75 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Just for the sake of transparency, I haven't watched any Comp matches, but based on what I see on QP with comp guys NOT using LRMs, I don't think they are being used - I could be wrong, take that with a grain of salt.

Are Comp guys using LRMs in any serious capacity? Are they effective in producing good results?

As a comp player, if you can balance the game with every aspect, how are you going to balance LRMs? Are you even going to bat an eye?

[Nightbird]

LRMs are balanced around being good anti-noob weapons so you won't see them in high level play. If they were useful there, they would obliterate noobies in QP.

[LordNothing]

locking weapons are seldom used by pro players, they just require too much face time for what is effectively unfocused damage. and these players are really good at focusing damage. if you bring in a dedicated support mech to get locks, then you effectively remove that mech from a direct combat role and it also serves as a single point of failure. if 2 or more mechs are dependent on a scout mech, and it gets ganked, then you end up loosing trades. they can fire and duck before your lock is complete.

[Brauer]

Nightbird, on 01 October 2020 - 08:55 PM, said:

LRMs are balanced around being good anti-noob weapons so you won't see them in high level play. If they were useful there, they would obliterate noobies in QP.

While correct in broad strokes this is not entirely accurate. During last year's Worlds lrms were used to great effect in at least two drops in the Grand Finals. In one drop an entire strat was designed around abusing lrms against a very strong comp team. In another drop, iirc, one mech was purpose-built for the map and imo abused the lack of good lrm cover during the early and middle phases of the match. As recently as ToC2 we have also seen lrms used to great effect against strong teams. LRMs are certainly not viable in comp settings on every map, and their drawbacks make their use-case far narrower the higher up you go in comp, BUT they are definitely viable.

See EON v. MJ12 on Alpine (first drop overall) and one of (or both?) the EmP v. JGx drops on Caustic (I don't know which one): https://youtu.be/Dp1sTaPRPXo. Also WOOPS v. RJF on Alpine in Week 6 of ToC2. I can't find it on YouTube, so you'd have to search twitch VoDs for it I think.

Re: the OP, in my experience when comp players use lrms it's either a troll move, or they're bringing lrms because they think lrms give them the best chance to win a match. LRMs are imo fairly boring to play and the skill-cap for them is relatively low. So the drawbacks of lrms aren't usually worth it for strong players because they can so effectively leverage other builds.

Are comp guys using lrms in any serious capacity and do they produce good results? - Yes, and Yes. It is very situational however.

Re: lrm balance - I'd probably consider smacking lrms with the nerf bat, but I'd prioritize nerfing streaks and ATMs first because those two weapon systems strike me as further out of line. SSRMs for their ridiculous utility against lights, and ATMs for the braindead easy way ATM poptarts can farm. I'd also look at buffing direct fire weapons, particularly the ones that are rarely used today such as SPLs. In general I think it's more important to buff under-performing weapons than it is to nerf weak ones, but I think generally skill should be rewarded and lock-ons offer high rewards for low-skill.

[The6thMessenger]

Brauer, on 02 October 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

Re: lrm balance - I'd probably consider smacking lrms with the nerf bat, but I'd prioritize nerfing streaks and ATMs first because those two weapon systems strike me as further out of line. SSRMs for their ridiculous utility against lights, and ATMs for the braindead easy way ATM poptarts can farm. I'd also look at buffing direct fire weapons, particularly the ones that are rarely used today such as SPLs. In general I think it's more important to buff under-performing weapons than it is to nerf weak ones, but I think generally skill should be rewarded and lock-ons offer high rewards for low-skill.

I don't get it. LRMs are weak, why nerf it? I think It could be restricted to DF unless with Narc-Tag and then buffed from there.

So you people really just like your point-and-click adventure games, okay.

[Brauer]

The6thMessenger, on 02 October 2020 - 07:30 AM, said:

I don't get it. LRMs are weak, why nerf it? I think It could be restricted to DF unless with Narc-Tag and then buffed from there.

So you people really just like your point-and-click adventure games, okay.

LRMs are actually extremely strong when used in the right context and can be used with minimal skill. If they required more skill, or were completely irrelevant at higher levels of play I would not say they should be nerfed. If you notice I brought lrms with great success against EON in the Grand Finals last year. We also used them to bludgeon RJF to death in ToC2 this year. It seems to me like you were very selective about which parts of my post you read.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

The6thMessenger, on 02 October 2020 - 07:30 AM, said:

I don't get it. LRMs are weak

but they aren't - they are situational.

vs competent players, they are weak most of the time, yes.
vs whatever-horrors-you-see-on-a-daily-basis-in-QP, they are ridiculously easy to use, farm MS and DMG with etc - all the while sitting back in safety, doing 'effectively nothing'.

what would "fix" lrms is to have a few very different profiles, depending on what mode and whoever you play with and against
-which is simply not possible to code.
-the simplest solution after that would be to get rid of IDF; and boy .. the day they try that all the ""team-supporters"" will uninstall..

