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Re-Understanding Mwo And Mw5

Balance General Gameplay

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#1 SoukouKiheiVOTOMS

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 10:33 AM

Hello,

This is the first time I have ever really posted something in length about video games, so please bear with me. I my ideas will lead to a productive discussion and that they were conveyed clearly enough for everyone to understand. Many will entirely disagree with what I have to say or may be offended. I apologize ahead of time. I do appreciate you reading this.

I believe MWO/MW5 has great potential in becoming a well-refined, widely-accepted, and immersive game. Surprisingly, it's origins as a tabletop game set in the BatteTech Universe (BTU) lends itself to appropriate strategic and tactical options that are simply not existent in other FPS games. It is the amalgamation of several features that give this game incredible potential: section-based armor and structure targeting, hard-points, weapon weight, chassis weight, engine configurations, heat management, range modifiers, weapon classes, electronic warfare systems, modules, mobility, climate, terrain, and extensive lore. For nearly a decade, PGI has done an excellent job of packaging all of these features into a reasonably enjoyable multiplayer experience in the form of MWO.

Credit is also due to PGI for reviving enough interest in the BTU, enabling the financing and development of BattleTech (Paradox and Harebrained Schemes) and MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries (PGI). MWO in particular has enjoyed far greater success compared to other mech-based games i.e., Hawken, Titanfall 1&2, Brigador, AirMech Strike, etc. However, no one denies that MWO's player count is hemorrhaging and that all three games have lukewarm reviews. Nothing bad, but nothing to write home about. Moreover, it is precisely this cycle of doing, 'okay,' that many loyal fans want to break out of. Personally, I do not want this universe to enter the realm of Warhammer (sorry guys), whereby dozens of mediocre games are published on Steam. Quite honestly, BTU does not have the fandom size of Warhammer and our (literal) aging population does not allow us the flexibility to financially sustain this franchise.

Nonetheless, PGI has the capability of not only extending the franchise's lifetime, but further its commercial success. In order to do this, PGI will need to rely on the core features that distinguishes MWO and BTU from other genres; this primarily centers on the concept of the 'thinking-man's shooter,' which requires an immediate re-understanding. I argue that MWO's current state is a pseudo version of the 'thinking-man's shooter.' The current implementations of the aforementioned features in the second paragraph serve to as difficulty modifiers that limit the FPS nature of the game. Rather than serving to enhance the capabilities of engaging the opposing force, they often serve as the boundaries of limitation for attack. Hence, the common tropes of the game are NASCAR and non-existent team-work, which have continuously plagued the game since its inception.

Moreover, the implementation of many electronic warfare systems and communication have not been integrated in such a way that encourages overlapping builds and coordination. Instead, the design of the game is heavily centered on the modification of mechs on an individual basis, rather than their role within the lance. This has led to bland, unoriginal, and (unfortunately) necessary boating. This further damages any chance of communications, since the only command needed is to focus fire on a single target. The use of tactics are not necessary, since there is no incentive to operate as a team. Even stomps are just manifestations of numerical superiority on a particular angle of an enemy position.

Often, the solution to resolving these issues are the implementation of financial rewards, i.e. AMS, Lance grouping, ECM coverage, etc. All of these rewards are simply modifiers that do not reflect on actual in-game tactics. You cannot incentive through reward. It must be an integral part of conducting warfare. Currently, the game's current design is totally centered on the direct and physical destruction of the opposing force by a collection of individuals that are engaged in this task.

It is precisely that reason for the failure of Faction War. Despite the objectives suggesting you capture X or destroy Y, it is quite literally far more favorable to simply agree to kill each other. Furthermore, the capture of specific planets or zones does not provide an overarching benefit to the conduct of operations on a strategic scale. In fact, they are nothing like the lore or real warfare. There are no 'armies' or 'fleets,' just a collection of individuals, signing up for a bonus to join a particular faction and going at it. Sadly, this takes away from the potential for social engagement for the game.

