19 replies to this topic

[Bistrorider]

I'm gonna put it here, because topic is hot:


Somehow new challenge...

But

New PSR values:
Player LOSES:
Match Score: 0-100 goes down in PSR by -5
Match Score: 101-250 goes down in PSR by -3
Match Score: 251-400 goes down in PSR by -1
Match Score: 401+ does not move.

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

MATCH SCORE 401 + SHOULD BE +1

OTHERWISE PLAYERS WHO PERFORM GOOD WILL ALWAYS BE PUNISHED. IT WILL BE DISHEARTENING AND PEOPLE WILL STOP PLAYING BECAUSE WHATEVER THEY PERFORMANCE AND SKILL WILL BE THEY WILL LAND IN A GARBAGE AFTER LOST MATCH.

ALSO THIS:

Player WINS:
Match Score: 0-100 does not move.

CONSIDER THIS TO BE -1. CONSIDER RESIGNING FROM OPTION THAT TIER DOESN'T MOVE. GO PLUS OR MINUS ONLY. IT WILL BE GOOD IN TERMS OF THOSE WHO GO AFK AND DONT GIVE A SH+T. OR THOSE WHO CLOWN AROUND ALL THE TIME.

End of a message

[VonBruinwald]

If you are consistently scoring +400MS on the losing team the question becomes how? You're either playing in the wrong tier or not contributing to the team effort and instead leaching of their work to pad your stats.

Try to remember, PSR is a match making feature, not a reward system, it's not about being good or bad, it's about being placed against equally competent players (unless you're into ePeens).

[Bistrorider]

How? It happens. Of course also due to leaching and stats pad but also beacuse someone play good or better that the rest of the team. Sometimes it's very hard to go 400 matchscore in lost match, whatever you do, however you play. So I see it as +1. It's impossible to reconcile it all. And for me it is still a reward/punish system. You all talking like you want that Tier means something. And now I'm saying: Lets go plus or minus only. And you: It's not about a reward. Well, if it's not about the reward why we have charts and points in sport? That update is ridiculous right now. I just feel I'm very right in that case. If you go up or down in ranks it's always somehow reward or punishment. It's always some motivation to play. Besides why the hell not? Better dynamic when there is only plus and minus.

Edited by Bistrorider, 05 June 2020 - 04:52 AM.

[letir]

Agreed.

400 points is good stat, especially when your team get stomped hard. It shouldn't be penalized.

Similary, less than 100 points is bad and shouldn't get reward for being in the stronger team.

[Bud Crue]

Honestly, what does it matter?

The way this is set up, I expect it is going to push most of the remaining player base to the two extremes of T1 and T5. With the population this low, in order to get matches in a reasonable time, they are going to have to throw open the gates wide open. So, for all practical purposes, no matter what your new tier, or what your player skill rating is, we are all going to end up playing against each other regardless...just like now.

Oh, in case any one is interested, as the OP didn't link to it, here is Paul's post in the Announcement forum:
https://mwomercs.com...anges-jun-2020/

[Thorqemada]

In the end you will play the majority of Players you already play with or against bcs Tier 3 necessarily will be the biggest Tier and with MM-Speed a priority it will certainly offer Matches that contain Tier 1 to Tier 3 Players and at ver low population times maybe even Tier 1 to Tier 4 Players.
That means that eseentially nothing changes but Tier trolling gets more substance to it...

Edited by Thorqemada, 05 June 2020 - 05:31 AM.

[VonBruinwald]

Bistrorider, on 05 June 2020 - 04:51 AM, said:

How? It happens. Of course also due to leaching and stats pad but also beacuse someone play good or better that the rest of the team. Sometimes it's very hard to go 400 matchscore in lost match, whatever you do, however you play. So I see it as +1.

The way you want things to play doesn't work:

• What you want it basically what we have.
  Wins go -1, 0 +1 +2
  Loses go -2, -1, 0, +1
  It would lead to anyone with an Average MS above 250 getting to T1. Welcome to the experience bar.
  
• The alternative is to remove win/loss and base PSR changes solely on MS.
  Congratulations, people can now leech their way to T1, no skill required, hide at the back, "hold-locks", farm AMS, cheesy ePeens everywhere!
  
• Using Win/Loss as the PSR decider is the only real option left. It may not be ideal but neither is it as broken. You have to play as part of the team to move up the ranks. It's no longer an experience bar and cheese loses its flavour.

If we wanted to really fix PSR we need more than 4 stages and (as is) positive increases on the losing side needs to be at the 500 mark. We also need something more dynamic than fixed MS boundaries:
Taking the average match-score for the match and using standard deviations as the boundaries is the way to go here.

