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Modded Weapon Stats Not Appearing In Game? Tips?


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#1 Avimimus

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 10:06 AM

Hello,

So, I've loaded up the editor
1) Create new mod
2) Find the config tables for weapon states (TraceWeaponStats, ProjectileWeaponStats, MissileWeaponStats)
3) Edit the config files and click 'save as mod'
4) Select 'manage mod' and 'package mod'
5) Copy mod into the mods directory and activate

However the 'tooltips' don't show the new states, and the new stats clearly are not in game (I would notice the changes!)

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?




FYI - the mods I'm working on:

The actual rate of fire of weapons doesn't exist in the table top rules (well, except for a bit of fluff they all fire once per turn anyway)... so I'm creating a mod that lowers the rate of fire of all weapons (except machine guns and flamers)... and increases their damage and heat to compensate. This should up the skill requirements a bit. I'm also playing with the BV tables in hopes of producing more unpredictable missions and missions that can be accomplished without maxing out tonnage (yay lights!)

#2 VonBruinwald

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 11:12 AM

If you're modding to table top a couple of rules for weapon stats:

The damage as shown in table top is actually damage per turn:
One TT turn is 10 seconds
So your DPS of your weapons is TT-Damage/10.

The actual damage per projectile and and rof can be anything you like as long as it comes out as that DPS. That's why, in lore, ACs come in varying calibur but all fall under the same class (2/5/10/20).

The same thing also applies to heat.

#3 Koniving

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 11:50 AM

View PostAvimimus, on 24 May 2020 - 10:06 AM, said:

Hello,

So, I've loaded up the editor
1) Create new mod
2) Find the config tables for weapon states (TraceWeaponStats, ProjectileWeaponStats, MissileWeaponStats)
3) Edit the config files and click 'save as mod'
4) Select 'manage mod' and 'package mod'
5) Copy mod into the mods directory and activate

However the 'tooltips' don't show the new states, and the new stats clearly are not in game (I would notice the changes!)

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?


In order for the mod to function, it needs to be "baked". That is to say 'finalize' which then formats it so that the game recognizes it. I'm surprised the game lets you activate the mod without having done this, but understandably it won't work.

Also, did you change the weapon tables... or the weapon files themselves?
The weapon table is a source from which the weapons get base information, however that's only when you first make the weapon file and choose that... after that the information kept in the weapon file is 100% unique and separate from the weapon table.

Since you only worked with the tables, you literally changed nothing in the game itself without creating classes based on the edited table entries.

Also be warned, every update to the game will replace those tables so create backups of your changes.

Go into objects > Weapons > (Weapon type here) >
and open the individual weapon files to make your changes.

Edit the individual weapon files. If you edit/create weapons in the table, you need to create corresponding weapon files.

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Quote


The actual rate of fire of weapons doesn't exist in the table top rules (well, except for a bit of fluff they all fire once per turn anyway)... so I'm creating a mod that lowers the rate of fire of all weapons (except machine guns and flamers)... and increases their damage and heat to compensate. This should up the skill requirements a bit. I'm also playing with the BV tables in hopes of producing more unpredictable missions and missions that can be accomplished without maxing out tonnage (yay lights!)


So you're taking MW5's base AC/20 (for example) which deals 40-60 damage per ten seconds (making it an AC/40 / 60) and then upping its damage and heat but slowing down its firing rate so its still probably an AC/30-60 anyway...Interesting. However while that ups the skill, it also...really hurts your ability to deal with vehicles as they don't need much firepower but they need frequent abilities to fire to deal with them.


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To follow up on Von's post... Weapons in tabletop basically are queued once per turn in basic. With advanced rules, autocannons universally can squeeze out 1 use every 5 seconds however doing this could lead to jamming (minimum punishment; exploding maximum punishment).

(What separates the ultra ACs is that they're designed to do this, and the jam chances are significantly lower than standard ACs that are pushed to their limit; also Ultra ACs don't explode on you because the barrels don't melt from the stress).

When breaking down to 2.5 seconds per turn, the "use" rate gets a bit more interesting, but in general the fastest 'use' rate is once per 2.5 seconds, though most weapons require can't be used faster than 5 seconds from the last, and some like Gauss Rifles and PPCs can't be used within 7.5 seconds of the last use. Using the weapons that fast, however, can very quickly overwhelm your heatsinks in Solaris as it uses a times 4 rule (120 threshold, AC/2 produces 4 heat, medium laser produces 12, etc... basically divide that all by 4 and you get 30 threshold and 1 heat AC/2, 3 heat ML; it's all done so that you don't have to divide the heatsinks by 4 to account for heatsink cooling every 2.5 seconds.)

