85 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Beorning, on 02 October 2020 - 06:27 AM, said:

When you have to deal with this on any sort of level you will cringe at the judgements you make in your youth.

Making mistakes and learning from them is part of life. Making mistakes and blaming external sources for internal flaws is also part of life, for some people.

[Beorning]

Nightbird, on 02 October 2020 - 06:29 AM, said:

Making mistakes and learning from them is part of life. Making mistakes and blaming external sources for internal flaws is also part of life, for some people.

Yes all those people suffering from the opiod crisis got what was coming to them right? Tell me more, you seem so wise...

[Nightbird]

Beorning, on 02 October 2020 - 06:47 AM, said:

Yes all those people suffering from the opiod crisis got what was coming to them right? Tell me more, you seem so wise...

It's a tragedy, as is people who die in car accidents due to not wearing seat-belts. It's preventable, but since it happened it's still a tragedy.

The utopia you're asking for is a dystopia where nothing harmful is ever offered to human beings. Meals come in nutrition balanced rations. Entertainment is limited to what doesn't stimulate man's worse tendencies. Every aspect of life mercilessly controlled.. to keep people from making mistakes. This sort of world will never happen, you can ask for it all you want.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 02 October 2020 - 06:20 AM, said:

It's impossible to get rid of all the addictive impulses in the world. Easier to learn self control. Otherwise might as well shut down all restaurants making delicious food cuz people can't avoid getting obese. Asking for companies to avoid selling anything appealing which may cause harm when taken in excess is an exercise in futility. It's the person's flaw.

You might as well blame **** victims instead of the perpetrator. Come on, the real contention here is predatory behavior, and that is brought about by Lootboxes and Microtransaction, and that is what many games with microtransaction games end up.

Games like that of EA are glorified skinner-box, they are meant to exploit addictive impulses, and your answer is just "easier to learn self control"? There wouldn't be an industry around whaling if it was easy to do so in the first place. There's the video of that **** CEO explaining the psychological tricks! For all of the filthy jokes of South Park, their episode of Freemium does explain this rather well.

It's sad to see people actually justifying this abhorrent behavior by blaming the victims. Don't compare this to mere tasty food, or car accidents, no, these games are meant to trick people. It's not a simple car accident, they are the ones putting the fake signs so you'd crash into a wall, and die when you happen NOT to wear a seatbelt.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 October 2020 - 07:29 AM.

[Nightbird]

It's sad to see people who think people are not capable of exercising free will responsibly.

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 02 October 2020 - 07:27 AM, said:

It's sad to see people who think people are not capable of exercising free will responsibly.

But fact is, you aren't free as you think you are. Why do you think the field of Psychology exists? Humans have programing in a sense, and they can be programmed by Reinforcement, and broken too. And there are horrible people that seek to exploit this.

All you're doing is blaming the victim, and failing at basic humanity.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 02 October 2020 - 07:45 AM.

[Nightbird]

I'm explaining how the world works and the rationale behind it. Some micro-transactions for a game to earn revenue isn't bad right? The only problem is when people spend more money than they should and put themselves into a hole?

Well guess what, people did that when there is no micro-transactions. People do that with alcohol and other drugs. People do that with a variety of other vices in the past, and will continue to in the future. Alcohol advertising in particular uses all the physiological tricks in the book (ads using sexiness, normalization with product placement in tv/movie/game media, ladies nights at bars, subsidies, etc), and kills 200k people per year. Do you want to ban alcohol as well?

In such situations, you can say, 1) people are incapable of exercising free will responsibly, and then proceed to take away their choices, or 2) trust they will learn from their mistakes, and not repeat them in the future. The people of the world have overwhelming decided that 2) is the approach we take, we don't blame the choice and trust the individual to grow.

That been said, you are welcome to hold your opinion as long as you want, because I trust 2) will happen eventually.

Edited by Nightbird, 02 October 2020 - 07:54 AM.