[Anomalocaris]

VonBruinwald, on 05 June 2020 - 07:11 AM, said:

The way you want things to play doesn't work:

• What you want it basically what we have.
  
  Wins go -1, 0 +1 +2
  Loses go -2, -1, 0, +1
  It would lead to anyone with an Average MS above 250 getting to T1. Welcome to the experience bar.
  
• The alternative is to remove win/loss and base PSR changes solely on MS.
  
  Congratulations, people can now leech their way to T1, no skill required, hide at the back, "hold-locks", farm AMS, cheesy ePeens everywhere!
  
• Using Win/Loss as the PSR decider is the only real option left. It may not be ideal but neither is it as broken. You have to play as part of the team to move up the ranks. It's no longer an experience bar and cheese loses its flavour.

Can't work as proposed. The current system Paul has laid out will lead to the average player declining all the way to Tier5. It's just like the bizarro world version of the current system. Average match score is under 250 and avg WLR is under 1.

If the population were large enough to limit Tier matching to +1/-1 maximum, these players would drop into Tier 3 and never face Tier 1, so their scores could come up a bit and find equilibrium. But this will never happen at this stage. Tier 3 will be facing Tier 1 pretty much every match, and Tier 4 will face it enough that they will never be able to build their scores and WLR high enough to rise.

What we will have is a huge number of players in Tier 5, tapering down as we enter Tier 4. Tier 3 and Tier 2 will be lightly populated and then we'll have another (much smaller) peak in Tier 1. Changing the match score break points could help, but will always be subject to runaway trends in one direction or the other.

As you said, the only thing that can truly work is scoring relative performance within the match. If you're the best among the group the matchmaker has chosen for you, you should go up. However, even this will run into population based issues when the gates are open.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

In the end PGI's "does not move 0 points" and your "does move +1 points" still achieve the same result, of pushing top team performers and bottom team performers away from each other (because the bottom team performers get -5 points either way).

Your "+1" version just performs that action ~20% faster (achieving a 6 point separation instead of a 5 point separation per match), rather then doing it ~20% better.

So what I'm saying is : It doesn't really matter if it's 0 points or +1 points, because the end result will be the same either way.

[O L L O]

Thorqemada, on 05 June 2020 - 05:30 AM, said:

In the end you will play the majority of Players you already play with or against bcs Tier 3 necessarily will be the biggest Tier and with MM-Speed a priority it will certainly offer Matches that contain Tier 1 to Tier 3 Players and at ver low population times maybe even Tier 1 to Tier 4 Players.
That means that eseentially nothing changes but Tier trolling gets more substance to it...

I think the idea is to enable the MM to distribute "true" tier 1s equally to the two teams (and the same for tier 2s and 3s). So you will face the same old players, but teams will be more equal. In theory.

[Bistrorider]

I'm reading you all and I'm thinking: I called it a reward-punish, maybe stupid, but it's like a punish to go 400+ matchscore somehow in lost match and what? So what is tier anyway? It's about how risky lost should be in case of points. Just my opinion. Wanted to scream a little.

Edited by Bistrorider, 07 June 2020 - 12:05 PM.

[Nesutizale]

From my other topic about beeing punished when haveing 400 score and loosing.


When you constantly performe at the 400+ range you will advance even if every second game is lost. You would need to loose 100% of your games to even keep your Tier and earn no points at all.
How likely is it that this will happen?

As for what the Tier says/means?
Its not a progress bar, its not for bragging or a badge you can pin on your chest. Its a tool for matchmaking.
It shows your skill level and will be used to match you to people with similar skill.
The better you are the higher in Tier you will advance until you reach the Tier of your skill.

Also the closer you get to the Tier you belong in the lower your matchscore will become so you might start at the 400+ but when you are at your Tier it will be around 250 because everyone else around you also is better and so matchscores even out.

That is at least the theorie. In practice this is hindered by low player numbers. The matchmaker might have to put you together with people from lower or higher tiers.
We will see. I say give it about 2-3 month or until everyone has at least a hundret games played. Then we will most likely see how it works in practice. Before that its all theorie.

Edited by Nesutizale, 07 June 2020 - 01:39 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Added what the Now/soon to be OLD MS grid looked like.

1. There would no longer be a static threshold range. Do remember though that through brute force of tons of games (10s of thousands), someone with an overall avg 171 MS and 0.83 W/L ratio was able to make it to Tier 2 then Tier 1, afterwards floating between the two tiers.

2. Medium PSR ranges takes up too much space. There should at least be 5 sets of ranges, with the middle range being the static range.



