell out of "whales" and to be fair battle tech has tons of old mechwarrior fans who have plenty of spare dosh to spend on this franchise but even some of them are losing interest on the game due to high que times due to a lack of free to play players who were scorned by hero mech shenanigans etc.

[Greziz]

And before you claim I just mad I can't use hero mechs. I have probably spent over 400 dollars on this game. Way more than I should have. All because the core game is actually so well done the game is fun but most of my more casual friends I play other games with enjoyed the game for roughly 1-3 weeks before the "Pay to win drove them away." I know the hero mechs arn't exactly pay to win but it is a very real mental block that free to play players perceive it as.

[Triaxx2]

Why not just add a solo only/group allowed tick box to to the server selection dropdown, so a solo player has the option to be shuffled into a group drop?

[Tarl Cabot]

If, who am I kidding.. when PGI makes this change, it does need some changes.

1. Tier Realignment between Tier 1-4. Tier 5 for newbies and those who are already there.
2. PSR change - greater thresholds thus removing the upward movement bias
3. MM use two tier separation instead of 3, or 2.5 (why not?)
4. MM does not take average Tier but highest tier in group
5. Potentially limit group based on max Tier of a member. (optional)

[Andrzej Lechrenski]

I know I don't write in about many of these things, but that's just because I don't like to whine as much as many other. However, I feel the need to respond after reading this post.

YES!!! DO THIS!

Privately, among my friends, limiting the group size and merging solo and group queues, has been exactly what I've been saying we needed all along. You 100% have my support behind this decision.

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

This is so extraordinarily stupid that I simply cannot imagine any other outcome than the absolute worst of what has been proposed, and in the worst possible way.

Because people who play the game don't get to see the same data they do, so what do they know. The data the absolute wins of decision making over the last few years have come from.

[IshanDeston]

Please do not put group que into solo que!

I do not want or need that abuse in my life (such as being mass reported by a group against solo players to make one example of many), and i do not wish to be forced to play against premade groups as solo player. I do neither have the time, nor desire, to find and maintain a group at this time of my life.

At least with 'sync' drops the chance of having all "friends" on the same team is no guarantee. We can't stop that, but that doesn't mean i want to play against organized groups.


At least let me opt out being put into group que as solo player!

Edited by IshanDeston, 21 April 2020 - 11:24 PM.

[General Solo]

Please don't combine QP and GQ please
Thats just bad
Why rekt the most populus and thus success full queue.

IMO make it 8man drops but limit it to four man groups
imo

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 21 April 2020 - 11:47 PM.

[ccrider]

What the hell, let's do this; allow groups into QP. While we're at it, put the escort Atlas in every match and mode and give him the Long Tom. I wanna watch it randomly nuke both sides.