40 replies to this topic

[CFC Conky]

Hawker Siddeley, on 04 July 2020 - 08:20 PM, said:

Not to try disparage you but on Jarls you're 67%, your stats are roughly that of the average player and you have grinded your way to T1. How in a PSR system intended to properly balance out players among the tiers has the average player in the same bracket as the top tier players?

I would argue that with an average match score of ~315, OP did more than just grind his way to T1, and in a light mech at that.

Good job OneTeamPlayer.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Nightbird]

CFC Conky, on 05 July 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

I would argue that with an average match score of ~315, OP did more than just grind his way to T1, and in a light mech at that.

Good job OneTeamPlayer.

Agreed! Nice job!

[CFC Conky]

As much as we like to put up charts and crunch numbers, operating in the MWO world is not an exact science. In the end, no matter what changes are implemented, you can't predict their outcome/effect with absolute certainty.

The only thing to do is put the change in place, let it run for a while then adjust as necessary.

I hope new/new-ish/average players will stick around long enough to see it through because imo, although imperfect, the changes to the PSR system are a step (perhaps small) in the right direction.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 05 July 2020 - 10:58 AM.

[Brizna]

Hawker Siddeley, on 04 July 2020 - 08:20 PM, said:

Not to try disparage you but on Jarls you're 67%, your stats are roughly that of the average player and you have grinded your way to T1. How in a PSR system intended to properly balance out players among the tiers has the average player in the same bracket as the top tier players?

He started in tier 3 as all of us. Theoretically when he reached tier 2 matchmaker should have been making tougher matches by adding more tier 2 and tier 1 players to the enemy team, in practice it is so early after the reset there's very few players who aren't tier 3, so the challenge didn't go up. This allowed him to grind his way up to tier 1. In therory once more people get there he will struggle to keep tier 1, if he's 67% in jarl's ideally he shoud settle in tier 2. We'll see....

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Brizna, on 05 July 2020 - 11:35 AM, said:

He started in tier 3 as all of us. Theoretically when he reached tier 2 matchmaker should have been making tougher matches by adding more tier 2 and tier 1 players to the enemy team, in practice it is so early after the reset there's very few players who aren't tier 3, so the challenge didn't go up. This allowed him to grind his way up to tier 1. In therory once more people get there he will struggle to keep tier 1, if he's 67% in jarl's ideally he shoud settle in tier 2. We'll see....

^

Early tier risers are going to have an easier go of it (theoretically) due to how they did the reset. Who stays tier 1 will be the question as tier 1 starts to get more crowded and the matchmaker can supposedly work better.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Hashed Brown: The expose of how one potato cheated his way into tier 1 by showing up on time.

Hashed Brown Volume II: The story of how one treacherous potato rose the ranks in an invalid queue while recognized elite players simultaneously rose in a perfectly fair environment.

Thanks for the well wishes from some pleasant folks.

I honestly was kind of expecting more stories about personal experiences with the queue than purse clutching, but oh well.

The idea of a normie in the super secret club has some folk like:

Edited by OneTeamPlayer, 05 July 2020 - 01:20 PM.

[Johnny Slam]

Hawker Siddeley, on 04 July 2020 - 08:20 PM, said:

Not to try disparage you but on Jarls you're 67%, your stats are roughly that of the average player and you have grinded your way to T1. How in a PSR system intended to properly balance out players among the tiers has the average player in the same bracket as the top tier players?

Not to disparage you but... you are acting like a self-important git that only feels better about himself when he is taking a dump on someone else who took the time to write up an informative and helpful post that intelligently calls out some observations and posits some questions. (granted the use of potato by the OP was unfortunate and lazy)

And once again, not to disparage you but.....Oh my god! guys like you are the worst.......................THE WORST.

And I want you to know that I will be lighting a candle for you and leading my small family in prayers that such a magnificent and truly wondrous, oh-so-much-better tier 1 player like you can endure playing some matches with the 'little' people and common players, you poor, poor man! imagine! those dirty little people grinding up to tier 1 and taking the smallest bit of your super-duper-specialness!

[Hellbringer]

I think the psr decreases are not enough and the increases too much. It’s quite easy to move up (honestly getting to tier 1 was easier than the previous system) and it seems much harder to get down to t4 t5.

Yet to see a T5 guy or a t4 guy on the forums giving their experience.

[Nightbird]

Hellbringer, on 05 July 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

I think the psr decreases are not enough and the increases too much. It’s quite easy to move up (honestly getting to tier 1 was easier than the previous system) and it seems much harder to get down to t4 t5.

Yet to see a T5 guy or a t4 guy on the forums giving their experience.

As of today the PSR update is doing worse than I predicted. Specifically, more people are quitting than I projected, leading to the average skill level going up and pushing the peak of the WLR curve to the left. Still, it's a little early to call it yet, gonna take two months...