All of this takes away from what BTU excels at: immersion. Without an overarching theme of teamwork, loyalty, tactics, and strategy, the game will always be hollow. I believe MW5 shows that soundtracks, graphics, complicated in-game finances, and particle physics aren't what make games truly standout. A return to the basic tenants of what makes the BTU franchise great are what will guarantee the continued success of not only the BTU franchise, but the continued enjoyment of current and future fans alike.

There are so many more things I'd like to write about. Perhaps I will in the future. I had taken a recent two-month break. Having come back, I still love the game but I want more out of it. I am a younger fan and MWO was what brought me into the BTU. Thank you for reading!

Edited by SoukouKiheiVOTOMS, 28 May 2020 - 10:36 AM.


#2 Zirconium Kaze

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 10:41 AM

Great post. I genuinely believe that the closer the game is to table top rules, the better it will become.

#3 Ryokens leap

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 10:53 AM

OP I don’t think you fully understand what the community has had to deal with in regards to the brain trust at PGI. They have driven so much of the population away by shootings themselves in the foot with their own mouths and arrogance. It’s way too far down the rabbit hole at this point that I don’t believe it can be brought back to what it once was or could have been.

#4 SoukouKiheiVOTOMS

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 11:00 AM

View PostRyokens leap, on 28 May 2020 - 10:53 AM, said:

OP I don’t think you fully understand what the community has had to deal with in regards to the brain trust at PGI. They have driven so much of the population away by shootings themselves in the foot with their own mouths and arrogance. It’s way too far down the rabbit hole at this point that I don’t believe it can be brought back to what it once was or could have been.


I've been here since the earlier release of the game. I understand how you feel, I myself agree they have done some ridiculous things. However, it's far more productive to cooperate with them in the aim of sustaining the game/franchise. Also, I do believe that most of the necessary changes are better off made in a new iteration of the game.

#5 letir

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 11:03 AM

View PostZirconium Kaze, on 28 May 2020 - 10:41 AM, said:

Great post. I genuinely believe that the closer the game is to table top rules, the better it will become.

I don't want to play FPS with tabletop accuracy, thank you very much. Knockdowns also didn't last in MWO.

#6 SoukouKiheiVOTOMS

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 11:07 AM

View Postletir, on 28 May 2020 - 11:03 AM, said:

I don't want to play FPS with tabletop accuracy, thank you very much. Knockdowns also didn't last in MWO.


I do not necessarily believe in FPS with tabletop accuracy, as I would point out that would return us to the artificial difficulty modifiers. Better to focus on enabling team work and electronics warfare to flesh out the potential this game has to become the 'thinking man's shooter.' Having the flexibility to engage the enemy with multiple venues of attack, enabled by said electronics warfare and lance balance. Hope that kind of makes sense.

#7 Gagis

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 11:47 AM

The board game doesn't really even have this degree of nuance to it.

However, if you bother to play with an actual team against other actual teams, you will find tactics in MWO.

#8 Zirconium Kaze

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 12:52 PM

View Postletir, on 28 May 2020 - 11:03 AM, said:

I don't want to play FPS with tabletop accuracy, thank you very much. Knockdowns also didn't last in MWO.

That's part of the problem with mwo. Changing things for the sake of balance and what comes out is just a different imbalance as it's impossible to stop. The game was and will be better the closer it is to tt rules.

Edited by Zirconium Kaze, 28 May 2020 - 12:53 PM.


#9 Bud Crue

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 01:10 PM

View PostZirconium Kaze, on 28 May 2020 - 12:52 PM, said:

The game was and will be better the closer it is to tt rules.


Can you expound on this "was" aspect?

When was MWO's underlying accuracy mechanics and/or hit location determination anything remotely close to TT rules? I mean, when I played TT it wasn't unusual for a player to go on a bad streak and roll a bunch of crap roles, and then, all of a sudden, go on a run of high roles. Yet, I have never seen a player go from shooting the terrain, shot after shot, to suddenly getting a bunch of head shots and CT crits, out of the blue; which most certainly can happen in TT. When was MWO ever like this? A wasn't around as a player for closed beta but I have seen videos of that time, and even then I don't recall the sort of randomness that TT accuracy rules allow for.