[LordNothing]

wrt 2 i have seen f2p, participated in f2p and have decided not to give money to f2p in the future. i had a similar experience at the blackjack tables in vegas. i made 20 dollars, lost 20 dollars and grandma put $500 into slot machines. had she invested that money into her daughter, maybe mom wouldn't be the welfare bum she turned out to be. while most people never transcend their vices, and this enables all these parasites upon society to make money, it is not something i will tolerate. if pgi makes another f2p, they will not receive one thin dime from me.

[Capt Deadpool]

Nightbird, on 02 October 2020 - 07:48 AM, said:

I'm explaining how the world works and the rationale behind it. Some micro-transactions for a game to earn revenue isn't bad right? The only problem is when people spend more money than they should and put themselves into a hole?

Well guess what, people did that when there is no micro-transactions. People do that with alcohol and other drugs. People do that with a variety of other vices in the past, and will continue to in the future. Alcohol advertising in particular uses all the physiological tricks in the book (ads using sexiness, normalization with product placement in tv/movie/game media, ladies nights at bars, subsidies, etc), and kills 200k people per year. Do you want to ban alcohol as well?

In such situations, you can say, 1) people are incapable of exercising free will responsibly, and then proceed to take away their choices, or 2) trust they will learn from their mistakes, and not repeat them in the future. The people of the world have overwhelming decided that 2) is the approach we take, we don't blame the choice and trust the individual to grow.

That been said, you are welcome to hold your opinion as long as you want, because I trust 2) will happen eventually.

You seem quite certain that free will exists, Nightbird. I am curious if you have studied much neuroscience, genomics, or molecular genetics? I suspect you must have at least a little bit if you have interest in subjects such as free will, but then again, if you have gotten very deep down the rabbit hole you will know that a great number of neuroscientists do not believe free will exists at all. Not to say anything is proven by any means, but there are a fairly huge number if people with many more advanced degrees than you or I possess who are dubious of its existence.

I, for one, find the notion that we must possess a 'free will' in order to explain the subjective decision-making experience that defines existence as these fairly stupid, egotistical, destructive primate organisms known as **** sapiens to be essentially as superstitious as the old contention that a dragon swallowing the moon caused a lunar eclipse or that angry gods cause earthquakes... And we see that science later discovers plate tectonics, etc., and knowledge marches on.

When human learning regarding the most complex structure in the universe we have yet discovered--the human brain--eventually advances beyond a fraction of a millimeter of the tip of the iceberg, it will have very important implications for defining 'victims' and 'criminals' and how criminal justice operates in human society.

With regards to your example about banning alcohol, there certainly were an enormous amount of people at various points in history who were outraged when they were forced to wear seatbelts in cars, wear helmets whilst riding a motorcycle (need I even bring up mask-wearing?...), etc., so society does have to balance protecting the majority vs. allowing stupid people the freedom to harm themselves (despite the fact that people who fly through windshields, crack their skulls open, and catch covid due to negligence/obstinance typically regret their decisions after experiencing consequences, being that an enormous amount of humans are afflicted by optimism bias and/or suck at basic statistics, which I am sure is something you are aware of ). And then you have to ask yourself if a 'stupid/genetically-susceptible' person who didn't wear their seatbelt or drank their life away really deserved that which they brought upon themselves, or if it is really not much different than a rabbit darting out in front of your car and getting itself killed...

"**** sapiens" censored XD

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 03 October 2020 - 07:43 AM.

[Nightbird]

I just scoff whenever people blame external sources for their own mistakes and as an excuse to not succeed in life. Believing you can't take charge of your destiny because the world is against you is such a sad outlook. How does one even wake up in the morning? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Nightbird, 03 October 2020 - 08:36 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

I like PvE so i see no problem with them adding it

[VonBruinwald]

Nightbird, on 03 October 2020 - 08:31 AM, said:

I just scoff whenever people blame external sources for their own mistakes and as an excuse to not succeed in life. Believing you can't take charge of your destiny because the world is against you is such a sad outlook. How does one even wake up in the morning? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are responsible for your own actions, that doesn't necessarily mean the circumstances that preceded them are are under your control.

