18 replies to this topic

[Obelus]

I don't get it.

But...it seems clear that lower weight mechs are at a disadvantage. Maybe time for some separate queues for different weight classes like a light only queue?

[V O L T R O N]

Obelus, on 14 July 2020 - 07:47 PM, said:

I don't get it.

But...it seems clear that lower weight mechs are at a disadvantage. Maybe time for some separate queues for different weight classes like a light only queue?

If they organized drops by speed, the lighter team could wolf pac better....

[Nesutizale]

It depends on the players. I have seen lighter teams win games and I also have seen some light pilots that did much better then the heavy or assaults.

[martian]

Obelus, on 14 July 2020 - 07:47 PM, said:

I don't get it.

But...it seems clear that lower weight mechs are at a disadvantage. Maybe time for some separate queues for different weight classes like a light only queue?

Negative.

Russ Bullock said it clearly: "One queue from now on, so pre-made groups can farm casual solo players."

[Nesutizale]

I find that pretty funny. Every time I have a team in my group we loose

[Bud Crue]

Nesutizale, on 15 July 2020 - 01:39 AM, said:

I find that pretty funny. Every time I have a team in my group we loose

A lot of folks around here equate groups with top level elite players and ONLY such players. It's as if it is beyond their scope of understanding and experience that there could exist casual and terribad players who might know others of their ilk within this game's community of players, and that such players might actually also play together as a group. But it's true! We are out there! And often if you are unfortunate to get us on your team you may in fact be screwed (also be really wary of us on shi77y mech Wednesdays). Personally, I've always felt like people like me and mine (fairly regularly playing, nightly, after work casual, players dropping together) were the norm, with some groups having more "good" players than others.

Edit:
As to the OP's main point, I'm not sure if light mechs per se are at a disadvantage vs others. I mean if you play them correctly and bring the right ones I see lights being top scorers quite often (disclaimer: I can't play them for crap and never could). That being said, it is also pretty clear that in this new world where 9 assaults on one team and only 1 on the other, or that sort of thing, is not only possible but seemingly becoming the norm; if you are in a light on the team with only 1 assault, you are going to have a bad time, but then you will also have a bad time in just about anything if the team with the 9 is remotely competent. Personally, for good or ill, I have gone back to playing my favorite mechs (fast heavy brawlers like Jesters, Quickdraws, Orions) and have tried to stop feeling guilty over not maximizing my tonnage, and am managing to slowly rise in PSR nonetheless.

Edited by Bud Crue, 15 July 2020 - 03:45 AM.

[w4ldO]

Nesutizale, on 15 July 2020 - 01:39 AM, said:

I find that pretty funny. Every time I have a team in my group we loose

fasten your seatbelt helps against going loose
doesnt help against losing, tho

[Willard Phule]

Obelus, on 14 July 2020 - 07:47 PM, said:

I don't get it.

But...it seems clear that lower weight mechs are at a disadvantage. Maybe time for some separate queues for different weight classes like a light only queue?

Right now, everyone is struggling to get out of T3 (as if it matters, since T2 and T1 are in the same matches). It's all about match score. Heavier mechs mean more weapons, which eventually equates to higher match score.

It's actually hilarious to see the nonsense builds in QP right now. Half the population is falling back to LRMs for damage potential, the other half is going heavy on ECM/AMS.

[Hellbringer]

^struggling to move down is a smarter move than to move up. Moving up is the same as if you start a brand new account with tier 3. You’ll still face the likes of 1000+++ damage players. Better to move down to t4 and t5 if you want a more casual and fun experience.

[GARION26]

The matchmaker is matching Group vs Group presence as it's first search, then apparently PSR then tonnage.

That's because a lot of the player base was convinced a group on one side not the other would be the most important determinant of outcome. That's probably not correct for the reasons given by other posters in this thread.

But that's the way the matchmaker currently works.
See a match with 4 cadets on one side vs none on the other - that's probably a group of 4 cadets.

Tonnage difference isn't driven really because people are dropping heavy (or light) groups - there are enough other slots to balance it out potentially. The issue is Group/non group and PSR are higher matchmaking concerns in the current algorithm then tonnage.

Given my personal experience of QP I think that putting tonnage last is about a right. I'm terrible doesn't matter what tonnage I drive I'm never going to be a 4-5 kills guy. If the opposing player is a very good player in an assault or very good player in a light either way I'm in trouble and going down. General point though assaults and lights are less forgiving I think for new players then mediums and heavies where you have armor and enough speed to recover from bad positioning and decisions often.

[OneTeamPlayer]

Nesutizale, on 15 July 2020 - 01:39 AM, said:

I find that pretty funny. Every time I have a team in my group we loose

Either way teams contribute to victory or loss in an outsized way and that's what people have a problem with.

If a group of extremely good players teams up, great- matchmaker has just tossed an unbalanced amount of skill on one side changing the probability of the game from an equal match to a lopsided match.

If a group of bad players group up, great- matchmaker has just tossed an unbalanced amount of skill on one side changing the probability of the game from an equal match to a lopsided match.