Is there some other aspect of TT rules that you are saying MWO was more akin to at some point? Like before ghost heat, or back when JJ were good? That sort of "closer to TT" thing I can recall and see being appealing if PGI played with the values to get us closer to it, but other than that, I am at a loss of wen this game "was" closer to TT rules and better for it.

#10 FRAGTAST1C

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 06:43 PM

Quite frankly, remove the TT rules and MWO will be much better. Better yet, stop nerfing things but instead elevate the bad to becoming viable. That way, everything will be fun (re: Kodiak).

MW5 failed 'cause everything about was average at best. Shooting mechs might be good at times but as a single player game, it needs to have a memorable story, characters and presentation. It doesn't have that. AT ALL. Hiring Adam Jensen to voice an old man's bust isn't called creating a memorable character.

As for the people thinking that electronic warfare systems and blah blah to create roles in a lance... just stop. You do not know what the game's about. MWO is a shooter with the capacity to create some of the best co-ordinated gameplay. You want something else, play Roguetech.

#11 Leone

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 07:31 PM

View PostSoukouKiheiVOTOMS, on 28 May 2020 - 10:33 AM, said:

Often, the solution to resolving these issues are the implementation of financial rewards, i.e. AMS, Lance grouping, ECM coverage, etc. All of these rewards are simply modifiers that do not reflect on actual in-game tactics. You cannot incentive through reward. It must be an integral part of conducting warfare. Currently, the game's current design is totally centered on the direct and physical destruction of the opposing force by a collection of individuals that are engaged in this task.


I have nearly half a million Cbills, and 54 hundred General SP. I do not care about flimsy 'rewards'. I will continue to play to have fun, and currently, in community warfare, we hafta wait a while between matches, so when we do get a fight, you bet I'm going to enjoy it rather'n trying to 'dunk' a match as fast as possible.

That said, there are plenty of tactics and thinking being used. Heck, last match I had, I got a four man unit who managed to get the pugs to form up with us and we were even rotating mechs and sharing armour, we just, you know, didn't need to call it. We had at least six CW vets in that match and I swear it was like tromping about with my unit like the good old days.

The problem with MWO is that the tactics and communication relies on other people, and people, sadly, do not often measure up to what I've gotten used to. Ooh, Match! Try more Community Warefare!

~Leone.

#12 kalashnikity

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Posted 29 June 2020 - 11:23 PM

You can't have a mix of clan and IS mechs/weapons using TT rules, and still expect people to bring IS tech to the fight. That's where the balance comes in.

It would be interesting if you actually had to have the proper electronics to "share" targeting data. That would force people to use team elements in their builds.

Introducing random spawn points and new maps would go a long ways to making the game more interesting. I've not been playing long, but it's pretty shocking to see people who simply know where everybody spawns for each game mode on each map. Which tells me there is a problem.

Doing group Q in QP really shook things up, I like that. Needs shook up some more.

We should have even more randomness spawn points.

And seriously, how hard is it to make a new map? Or maybe allow CW/FP maps in QP...

#13 Bistrorider

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 12:43 AM

View Postkalashnikity, on 29 June 2020 - 11:23 PM, said:

Doing group Q in QP really shook things up, I like that. Needs shook up some more.

We should have even more randomness spawn points.
And seriously, how hard is it to make a new map? Or maybe allow CW/FP maps in QP...


Yeah, I like that too. Still think 4 mechs group in QP is too much. For me it should be one 2 mechs group for every side. But whatever. Right now it's more random. It's like little new QP. I'm running left side or right side at Mining to fight some lights with my light and I'm meeting... assault. Teams are unbalanced sometimes. (Like "heavy" group of 4 mechs, plus 2-3 assaults from solo's at one team). Kinda challenge to fight sucha team. But sometimes heavy drop works against sucha team.

