37 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

LordNothing, on 29 May 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

what i mean to say was a third of that team wasn't pulling its weight. never underestimate the damage a 4-man wolf pack can do to the assault lance.

If both the Lights and the Assaults are piloted by people with poor marksmanship skills, yeah. Because the Assaults will just repeatedly whiff their shots and overheat while the Lights pour it on. That's one of the main reasons why players at the lower skill level can feel like Light mechs are overpowered.

On the other hand, if the Assault pilots have good aim (and patient shot selection, in order to take more efficient shots) and cover each other's blind arcs, they'll smash the Lights.

[Jackal Noble]

Y E O N N E, on 31 May 2020 - 06:31 AM, said:

Considering two of them are gimp variants and none of them is me, outcome is not surprising.

This comment has been approved.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Jackal Noble, on 27 May 2020 - 02:38 AM, said:

You don't have to guess. Thanks mm, keep up the stellar work. Thanks for all the fish.
290 tons from the onset. Even with a disconnected Highlander, team is still 200 tons up.

You played a game and one team won. I played a game where the weights were perfectly balanced and still one team won by a land slide.
Shocking.

One example says nothing.

By the way, I am pretty sure that you can predict the outcome of the match by checking the amount of default-green color on the mechs of each team. Should the MM balance for that too?

[Jackal Noble]

ShiverMeRivets, on 01 June 2020 - 04:45 AM, said:

You played a game and one team won. I played a game where the weights were perfectly balanced and still one team won by a land slide.
Shocking.

One example says nothing.

By the way, I am pretty sure that you can predict the outcome of the match by checking the amount of default-green color on the mechs of each team. Should the MM balance for that too?

You are correct, it was one example. However, it was one example that showed a very large disparity in drop weight tonnage, while also not having players of skill to balance that out.
Yes losses happen, and are often outside of your control. My point was the weight tonnage disparity on top of that made the situation down right ridiculous.
I have witnessed a couple of other weight skewed games (and posted about it, so that makes 2 examples!!) but this one took the cake.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 01 June 2020 - 12:14 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

ShiverMeRivets, on 01 June 2020 - 04:45 AM, said:

You played a game and one team won. I played a game where the weights were perfectly balanced and still one team won by a land slide.
Shocking.

One example says nothing.

By the way, I am pretty sure that you can predict the outcome of the match by checking the amount of default-green color on the mechs of each team. Should the MM balance for that too?

here ya go, here's another one of a similar vein. The point is the tonnage disparity seems to be a very strong modifier relative to others. Skill wise the gap wasn't great either, despite our team having a decent couple of players, one lance in particular (group) was abysmal.

270 additional tons, this time all active, is 2 annihilators and a warhammer/grasshopper/novacat/sunspider. Or 12 - 75 ton mechs.

[thievingmagpi]

lol @ alpha lance

Average 90 percentile vs Average 47

Edited by thievingmagpi, 02 June 2020 - 08:01 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

thievingmagpi, on 02 June 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

lol @ alpha lance

Average 90 percentile vs Average 47

blow it up to both teams and it comes out to ~76% vs 69%

Edited by Jackal Noble, 02 June 2020 - 08:15 PM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Jackal Noble, on 02 June 2020 - 07:57 PM, said:

here ya go, here's another one of a similar vein. The point is the tonnage disparity seems to be a very strong modifier relative to others. Skill wise the gap wasn't great either, despite our team having a decent couple of players, one lance in particular (group) was abysmal.

270 additional tons, this time all active, is 2 annihilators and a warhammer/grasshopper/novacat/sunspider. Or 12 - 75 ton mechs.

The enemy team alpha lance obviously had a 3 or 4 players group (3 warhammers). They were responsible for 60% of the kills on their side and a good fraction of the damage, so competent players. I dare to gamble on their side even if the tonnage were similar.

[Kosomok]

On the flip side, I was in a match recently where one side had no assaults (was mostly medium and light) versus a full assault lance plus a mix of others. Wish I had SS the final tally.

It ended up being a stomp, only the side with the assaults got stomped. On the Polar map no less, with its long sightlines.

Probably came down to comparative skill levels and/or experience.

Granted, given equal skill/experience the heavier side SHOULD win and often easily.

[Volume]

Had this gem earlier. Shout out to the excellent Vulcan pilots, but tonnage is the great equalizer when it's 825 vs 660.

Team 1: 0 lights, 4 mediums, 4 heavies, 4 assaults
Team 2: 2 lights, 5 mediums, 3 heavies, 2 assaults

It doesn't even look "That bad" until you realize that a Warhawk isn't exactly a brawler, and the two lights are a Flea and Osiris, not, say, a Cougar or Wolfhound Grinner



For what it's worth, I think the matchmaker is giving less terrible matches than it was a few weeks ago... I was getting things like 7 assaults vs 2, or 5 assaults vs 0, on maps like Solaris, in Domination. That said, it's still quite awful, and I don't know how this is "better" than waiting an extra 30 seconds for a drop.

[R Valentine]

Tonnage is a losers excuse. My regular crew drops 100+ under as a 4 man and doesn't have any problem farming W/L ratio. The problem is you, not your weight.