ComStar are responsible for putting the Clanners in their place. But the reason it happened is because the Clanners didn't know their place to begin with and dared to invade.

[Nightbird]

VonBruinwald, on 03 October 2020 - 10:31 AM, said:

circumstances that preceded them are are under your control

You mean the actions of others? Just as your own actions are your own responsibility, the actions of others are their responsibility.

[VonBruinwald]

Nightbird, on 03 October 2020 - 10:38 AM, said:

You mean the actions of others? Just as your own actions are your own responsibility, the actions of others are their responsibility.

Well yes, their actions are their responsibilities. But I was also thinking in the grander scheme, if a tree falls on two people and you can only save one, who's at fault?

[Nightbird]

VonBruinwald, on 03 October 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well yes, their actions are their responsibilities. But I was also thinking in the grander scheme, if a tree falls on two people and you can only save one, who's at fault?

You save whoever you want, if you want to save one at all. The one or two you don't save also have the responsibility of saving themselves.

I.e. if they screw themselves over, it's not others responsibility to save them (unless the relationship is underage children and parents)

[VonBruinwald]

Nightbird, on 03 October 2020 - 11:15 AM, said:

You save whoever you want, if you want to save one at all. The one or two you don't save also have the responsibility of saving themselves.

I.e. if they screw themselves over, it's not others responsibility to save them

So hypothetical;

You're skateboarding, you fall and break your leg. Do you call an ambulance? It is your own fault.

If you do, double-hypothetical;

The paramedic is an old rival, he takes one look at your leg and says "''wolf you" and drives off leaving you untendered. Is that acceptable?

[Capt Deadpool]

Nightbird, on 03 October 2020 - 08:31 AM, said:

I just scoff whenever people blame external sources for their own mistakes and as an excuse to not succeed in life. Believing you can't take charge of your destiny because the world is against you is such a sad outlook. How does one even wake up in the morning? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Agreed. And I think some significant portion of the population feels the same, and yet, there is a constant competition going on between the 'manipulators' and the 'manipulatees', even if the latter believe they are and always have been in full control of their destiny. For instance, there have been some fascinating studies done showing how the type of music playing in a store can have a very statistically significant influence over the type and price of wine consumers purchase, yet all the consumers believed they chose the exact wine they wished to purchase of their own volition. Another study confirmed the type of music someone listens to while drinking wine can influence whether they like the wine or not.

Your very outlook on life, which I am sure has served you well, is, ironically, a result of a combination of various as-yet-unknowable genetic sequences, epigenetics, your upbringing, education, your mentors, and other environmental factors, all of which have always been out of your control.

Take, for instance, if you had the genetic predisposition towards alcoholism or gambling or some other addiction, this outlook you have cultivated may very well effectively mitigate against those destructive predispositions. Or it may not... But someone without your outlook, due to poor genetics/upbringing/education is at far greater risk for negative outcomes through no fault of their own.

I too apply the same outlook towards my own life as you do, as it is wise and empowering to consider that you always have the power to change your circumstances regardless of externalities affecting you. However, though I try to help people who may be struggling when I can (it's important to remember that we all have widely varying capacities for learning/change), I try not to blame others who have not been lucky enough to cultivate the outlooks that you and I and other comparatively successful people share.

Because if you look around, are any kind of student of the violent genocidal self-destructive history of the human race, or even read a portion of randomly selected youtube comments or go for a short drive where you share the road with other humans, it is hard to come to any other conclusion than the majority of human beings are not very smart at all, and the universe may be far better off if an asteroid destroys this planet before we are allowed to infect others XD. But that is not a very pleasant outlook to hold, so I try to replace my impulse to 'scoff' with compassion (such a response is not only more rational, but has emotional/psychological benefits for the compassion-giver), and hope human culture is able to evolve better values before we destroy ourselves.

Good discussion for a forum devoted to a smashy robot game.

[Capt Deadpool]

VonBruinwald, on 03 October 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

So hypothetical;

You're skateboarding, you fall and break your leg. Do you call an ambulance? It is your own fault.