But yes, if you want it to translate back to tabletop, all it needs to do is tally the weapon's damage in around 5 seconds for advanced tabletop/solaris, or 10 seconds basic.

If you do aim for a ten second rule, you'll need to cut all mech health values in half, though, as otherwise they'll be so tanky you'll have 5+ minute battles with every single mech you encounter. (Learned this the hard way).

For fun, the Pontiac 100 AC/20 on the Victor and Yen Lo Wang pumps a 100 shells per trigger pull though the actual firing rate is unclear, and is always described as firing bursts that "slice", "streak" or "sweep" through mechs like a blade.

Edited by Koniving, 24 May 2020 - 12:01 PM.


#4 Avimimus

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Posted 25 May 2020 - 01:37 PM

View PostKoniving, on 24 May 2020 - 11:50 AM, said:


In order for the mod to function, it needs to be "baked". That is to say 'finalize' which then formats it so that the game recognizes it. I'm surprised the game lets you activate the mod without having done this, but understandably it won't work.

Also, did you change the weapon tables... or the weapon files themselves?
The weapon table is a source from which the weapons get base information, however that's only when you first make the weapon file and choose that... after that the information kept in the weapon file is 100% unique and separate from the weapon table.

Since you only worked with the tables, you literally changed nothing in the game itself without creating classes based on the edited table entries.

Also be warned, every update to the game will replace those tables so create backups of your changes.

Go into objects > Weapons > (Weapon type here) >
and open the individual weapon files to make your changes.

Edit the individual weapon files. If you edit/create weapons in the table, you need to create corresponding weapon files.


I'd assumed that 'packaging' the mod baked it? Or am I missing something? I tried reading the manual but I might've gotten this wrong!

Thanks for the help, by the way! It is very much appreciated (especially the warning about backups).



View PostKoniving, on 24 May 2020 - 11:50 AM, said:

For fun, the Pontiac 100 AC/20 on the Victor and Yen Lo Wang pumps a 100 shells per trigger pull though the actual firing rate is unclear, and is always described as firing bursts that "slice", "streak" or "sweep" through mechs like a blade.

View PostVonBruinwald, on 24 May 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

The actual damage per projectile and and rof can be anything you like as long as it comes out as that DPS. That's why, in lore, ACs come in varying calibur but all fall under the same class (2/5/10/20).


Yeah, it is one area where this game could get interesting... creating a slightly different weapon for each 'in lore' manufacturer.


View PostKoniving, on 24 May 2020 - 11:50 AM, said:

So you're taking MW5's base AC/20 (for example) which deals 40-60 damage per ten seconds (making it an AC/40 / 60) and then upping its damage and heat but slowing down its firing rate so its still probably an AC/30-60 anyway...Interesting. However while that ups the skill, it also...really hurts your ability to deal with vehicles as they don't need much firepower but they need frequent abilities to fire to deal with them.

View PostKoniving, on 24 May 2020 - 11:50 AM, said:

But yes, if you want it to translate back to tabletop, all it needs to do is tally the weapon's damage in around 5 seconds for advanced tabletop/solaris, or 10 seconds basic.

If you do aim for a ten second rule, you'll need to cut all mech health values in half, though, as otherwise they'll be so tanky you'll have 5+ minute battles with every single mech you encounter. (Learned this the hard way).


There is an upper limit to how much one can reduce the rate of fire... because at some point the increased heat leads to shut-down potentially occurring with a single weapon shot... however, there is quite a bit of room to lower the rate of fire.

I think it is interesting because it makes 'each shot count'. It also requires some thought regarding which weapons to use due to the ability to engage multiple targets... one can fire on an assault mech with a PPC in hopes of producing a weak spot, and then switch to small lasers to engage a tank while your PPC will still be charging in the background... In comparison, in an unmodded game you're basically busy throwing everything you have at most targets and engaging one target at a time (rather than alternating).

As for tabletop values - I think someone else can be a purist! I actually have a tendency to prefer to go even further from tabletop in having a shorter time-to-kill than even MW5 has (something like 1/2 what it is in the default game). In my Starsiege mod I increased weapon firepower by 2.25x and then rebalanced... it was really interesting. This tendency is one reason why I'm exploring the mission BV tables... as one can't take on as many enemies if they can all kill you fairly quickly.

My rationalisation/excuse is that tabletop represents a civilian game in-universe, and the actual combat is less ablative and hitpointy... (as can be seen in the novels). So I see the plethora of weapons festooning a mech as a way to engage different types of targets better, using a specialised weapon for each, rather than as a way to increase firepower overall.