Edited by Nightbird, 05 July 2020 - 07:34 PM.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Nightbird, on 05 July 2020 - 07:33 PM, said:

As of today the PSR update is doing worse than I predicted. Specifically, more people are quitting than I projected, leading to the average skill level going up and pushing the peak of the WLR curve to the left. Still, it's a little early to call it yet, gonna take two months...

How can you tell that people are quitting? Not that I don't believe you, just curious as to where to get the stats.

I will note that I am halfway through T1 at this point, and if i ever hit the full bar i'm going to take a good long break- I don't think i'm the only person of any tier who plans to do the same either.

How does the system rebalance if a large percentage of the players step back till the system rebalances? Chicken-egg dilemma.

[Nightbird]

OneTeamPlayer, on 05 July 2020 - 07:51 PM, said:

How can you tell that people are quitting? Not that I don't believe you, just curious as to where to get the stats.

I will note that I am halfway through T1 at this point, and if i ever hit the full bar i'm going to take a good long break- I don't think i'm the only person of any tier who plans to do the same either.

How does the system rebalance if a large percentage of the players step back till the system rebalances? Chicken-egg dilemma.

I can tell by scraping the leaderboard data and plotting WLR. If all pilots don't quit, you expect a peak in the middle at WLR=1. If the pilots under 1 WLR quit, the peak gets pushed left in the <1 direction. Comparing season 47 to the current season to-date, the peak is noticeably more to the left.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I'm quite suspisious if players can get and stay tier 1, with WL of below 1. Now true, because nearly everyone is still tier 3, that means at tier 2 and even 1, you will still fight againts "tier 3" who effectively should be in tier 4 or even 5. So it might be temporarely, and OK.

Initially I was worried it would take ages for players to get to "their tier", after 80 matches I was about 25% done in tier 2, now at 111 matches Im over halfway in tier 2 bar, about 60%, so maybe 150 total and Im at the bottom of tier 1.

When combined queues came I was seriously struggling, it eventually got little better.

Thing that worries me right now, if this system is putting too much weight on match score and too little on winning/losing. All I want is fair enough game. The situation when queues combined was garbage, if this zero-sum PSR doesn't fix that enough, I find it difficult players want to continue playing at constant disadvantage.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Hashed Brown Final Chapter: I am become Vodka, Destroyer of Livers

Today I finished the sprint, though the journey has taken me from the softest budding spud to the harshest, most bitter spirit.

Final Stats:

• Total Matches to max T1: 308 From Start of T1 to T1Max was 110 Matches
  
• Win Loss Final: 152/156 for an 0.97 Ratio
  
• Average Match Score: 321 , K/D 283/174 for a 1.63 K/D

• Still Saw quite a few horrific stomps, Saw a very few even matches, and saw quite a few cadets and T4 people while playing at T1.
  
• Most players I asked were either still in T3 or T1 (where my T2 players at?), the T1 players were almost exclusively the groups in my drops. Obviously biased towards the people who actually responded to the question when i remembered to ask.

• People really hate Urbanmech for some reason. I watched quite a few close calls (bad positioning, lower on kills) become easy wins as an entire segment of the enemy team focused on killing an urbanmech behind cover instead of the assaults pounding out their core.
  
• Tactics is an alien word at this current stage. Lucky if kindergarten level requests work ("please attack the enemy frontline assaults shooting us from the left instead of the single light to our rear")

All in all i saw a few great players, watched a lot of frustrating plays, and made a lot of matchscore while watching friendly mechs drop like flies.

The playstyle encouraged by the PSR change is easy to adapt to, but so far away from my "engineer something fun, try to coordinate with the team" style that I'm done for a good long while.

Thanks for everyone who put up good coordination on my team or put up a great fight on the enemy team!

...and thus he departed the war to pursue a peaceful trek through France.

Edited by OneTeamPlayer, 06 July 2020 - 06:23 PM.

[General Solo]

Have fun

[Kubernetes]

OP is way too humble. 321 MS in a light - *ahem* pocket-heavy - is def worthy of T1. Assuming you die in virtually all losses, your survival rate in wins is crazy good -- maybe that's you or maybe it's a function of all the stomps you're seeing.

[General Solo]

Smells like Papa Smurfs Alt

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 07 July 2020 - 10:20 PM.

[Asym]

CFC Conky, on 05 July 2020 - 10:56 AM, said:

As much as we like to put up charts and crunch numbers, operating in the MWO world is not an exact science. In the end, no matter what changes are implemented, you can't predict their outcome/effect with absolute certainty.

The only thing to do is put the change in place, let it run for a while then adjust as necessary.