[General Solo]

The6thMessenger, on 02 October 2020 - 07:30 AM, said:

I don't get it. LRMs are weak, why nerf it? I think It could be restricted to DF unless with Narc-Tag and then buffed from there.

So you people really just like your point-and-click adventure games, okay.

Rather than do a guid match maker to balance players, PGI uses weapon nerfs instead?

T1 and Cadet in same game?
Must be weapons balance fault!
Giant free keen eye roll

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 02 October 2020 - 02:33 PM.

[dario03]

The6thMessenger, on 02 October 2020 - 07:30 AM, said:

I don't get it. LRMs are weak, why nerf it? I think It could be restricted to DF unless with Narc-Tag and then buffed from there.

So you people really just like your point-and-click adventure games, okay.

They are not weak. As others have said, they are situational and for many players boring. I pretty much never lrmd because I am in the find them boring camp but earlier in the year started bringing them in fp every once in a while. Get someone to narc, then have a couple of people in lrmboats point and click on the box with the wifi signal. And even though I am not using any of the rumored high level lrm skills I still end up doing top or near top damage and kills every time, lots of 3k plus games from mostly standing around putting a circle in a box. Its not that hard since lrms have high damage when boated, which isn't hard to do since they have high ammo count and low heat, also the cooldown is pretty fast especially on the quirked mechs.

[LordNothing]

Brauer, on 02 October 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

Re: lrm balance - I'd probably consider smacking lrms with the nerf bat, but I'd prioritize nerfing streaks and ATMs first because those two weapon systems strike me as further out of line. SSRMs for their ridiculous utility against lights, and ATMs for the braindead easy way ATM poptarts can farm. I'd also look at buffing direct fire weapons, particularly the ones that are rarely used today such as SPLs. In general I think it's more important to buff under-performing weapons than it is to nerf weak ones, but I think generally skill should be rewarded and lock-ons offer high rewards for low-skill.

ive always found regular srms better at killing lights than streaks. mostly because i can blast them all towards the legs. a light once legged has a very short life span in the presence of a hostile srm boat.

atms now, are brutal if you can maintain range in the 3 damage bracket. my 2 best performing mechs are atm boats (one veagle and one mad dog), and i usually avoid homing missiles of any kind. the problem is i think that may only be good against the masses, because ive had exchanges at 150 meters where if the enemy had just moved 30 meters closer they would have won. i want to say pro players can counter in this way and a lot quicker than your typical denizen of t3. not to mention a couple ams and you lose a lot of damage. another thing im curious about is if pro players can justify ams in their builds.

unfortunately i don't think ive watched any matches after the mwowc that featured stock mechs (and i only watched the final 2 or 3 of those). there was some lrm use presumably because some of the better builds had some.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 October 2020 - 05:59 PM.

[dario03]

Brauer, on 02 October 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

Re: lrm balance - I'd probably consider smacking lrms with the nerf bat, but I'd prioritize nerfing streaks and ATMs first because those two weapon systems strike me as further out of line. SSRMs for their ridiculous utility against lights, and ATMs for the braindead easy way ATM poptarts can farm. I'd also look at buffing direct fire weapons, particularly the ones that are rarely used today such as SPLs. In general I think it's more important to buff under-performing weapons than it is to nerf weak ones, but I think generally skill should be rewarded and lock-ons offer high rewards for low-skill.

I think they need to be reworked. But yeah streaks the most. If possible buff em vs bigs, nerf vs lighter. Or for a simple change, lower damage and range, faster cooldown.

[Scout Derek]

dario03, on 02 October 2020 - 07:27 PM, said:

I think they need to be reworked. But yeah streaks the most. If possible buff em vs bigs, nerf vs lighter. Or for a simple change, lower damage and range, faster cooldown.

I'd personally say change the flight pattern they go depending on the size of the chassis; but I don't even know if that's possible for them to do such a thing, I know they changed the flight pattern globally, but for individual size is another story it seems.

[Willard Phule]

I've seen plenty of comp players using noob tubes in QP since the merger. I'm going to guess it's a matter of "when in Rome" and all. Sometimes, the potato rain is so bad all you can do is join in.

[Kodyn]

Not in any way close to a comp player, but I did often use LRMs when I was learning the game. I drifted away from them over time because they were far too situational. For pro play, you want something you can rely on, I'd imagine. There were many, many cases for me where I ended a match thinking, "if only I'd brought another weapon system, I could have done more, been more useful, gotten that kill I missed," etc.

I stopped using LRMs except for rare, rare cases where I got bored or there was an event requiring them, and my MS and performance went way up across the board.

You can't really buff them too much though, or they will make lower tiers virtually unplayable for a lot of people. Most players don't even know arms can be unlocked, have no idea torso twisting is a thing, don't carry AMS, and don't understand cover. In my mind that's a pretty crappy place for a weapon system to be. Overpowered against bad players, but virtually useless against competent ones. Can't say I'd know how to balance them either.