My preferred house-rules would actually be:
- to have an additional LOS check that each turn, if failed, prevents firing at all on the target using any weapon (and which is less likely to succeed against smaller targets).
- to have a penalty for firing a mixture of weapons (similar to the multiple target penalty, with a to-hit penalty for firing with two types of weapons, and a stronger one for three or more weapons).
- to increase crit-chances (i.e. all hits potentially crit, weapons with crit bonuses increase the crit chance).

I really should learn some java so I can try coding these rules into megamek Posted Image Ah, so many ambitions and so little time!

Edited by Avimimus, 25 May 2020 - 01:37 PM.


#5 Koniving

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Posted 26 May 2020 - 11:04 AM

View PostAvimimus, on 25 May 2020 - 01:37 PM, said:


I'd assumed that 'packaging' the mod baked it? Or am I missing something? I tried reading the manual but I might've gotten this wrong!

Thanks for the help, by the way! It is very much appreciated (especially the warning about backups).



People often forget to package them but that's covered.
The other specific issue I gathered from the original post is you edited the tables but not the individual weapon files.
Think of it this way, you redefined the definition of a pistol in the encyclopedia and created a hand-held nuclear missile launcher.

But a Desert Eagle is still a Desert Eagle, a Six Action Army is still a Six Action Army, and a Mauser is still a Mauser...because they are already made based on the old definition of what a pistol is.

You need to open the individual files such as the Chemjet AC/20 Class 0 and then rework the stats there instead of the tables where it simply has "This is the definition of an AC/20." Since the individual weapon files already exist, they don't care if you redefine what the gun is because the gun already exists based on the old definition.

Quote

Yeah, it is one area where this game could get interesting... creating a slightly different weapon for each 'in lore' manufacturer.

I'm on hiatus for my mod as I'm waiting for specific modding features to be fully implemented but I've got a lot of progress on a mod specifically about that, where the weapon differences are based on the weapon definition that a weapon classification requires that it can do approximately W damage for approximately X heat within Y amount of time and repeat within Z amount of time, in which Y is any time under 5 seconds and Z is any time under 10 seconds.

As an example, the 40mm Pontiac Light [AC/5] can deliver 25 shots in a very short period of time (less than 2 seconds), at 0.25 damage per shot (accumulating 6.25 damage) and fires like a Vulcan cannon. The recoil is barely noticeable but the spread is a little wide. Pontiac has a secondary feed which can allow it to fire again while the primary feed is reloading, but doing so significantly increases the chance of jamming it. It uses 40mm ammo, of which there's a universal 40mm standard ammo that can be used for any 40mm AC, of which there are AC/2 through AC/20

Meanwhile the infamous GM Whirlwind/5 (specifically the 120mm) model can deliver a magazine of 3 shells at what lore calls a painfully slow firing rate of 4 shells per second (so 0.75 seconds). The higher caliber weapon has heavier recoil and therefore can spread if you don't fight that recoil to keep on target (which required a special script to get real recoil as MW5's camera "recoil" is not recoil and actually has no effect on aim). Its hits are hefty at 1.67 damage at 5.01 damage. Each individual hit pays off much better but collectively isn't as powerful as the spray-and-pray Pontiac. The GM Whirlwind is also considered reliable, being unable to fire to the point of the weapon itself overheating (while the Pontiac can be fired into a barrel-melting permanent jam if you keep pushing it). The Whirlwind/5 120mm uses 120mm ammo which can be universally used for any 120mm AC. Of which there are no AC/2s using this ammo caliber. The model also comes in 50mm, 60mm, and 90mm versions.


Quote

There is an upper limit to how much one can [increase] the rate of fire... because at some point the increased heat leads to shut-down potentially occurring with a single weapon shot... however, there is quite a bit of room to lower the rate of fire.

It depends on if you're exclusively tinkering with the firing rate, if you're tinkering with the entire weapon.

For example, MW5 has the Pontiac 100 as a single shot gun, when actually the Pontiac series are multi-barrel vulcan cannons with an armored shell that looks like a single large barrel, firing 40mm shells according to Illusions of Victory. (Note my 100 shell damage rating of the Pontiac 100's vulcan cannon is an over-simplification, because actually the 3 tons of ammunition are written as a very specific value over 3,000 shots.. where one rating of damage is X shots = 20 damage and there's 5 ratings of damage per ton of ammo, if you have 3,000 shots for 3 tons, 1 ton is 1,000 shots and 1,000 / 5 = 200 shots to net 20 damage.. and it's over 3,000...)