Do you get that the problem is that the introduction of teams inherently unbalances the chances at a balanced match?


In an individual system a Matchmaker would have to actively attempt to specifically find a set of extremely good players then find a set of extremely bad players and balance those two groups on separate teams instead of mixing them into two balanced teams.

In this soup queue that's what happens all day every day by design and with the added kicker that the matchmaker can't even seem to balance by tonnage/class anymore!

Bad groups are just as disruptive to solo gameplay as good groups, they both remove the agency from solo players and turn the game into "group gamble" as a major metric for wins or losses.

It's a whole mess.

[Nightbird]

The new PSR system was proposed by a community group, and was proven to not work even before it was implemented. It does not attempt to reduce stomps. It does not attempt to make better matches. It's only purpose is to teach pugs their place in the hierarchy next to the elites, by putting everyone into T3 to get clubbed on until they enter T5.

[martian]

Willard Phule, on 15 July 2020 - 06:01 AM, said:

It's actually hilarious to see the nonsense builds in QP right now. Half the population is falling back to LRMs for damage potential, the other half is going heavy on ECM/AMS.

I do not run 'Mechs armed with LRMs. I do not run 'Mechs with ECM/AMS combo.

Do I exist here? I mean, as a real person?

You have caused a moment of a deep existentional uncertainty.

[GARION26]

OneTeamPlayer, on 15 July 2020 - 06:44 AM, said:

Either way teams contribute to victory or loss in an outsized way and that's what people have a problem with.

If a group of extremely good players teams up, great- matchmaker has just tossed an unbalanced amount of skill on one side changing the probability of the game from an equal match to a lopsided match.

If a group of bad players group up, great- matchmaker has just tossed an unbalanced amount of skill on one side changing the probability of the game from an equal match to a lopsided match.

Do you get that the problem is that the introduction of teams inherently unbalances the chances at a balanced match?


In an individual system a Matchmaker would have to actively attempt to specifically find a set of extremely good players then find a set of extremely bad players and balance those two groups on separate teams instead of mixing them into two balanced teams.

In this soup queue that's what happens all day every day by design and with the added kicker that the matchmaker can't even seem to balance by tonnage/class anymore!

Bad groups are just as disruptive to solo gameplay as good groups, they both remove the agency from solo players and turn the game into "group gamble" as a major metric for wins or losses.

It's a whole mess.

I'm in agreement largely but if you balance by PSR primarily instead of group vs non group I think it pulls out the effect of a large group of Tier 5's pulling down the team. Group of 4 Tier 5's on one team make sure there are 4 Tier 5's solos on the other team. Group of 4 Tier 1s on one team make sure there are are 4 tier 1 solos on the other team. Don't like it because groups are an inherent advantage then give a temporary PSR boost to group members when calculating (a bottom of tier 1 player in a group counts as a middle of tier 1 player for matchmaking for example)

Too much talent (or lack there of) on one team for the matchmaking population at that moment to balance have a feedback system to the group that says something to the effect of we'd recommend you split your group to allow for shorter matchmaking time.

Edited by GARION26, 15 July 2020 - 08:25 AM.

[Willard Phule]

martian, on 15 July 2020 - 07:45 AM, said:

I do not run 'Mechs armed with LRMs. I do not run 'Mechs with ECM/AMS combo.

Do I exist here? I mean, as a real person?

You have caused a moment of a deep existentional uncertainty.

Guess that puts you square in the middle of the pack, completely unremarkable. You're not harvesting the LRM boats, nor are you padding your MS with "missiles shot down."

[martian]

Willard Phule, on 15 July 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

Guess that puts you square in the middle of the pack, completely unremarkable.

My experience has taught me that those, who attract the enemy attention early on, usually die first.

Willard Phule, on 15 July 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

You're not harvesting the LRM boats, nor are you padding your MS with "missiles shot down."

I just do not engage them "head on".

[Hiten Bongz]

martian, on 15 July 2020 - 07:45 AM, said:

I do not run 'Mechs armed with LRMs. I do not run 'Mechs with ECM/AMS combo.

Willard Phule, on 15 July 2020 - 09:03 AM, said:

Guess that puts you square in the middle of the pack, completely unremarkable. You're not harvesting the LRM boats, nor are you padding your MS with "missiles shot down."

You guys are both doing it wrong, the trick is to actually run mechs with LRMs *and* ECM and AMS...

[Mordale]

can we have the 3,3,3,3 rule back and allow us to drop as a team again!! We used to drop as 8 then 12 pilots or any number up to that! Now i can only drop with 3 other team mates.

[Zirconium Kaze]

Obelus, on 14 July 2020 - 07:47 PM, said:

I don't get it.

But...it seems clear that lower weight mechs are at a disadvantage. Maybe time for some separate queues for different weight classes like a light only queue?

Lights are supposed to be for niches that the heavier mechs can't fulfill and a stepping stone to something better. In this game, they're more powerful than they were in mw4.