It will be funny mix. New PSR system and groups in QP. We will see who is greedyPosted Image

#14 Anjian

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 01:34 AM

Quote

Credit is also due to PGI for reviving enough interest in the BTU, enabling the financing and development of BattleTech (Paradox and Harebrained Schemes) and MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries (PGI). MWO in particular has enjoyed far greater success compared to other mech-based games i.e., Hawken, Titanfall 1&2, Brigador, AirMech Strike, etc.


If you compare MWO to War Robots, the success is like an ant to an elephant. Sort like MWO is like AOL and WR became Facebook. How a no lore, no one knows mobile game become a thriving franchise of its own, top 100 in the Google Pay gross revenue which is probably worth at least over ten million each month, with over a hundred million downloads, that alone is worth a text book study. There is certainly a very long list of lessons you can learn from. Worth studying why that game became very successful such as its great clan support, objective based game modes with respawns, while omitting its bad points because there are also plenty of bad things like monetization tricks. But it does take its enormous revenue and route that into making new content --- mechs, maps, game modes, even a graphics revamp --- and advertising in social media, promoting its YouTubers and Twitch streamers and so on. The game is successful in the end because it is constantly and relentlessly improving, although I feel that some changes are not for the better.

You do not need to tie a future MW game to table top MW rules. You can tie some for authenticity and franchise consistency, but the most important thing a game needs to be is be simple, be fun, make it easy and accessible to play stomping robots bashing each other.

By far the greatest number of players you will ever get in any new mech game won't even know what Battletech or Mechwarrior is, but they will likely know what Gundam is. If you are going to build a large enough player base, you are going to realize that the vast majority of these players are millennials that won't know BT, or care, they just want to stomp and sock big robots. It will have to take time for them to learn and wean them into the franchise. But you have to succeed in the basics first, to make a game that is easy, accessible, fun and delivers the stomp and sock'em big robot experience you are selling them.

Edited by Anjian, 30 June 2020 - 01:37 AM.


#15 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 03:22 AM

OP, nice write up but how about providing a few examples instead of generalization?

Example TT rules - 3 engine crits destroys/kills the engine. isXL dead with ST lost while LFE/cXL has all of its armor removed from L/R and C Torso. Sticking to that specific sub-rule while allowing everything else go.. Nor do I believe PGI could introduced a valid, robust enough crit system. Remove the 3 and ya out while keeping with the spirit of the rules, that affects heat and movement. Including Movement because PGI barely uses the BT Heat Bar as it is, but change in heat capacity, it is closer to the spirit of the game. But even with high heat, pilots are not losing conscious due to heat.... :)

Fine for TT rules where the roll of the dice determines hit/miss, then if hit what location is hit. With MWO, even if a minimum COF, one would still be able to hit the location being aimed out, moreso as the range dropped. It would be a long/extreme range that it might become difficult hitting the target. Lights would have a field day, regardless.

There are a lot of TT rules which do not translate well in a FPS since it is a human being doing the aiming and not a computer system vs another computer system is causing tis own mech to performing evasive maneuvers for incoming fire. Keep the spirit while interpreting the rules

#16 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:35 PM

by TT rules im not thinking to the abstrakt fire&Hit System and more to the World of BT ...Planets with Garrisons and wear and tear in the planetary battles over the Time, when you have only 3 Heavy Mechs of a Planet ,you can only use 3 Heavy mechs

sieges of systems and Planets with simulated Fleets,and dropships

Jumplines and Droptimes

Planets with Factorys thats have a sense in the Game -conqust Planet A to build a Specific Chassies or Weapons, lost a AmmunitionFactory for example and you Team have only 2t AK5 Ammunition or LSR



MWO is dead and now all only interesting for a MWO2.0 in Future with the UE5

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 01 July 2020 - 02:36 AM.






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