I hope new/new-ish/average players will stick around long enough to see it through because imo, although imperfect, the changes to the PSR system are a step (perhaps small) in the right direction.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

I wandered in to play a match or two and saw that I "was" a Mid point Tier 2 and now I'm a mid point 3.... All of those matches to get to 2 only to be demoted to 3 for some affirmative action re balancing.....

It shouldn't matter if you "ground" your way up: the rules are built to do that. Only, to be set back so a few others can have "better matches" that will never happen:.................because, there just aren't enough people anymore.

I am happy the game is still alive. You should see WoWs where they don't even use skill in any definition to select teams....OUCH, what a mess when you only select vehicles. Talk about Stomps. That game ran off the entire middle of the game !!!! Stupid is as stupid does.....

That game is where this game was at the Skill Tree Change......it's imploding, as this game did, in the same way.......great for us that work in and around game innovation tech and creation to teach "what not to do"...... That mature game, brown ocean mistake that cheaper, less complex content and gimmicks will make more money versus quality game content in line with what sold the game at inception...... Too big a vision and that almost always fails.

You are right that something is better than nothing. At least they are changing processes in a game that is "mostly dead;" and, they do that for "sale value" when the time comes.......

[Nesutizale]

Still WoWs matches somehow work without a skilltree...mostly. I guess that is because with the fixed loadout of the ships and fixed Tier matchup you have a pretty good idea on what people will bring into a match and get a certain amount of balanceing right from the start. Sure a good gamer can still farm people in lower tiers but it seams to happen rather rarely. At least that is my impression.

Still I think that WoWs has a skill system running in the background as well as another system. I noticed that when I play a few bad games I suddenly get one or two surprisingly easy matches with real tatties. Like, I think it was two days ago...sitting behind an island with my BB and one after the other a CR comes around the corner, showing me his broadside. I just sat there farming damage. I mean didn't they notice that right behind that island ships where dissapearing one by one? Did wargameing spawn some bots between players?

For me this smells like there is a skill system at work that, when it notices you loose to much, puts you together with less skilled players so you get one or two "feel good" matches so you keep playing and hopefully spending money.

[Cluster Fox]

OneTeamPlayer, on 06 July 2020 - 06:22 PM, said:

...

Well your testimony is quite useful in making two points :

• The PSR system is still an XP bar.
  
• Matchscore is way too important in the current PSR.

T3 players need to get sorted out ASAP. If they get stomped twice every second game, they won't play 180-200 matches to get to the PSR they should. We need a stable and reactive PSR system to save the population ASAP.



Then once the most important thing is done, XYC has to be adjusted. MS is currently 15 times too important. People have fought against WLR, but the same people also realized it's all about MS now and are MS farming their way up.

Nightbird's system is an alternative. But if we keep Jay Z's system, the community needs to push for stable PSR ASAP, then focus on XYC - ideally both at the same time... :

Edited by Cluster Fox, 10 July 2020 - 06:35 AM.

[Asym]

Nesutizale, on 10 July 2020 - 05:30 AM, said:

Still WoWs matches somehow work without a skilltree...mostly. I guess that is because with the fixed loadout of the ships and fixed Tier matchup you have a pretty good idea on what people will bring into a match and get a certain amount of balanceing right from the start. Sure a good gamer can still farm people in lower tiers but it seams to happen rather rarely. At least that is my impression.

Still I think that WoWs has a skill system running in the background as well as another system. I noticed that when I play a few bad games I suddenly get one or two surprisingly easy matches with real tatties. Like, I think it was two days ago...sitting behind an island with my BB and one after the other a CR comes around the corner, showing me his broadside. I just sat there farming damage. I mean didn't they notice that right behind that island ships where dissapearing one by one? Did wargameing spawn some bots between players?

For me this smells like there is a skill system at work that, when it notices you loose to much, puts you together with less skilled players so you get one or two "feel good" matches so you keep playing and hopefully spending money.

According to WG, there isn't any skill matching process. Just ship types.

That 1D MM is based on the the "Random Distribution" of skills. Since 66% of the population are "average" players, you have a good chance of having a lot of average players. What is going on now, since the Cruiser Line Split, that game's version of the Skill Tree Change, the middle of the game left or moved to play in COOP or Scenarios and abandoned Randoms: just like a huge number of us, entire clans left Faction Play and then the game itself. Our entire clan left MWO..... Only on or two of them play MWO at all anymore (we had 47 players.,.....)

The same is happening in WoWs........ My clan there "retired and left" and I had to join another clan. I only play COOP and Scenarios. STOMPS are the norm in WoWs and have been getting a lot worse ! And, will get even worse as the skill gap gets larger because there aren't any average players left in game !!!

The difference is that WoWs is a lot larger than MWO and their other titles will carry well enough to survive. I'm not sure if MWO's host can do that???

There is no skill usage in WoW's MM. If there were, the wait times would be so long no one would play !!!