1-100
101-200
201-300
301-400
401+

Or

0-125
126-250
251-375
376-500
501+


Edit, okay adding visuals, using a 5 PSR ranges instead of 4 (in green) as well as changing the range of the thresholds. Both with a neutral range while the PGI proposed does not have that neutral/static range.

The first one where it is broken up into 100 MS segments would likely be the best of the two.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 June 2020 - 03:07 PM.

[Bistrorider]

Yeah, I see, I can't count. Your charts are really great. And again. Maybe a little encouragement? I'm not the player who can go 400 match score in every game. Drops after lost match will be bigger. Imo it's good. But how about those players who really try to do more? Like 400 match score? Still it's 50+ (if you played good in 50 matches in a row, but in a lost match. And that is almost impossible, at least for me to lost 50 matches in a row and go like 400+match score). And you're saying: 250 points after 50 games won. Theory is great. But think about those who really need some encouragement. After all I wanna go only +1 after lost match with 400+ matchscore. Bad? You tell me.

Nesutizale, on 07 June 2020 - 01:38 PM, said:

As for what the Tier says/means?
Its not a progress bar, its not for bragging or a badge you can pin on your chest. Its a tool for matchmaking.
It shows your skill level and will be used to match you to people with similar skill.
The better you are the higher in Tier you will advance until you reach the Tier of your skill.

Yes, contradictions. It will be an earthquake, whatever they will change.

Edited by Bistrorider, 08 June 2020 - 12:11 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

I redid the chart some, but Paul has posted that the current PSR is on hold while they take feedback. A number of players had expected a zero-sum per game but I really do not believe they understand what they are asking for. It may still work out okay but a win would no longer guarantee no movement or slight movement up, while a loss will no longer guarentee no movement or moving down, it is broken down to the top 12 scores moving up and the bottom 12 scores moving down....regardless of which side....

Anyhow, Paul's new post, and my revised chart made prior to Paul's post.

https://mwomercs.com...d-hold-on-patch

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 June 2020 - 06:00 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

I agree with OP. I don't really feel like a zero-sum game is necessary. Reward good play, don't reward bad play. I don't think it should be relevant to the team etc. I don't think it feels very fair for a good (lucky) team that drops where all 12 players put in relatively equal effort (let's say avg MS of winning team is 300 with a 50 pt spread between #1 and #12) for there to be such a disparate result between top and bottom.

I'd definitely prefer some sort of MS based bracketed MS as in the OP, one with volatility and one where good players on bad teams don't get punished and bad players on good teams don't get carried.

If in fact that does lead to an ultimately upward sorting XP-bar style progression, then so what? We've had a brokeass PSR/MM for 8 years. Just reset it every 4 months/6months.

[Davegt27]

your making assumptions about the game, the goal of the game and even the mechanics of the game

I been posting this for years

[Willard Phule]

Huh. It's all based on win or loss. How about a straight, across the board +/- system based on MS then add a modifier of +1 to the overall MS. Then, all of a sudden, it's about YOUR performance and not the team's. Because, let's face it, teamwork in QP is accidental at best and only happens when a group of similarly experienced people do the same thing.

[Eatit]

I'm going to ask here as well as the official thread.

What are you trying to fix?

Problem:

Unbalanced Matches

Causes of Problem:

Tier System more like XP bar, everyone eventually tier 1. Also low population MM pulling from all tiers to make a match.

Proposed Solution:

Set an agreed upon metric for Player Skill Rating and assign players to appropriate tier.

Outcome:

No matter what tier everyone is in the Low Population MM is pulling from all tiers to make a match. The only sorting of the teams is by mech class. Tier 1, 2, 3, 4 players will be randomly sorted onto two teams based on when they joined the que and what class mech they are in. Teams will still be unbalanced exactly the same as they are today. We will know who belongs in what tier but it won't matter as all the tiers play together anyway.

The unbalanced matches will be exactly as unbalanced as they are today. This alone is not a solution to the problem.


Alternate Solution:

Set an agreed upon metric for Player Skill Rating and assign players to appropriate tier. Then also configure the MM to sort teams by tier as well as mech class. Each team should be assigned equal numbers of each tier, creating equal teams.

Fixing both parts of this two part issue will actually work towards making matches balanced. Only assigning appropriate tier to the players will not solve the problem as all players play in the same matches anyway. There aren't enough players for matches to be created of only tier 1 players or even only tier 1 and 2 players. The MM pulls from all the tiers to start matches in a timely manner. Changing everyone's tier won't change match quality.

[Ekson Valdez]

Please discuss changes to PSR in the appropriate thread: psr-update-and-hold-on-patch
We can't have several places where ideas on the same topic are discussed.