Why would you engage in "murder ball" tactics if your murder ball is more like a murder BB? Harass, spread, kite, isolate, and destroy. Don't smash headlong into the enemy 12 man or run in circles around the center of the map where you risk them just turning around and blapping you. If your drop is light you have to play the long game.

[Jackal Noble]

Kiran Yagami, on 16 June 2020 - 07:20 AM, said:

Tonnage is a losers excuse. My regular crew drops 100+ under as a 4 man and doesn't have any problem farming W/L ratio. The problem is you, not your weight.

Why would you engage in "murder ball" tactics if your murder ball is more like a murder BB? Harass, spread, kite, isolate, and destroy. Don't smash headlong into the enemy 12 man or run in circles around the center of the map where you risk them just turning around and blapping you. If your drop is light you have to play the long game.

[Redacted]. You do realize my OP, and subsequent screen is from solo play. The entire point that a few [Redacted] individuals can’t seem to get is that WEIGHT a factor just like SKILL is. Weight is obviously not as strong as skill, and as such a group of uber mouse clickers like yours can prevail. Good job have cookie, you still missed the point. In fact I would go further and say that your point a view is skewed by having the group mentality. I drop primarily solo, this is a solo drop post. I can control my skill, but I can’t control whether my team is going to drop 300 tons light and suck - I would prefer my team be close to tonnage to have some armor if they are going to suck.

There is nothing wrong with dropping in group and doing very well, but to then go ahead and attribute that because your group does very well when it’s undertonned vs any and all other groups that drop undertonned is incredibly dense and frankly disappointing to hear coming from you. My OP was about match quality and how, on average, it would go up when matches are closer in tonnage.

Edited by GM Patience, 17 June 2020 - 02:44 PM.

[R Valentine]

Jackal Noble, on 16 June 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

LUL I'm hurt.

There is nothing wrong with dropping in group and doing very well, but to then go ahead and attribute that because your group does very well when it’s undertonned vs any and all other groups that drop undertonned is incredibly dense and frankly disappointing to hear coming from you. My OP was about match quality and how, on average, it would go up when matches are closer in tonnage.

[Redacted]. Your first paragraph isn't even worth finishing. I'll skip to the second.

The "tab" key is a thing. You can tell exactly what the relative weight of your team is before the match even starts. If you're dropping solo, that screen is all the more important. How you play should differ depending on the relative weight of your team. That's no secret. If your team is light, you need to play more in skirmishes than seeking early, outright confrontation. If you play every match the same then seeing a difference on how your team performs based on weight is no surprise at all. Match quality goes up when everyone understands the game. You clearly have no desire to.

[Jackal Noble]

Kiran Yagami, on 16 June 2020 - 11:32 AM, said:

[Redacted].Your first paragraph isn't even worth finishing. I'll skip to the second.

The "tab" key is a thing. You can tell exactly what the relative weight of your team is before the match even starts. If you're dropping solo, that screen is all the more important. How you play should differ depending on the relative weight of your team. That's no secret. If your team is light, you need to play more in skirmishes than seeking early, outright confrontation. If you play every match the same then seeing a difference on how your team performs based on weight is no surprise at all. Match quality goes up when everyone understands the game. You clearly have no desire to.

It's like you go from one bad misconception to another.

[Redacted]
My performance is obviously in some margin tied to how well the team does, but in both provided examples of my losing team I did okay all things considered( PXH, COR), but thanks for the super advice. I am by nature a team player, and will often do what needs to be done if it helps others.
That is beside the point.

The only point of this entire thread was that in a dynamic setting of group and solo players dropping together, that weight is a factor much like skill - further if the team with the most skilled players also has the most weight then it is even more so.

So, in short, it's ignorant to say that a game where I'm a random player dropping in on a team that is deficient by a large tonnage gap is non-factor.

[Redacted]

Edited by GM Patience, 17 June 2020 - 02:47 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Thought it got backside adjusted. guess not. dafuq
PSA - IF YOU ARE DROPPING IN A GROUP, USE THAT TONNAGE. At the very least, if you are average and dropping group please try to at most only leave 10-15 tons max available at most. for serious. Match dynamics aside, it can make a difference. Not even sure what happened on second match, as no clear grouping apparent.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 25 June 2020 - 12:49 AM.

[Willard Phule]

You do realize that the MM doesn't bother to look at the tonnage when assigning a premade group to a team, right? That's why the team with the premade also tends to be the one with all the assaults.

Working as intended, to guarantee that 95% stomp rate we're looking for.

[Volume]

This one might be the most egregious I've seen yet - a 295 ton difference. 855 tons vs 560.

Team 1: 4 assaults, 5 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 light.
Team 2: 1 assault, 1 heavy, 5 mediums, 5 lights

Perhaps with some perfect coordination and tactics this could've been a capture win, or a light mech wolfpack taking down isolated assaults.
What ended up happening was a simple push with two fafnirs dropping double Hgauss into lights and mediums instakilling them. In an armor and numbers game, it's pretty clear.

Edited by Volume, 26 June 2020 - 04:50 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Yeesh