[dario03]

Scout Derek, on 03 October 2020 - 04:15 AM, said:

I'd personally say change the flight pattern they go depending on the size of the chassis; but I don't even know if that's possible for them to do such a thing, I know they changed the flight pattern globally, but for individual size is another story it seems.

What I've wanted but don't know if its possible was to set the spread based on the weight class. So if you shoot at a 100t mech then most will hit torsos with a lot hitting ct, at a 20t it would spread every where. Then lower the damage a bunch.
Or make it so when you fire, it doesn't always fire all the streaks. Make the amount that fires be based on the size and speed of the mech (again if possible). Its even more lore friendly if anybody cares.

[martian]

Can I have Streak LRMs, please?

[Greyscarf]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 02 October 2020 - 07:50 AM, said:

but they aren't - they are situational.

vs competent players, they are weak most of the time, yes.
vs whatever-horrors-you-see-on-a-daily-basis-in-QP, they are ridiculously easy to use, farm MS and DMG with etc - all the while sitting back in safety, doing 'effectively nothing'.

This is a smurf account created solely to get data on pure solo drops in QP over a season using only a Griffin 1-N with 3x LRM 15, no backup weapons, to create some data points about the weapon.

In my solo QP experience, your premises that LRMs are not weak, they are situational, and that LRMs are comparatively weak against competent players most of the time are true. Your third and forth premises above are in conflict though; while LRMs are easy to use to farm MS and damage, they can't do that sitting in the back and effectively doing nothing.

If you want LRMs to really farm, you need to use them as an active line of sight participant, and that sneaks skill back into the equation. You have to keep more than 180m away for Inner Sphere while not providing easy face time for the dual heavy gauss Fafnir looking at you while getting your own locks and a path that can properly direct fire. Easier than other weapon systems? Certainly. Still requires learning a skill set to do such that you have a positive win / loss as a solo drop in the team heavy soup queue? Also yes.

My main take away from last season is that for all its weakness as a purely boated weapon system, LRMs on a mobile platform are still statistically contributing positively to a team victory for a solo player in a mixed queue environment. https://leaderboard....rch?u=greyscarf

Edited by Greyscarf, 04 October 2020 - 08:01 AM.

[Brauer]

Greyscarf, on 04 October 2020 - 08:01 AM, said:

This is a smurf account created solely to get data on pure solo drops in QP over a season using only a Griffin 1-N with 3x LRM 15, no backup weapons, to create some data points about the weapon.

In my solo QP experience, your premises that LRMs are not weak, they are situational, and that LRMs are comparatively weak against competent players most of the time are true. Your third and forth premises above are in conflict though; while LRMs are easy to use to farm MS and damage, they can't do that sitting in the back and effectively doing nothing.

If you want LRMs to really farm, you need to use them as an active line of sight participant, and that sneaks skill back into the equation. You have to keep more than 180m away for Inner Sphere while not providing easy face time for the dual heavy gauss Fafnir looking at you while getting your own locks and a path that can properly direct fire. Easier than other weapon systems? Certainly. Still requires learning a skill set to do such that you have a positive win / loss as a solo drop in the team heavy soup queue? Also yes.

My main take away from last season is that for all its weakness as a purely boated weapon system, LRMs on a mobile platform are still statistically contributing positively to a team victory for a solo player in a mixed queue environment. https://leaderboard....rch?u=greyscarf

Why would you bring lrms on an inferior chassis for LRMs though? To really see where they stand in balance you should take a LRM mech that's actually relevant like a TBT-7M.

Driving a 1.12 WLR isn't saying much imo given the average skill present in a QP match. Not to mention the real argument against LRMs is that they're a weapon system with a high skill floor and low skill ceiling relative to other weapons, not that they literally put a mech on auto-pilot (however much some people try to play them like they do).

[East Indy]

dario03, on 02 October 2020 - 07:27 PM, said:

I think they need to be reworked. But yeah streaks the most. If possible buff em vs bigs, nerf vs lighter. Or for a simple change, lower damage and range, faster cooldown.

As with almost all of MWO's balance problems, it's not the weapon itself but multiples with virtually linear scaling. So while I'd agree that a meta solution to reduce damage proportionally to tonnage might be interesting, it would also need to scale with the number of missiles hitting at a time, otherwise players would have even fewer reasons to mount smaller numbers of smaller missile packs.

[The6thMessenger]

Site functionality is bleh, I can't reply properly.

Anyways, It's not that I'm selective, but analytical. LRMs seem to be obscure, and if it is only powerful at certain right context, and you nerfed it, what incentive could you possibly have in trying to get the right context again if it's not powerful? I mean it's already pretty obscure right? Compare that to lasers or acs.

It seems to me that it's more of a mechanics problem.