So in order to increase the firing rate of the Pontiac 100 from a single shot to a bunch without massive overheat or being massively overpowered... one must reduce the damage and heat per shot, give it an ammunition value that compensates for the fact that it will be consuming shots like crazy (or you can make it burst fire and tell it to not consume additional damage after the first shot in the burst). In my case I reworked the weapons from the ground up. But, effectively, despite pumping out 50 shots per trigger pull (100 must be done within the required time frame to achieve its tabletop damage rating, and it can be pushed at risk of jamming to permanent jamming to 200 within that time frame), you'll only get 7 heat for 100 shots at 0.08 heat per shot. Meanwhile an Armstrong Requiem (random 120mm AC/20 I picked out) can only do 12 shots for 7 heat at 0.66667 heat per shot. (Understandably each has its own balancing benefits.)

TL;DR: You can near infinitely increase the firing rate if you decrease the heat and damage per shot to balance the scale, and still have an AC/20 be an AC/20. You just have to rework more than just the firing rate, or it'll be both insanely overpowered and potentially insta-gib yourself (had that happen).


Quote

I think it is interesting because it makes 'each shot count'. It also requires some thought regarding which weapons to use due to the ability to engage multiple targets... one can fire on an assault mech with a PPC in hopes of producing a weak spot, and then switch to small lasers to engage a tank while your PPC will still be charging in the background... In comparison, in an unmodded game you're basically busy throwing everything you have at most targets and engaging one target at a time (rather than alternating).

Such has value. Generally you want to engage individual targets at a time in the game anyway; I usually focus down vehicles until the vehicles are gone and ignore mechs due to how the AI works but that's just exploiting the game's flaws. But as for what you're saying, I perfectly understand that. But slower firing rates across the board produces its own troubles. I would encourage ensuring your weapons have a variety so that you can opt to use whichever weapon best suits your need at a given time.

To provide slower firing examples from what I was doing with my own mod...

PPCs in lore are referred to as massively powerful 'siege cannons' that can do things in a single blow that most other weapons cannot. Obliterate and vaporize parts while still having a shoving kinetic impact. Yet the AC/10 says "hi, I can do 10 damage too so what's so special about you?" Fluff-wise though the PPC is superior per shot and a significantly stronger adversary to face than an AC/10. Ever thought as to why?

Let's continue with that thought. Gauss Rifles -- until better weapons are made -- are the single most powerful weapons that can be put into a mech.... even though an AC/20 can clearly outdo the Gauss Rifle because 20 is greater than 15... the thing is... no AC actually is one-shot does all the damage in BT lore. There are automatic, burst-fire, and semi-automatic autocannons, but nothing is a 'super-duper mega cannon', because Rifles (the super-duper-mega-cannons) kinda stopped getting used by the military because they were too slow to fire and not effective enough with their ammunition being too heavy. So in my case, Gauss Rifles and PPCs are slow to fire again and hit like a ton of bricks; in fact, if knockdowns were possible in Mw5's current implementation getting hit with a few of these would send you flying (the Gauss Rifles I made can easily launch lighter mech corpses through the air so killing blows are hugely satisfying). Meanwhile my autocannons vary in firing rate with various traits to help differentiate them and are tied to different factions. There are big-bullet ACs, but nothing that does more than 10 damage in a single blow and the recoil on that is...strong. Also Demolisher tanks in my case are considerably more terrifying, as the Chemjet Gun's noted for indirect fire, meaning they can use it like artillery and fire over things as well as directly at you, in addition to it being one of the highest caliber ACs in existence, though there's a hover tank with a 200mm AC/20, so... deadly things are afoot. But, the "big OOF!" cannons are the Rifles that I have littered about civilian/raider sectors in the periphery, low ammo, big impact, deadlier when your armor is already gone.

The end result combined with reworking health values/etc. (otherwise TTK would be insanely high) is an interestingly variable TTK that can be significantly shorter (1x armor/structure Atlas 306 armor standard against Gauss Rifles as opposed to 2x armor/structure 612 armor standard Atlas), but also fashionably longer just depending on what you're up against and how you defend against it. Evading the hefty blows is significantly more important, while one can tank and spread the wimpy rapid blows (though if you don't spread the damage you'll find yourself dead real damn quick).

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Also, you might be interested to learn that MW5 has armor penetration rules and code that the weapons and armor can use, but they're half-finished due to being abandoned so learning some scripting knowledge might be useful. :)





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