If you do, double-hypothetical;

The paramedic is an old rival, he takes one look at your leg and says "''wolf you" and drives off leaving you untendered. Is that acceptable?

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say and suspect Nightbird would say there is nothing wrong with calling upon an available institutional social safety net such as an ambulance service if you get yourself into trouble, though the pain you are forced to endure is a consequence of the risk vs. enjoyment assessment you made before stepping on a skateboard.

(If one were not to take advantage of such an institutional safety net if it were available, then one would have to be highly ideological indeed. Akin to something like if the Ayn Rand Institute found itself in dire financial straits and could take advantage of government-provided welfare loans in order to stay afloat, but rejected such assistance. Ironically, the Ayn Rand institute had absolutely no problem recently taking hundreds of thousands of dollars of tax-payer funded welfare funds in the form of PPP loans...)

For the second part, obviously the paramedic will make his/her own choice and be forced to live with the consequences, whether that be getting fired from their job, being arrested and jailed and sued for some form of negligence/endangerment, (particularly if a fractured femur causes damage to an artery which led to the injured person's death), a guilty conscience, or perhaps no negative outcomes at all if no one finds out and the injured person really was such a heinous person that the paramedic is able to derive some pleasure from their distress (Schadenfreude).

If we are looking at things from the standpoint of what is of most benefit to society, then, of course, any medical professional should set aside past animosities and hold to the Hippocratic Oath that they took.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 03 October 2020 - 01:43 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Capt Deadpool, on 03 October 2020 - 01:37 PM, said:

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say and suspect Nightbird would say there is nothing wrong with calling upon an available institutional social safety net such as an ambulance service if you get yourself into trouble, though the pain you are forced to endure is a consequence of the risk vs. enjoyment assessment you made before stepping on a skateboard.

On this part you would be right. But there is the argument it would be immoral of him to take advantage of the service because his troubles are the result of his own actions.

Capt Deadpool, on 03 October 2020 - 01:37 PM, said:

For the second part, obviously the paramedic will make his/her own choice and be forced to live with the consequences, whether that be getting fired from their job, being arrested and jailed and sued for some form of negligence/endangerment, (particularly if a fractured femur causes damage to an artery which led to the injured person's death), a guilty conscience, or perhaps no negative outcomes at all if no one finds out and the injured person really was such a heinous person that the paramedic is able to derive some pleasure from their distress (Schadenfreude).

And this is where it gets tricky. Obviously the paramedic is responsible for the consequences of his own actions. But under Nightbird's logic there should be no consequences for refusing to tend to "stupid" even if the authorities did find out. Any punishment metted out would be unjust. And if he was to sue it would be very hypocritical.

[Nightbird]

VonBruinwald, on 03 October 2020 - 01:59 PM, said:

On this part you would be right. But there is the argument it would be immoral of him to take advantage of the service because his troubles are the result of his own actions.

Not at all, I already wrote your life is your own responsibility. Skateboards are fairly dangerous, but I don't think it should be banned to protect people from them. People that use it are responsible for the consequences, which include going to the hospital and putting their life on hold.

VonBruinwald, on 03 October 2020 - 01:59 PM, said:

And this is where it gets tricky. Obviously the paramedic is responsible for the consequences of his own actions. But under Nightbird's logic there should be no consequences for refusing to tend to "stupid" even if the authorities did find out. Any punishment metted out would be unjust. And if he was to sue it would be very hypocritical.

I said everyone is responsible for themselves. The paramedic is also responsible for himself, including his work responsibilities.

If it is not a paramedic, but a random passer by that you know, they have no responsibility to help you.

Per the initial game micro-transaction topic, the banning versus having the choice of playing with skateboards is the equivalent question. Can humans handle the free will conundrum of skateboards? When a small number won't be able to avoid harming themselves? Or will humans be brainwashed by the advertisements, games, and product placement that makes skateboarding cool and will be compelled to hurt themselves?

Edited by Nightbird, 03 October 2020 - 03:01 PM.