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Mathventure-Time With Cacs, Racs And Uacs - A Non-Rng Suggestion


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#1 The6thMessenger

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 01:47 AM

I am not thrilled with UACs and RACs, they are lopsided. They can fire for so long, thus accruing a lot of DPS, they can also jam. That means if RNGesus smiles at you, you can wreck people's faces, or be wrecked yourself. The Aim of this thread is to point out the issues with the Autocannon format between these, and suggest a better one, those which are less frustrating to use and to fight against, and it all can be done by simple XML changes. It also introduces changes with how the CACs are handled.

Admittedly, this is more of a nerf to UACs if anything, as they will for the most part have reduced damage output, they are however just more consistent. The comp players may like this because it's less reliant on RNG but more of something they can control.

Quote

FULL LIST OF CHANGES
Spoiler


Quote

UACS

> Remove Jam
> Reduce Damage
> Increase CD


The UACs, the very staple of dakka. It leaves behind the basic ACs not just because of their DPS, but also because the upfront DPS of UACs should they not jam is effectively twice of the standard ACs. That means if you are lucky, they are basically 2x the power of a single standard ac, a UAC20 is effectively AC40, a UAC10 is effectively AC20 -- and at an extended range versus an AC20 as well. By average, the UAC5 with 15% chance to jam, it is essentially like having an additional 66.667% of an AC5.

As with the data on top, there is EXCESSIVE effective DPS after the fact of Jamming, that the IS UAC20 is hitting 7.8 DPS for mere 15 tons which is at 0.52s DPS/Ton, meanwhile a standard AC20 is at 5 DPS for 14 tons, reaching 0.35714 DPS, which is a really really high difference. This means that you ought to build UACs to maximize the DPS anyways.

While the IS could still have use for the standard ACs on account of single-slug, this is just not the case for CACs of the Clans, there is absolutely no point in taking them. Meanwhile the Clans enjoy unparalleled build flexibility which results something like the Dakka MCII-B as the Dakka Meta-Mech.

The Changes introduced will make it so that, well, the UACs are effectively functioning as AC40/AC20/AC10/AC4s, or rather AC34/17/8.5/3.4 respectively and go about from there. The reduction of damage output is necessary to not make the CD skyrocket, and for the Clan's side, this also gives more use with the CACs that which have higher damage/trigger-pull.

The UACs done this way will further punctuate their Burst damage use, while the standard ACs would still function as the basic rapid-fire cannon.

Quote

RACs

> Jam on Redline
> Reduced Jam Duration and Jam Dissipation

The RACs for the most part is fun, works like a more starey-laser that you need to aim and lead, but it's also compromising. In most cases, you'd be running this thing redline, as the instances of fire are too short for the jam-bar to completely dissipate, and the fact that you build it up once you have to spin up again means that you are incentivised to shoot the whole burn to maximize it anyways. For the case of RAC2 doing 2.637 EDPS which is lower than AC5 if you are shooting it properly, it instead has 3.929 DPS when you are redlining it.

One more concern with this format is that with having RNG-Based burn-time, if RNGesus smiles at you, it could be incredibly be powerful and broken, it's frustrating to the other side that they are constantly burned down by the constant fire, that you effectively cannot fire because you are completely suppressed.

Because now it jams on redline, with shorter dissipation, it has less ability to lock-down opponents while at the same time more controllable, as one can simply balance the jam-bar with the gauge.

Quote

CACS

> Much like LBXs, they no longer count towards ghost-heat.

The CAC, note that Clan ACs are just useless, they have little anything to do above the UACs aside from less GH penalty and lower heat overall, but honestly that means you are going to still lose on a lot of DPS/Ton. You can be more pinpoint with more ACs, but realistically just overwhelm them with superior DPS, works better and more fun anyways. The IS ACs can get away in most cases, because their standard ACs are single-slug, which has a massive difference. The CACs still doing the same burst-fire, means it's going to be spread anyways

The idea with CACs being separate from GH is that they can be used to pad the UACs. Lightweight and thereby build flexibility is what Clans have, and so the way to go around this advantage is to FORCE them to use more tonnage. By allowing them to pad their AC fire with CACs while enforcing penalty on UACs, this will force them to make use of more tonnage. They can either approach the game with DPS with less tonnage, or with pinpoint with more tonnage.

Admittedly, with the proposed changes to UACs, this mean that the CACs would have better damage/trigger-pull, and if anything a good way to differentiate the weapon. But effectively, they are still AC20/10/5/2 versus AC34/17/8.5/3.4. The CACs this way still allows Clan to make use of their tonnage to augment with more consistent damage, that which compensate with the reduction of the CUAC's damage output.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 October 2020 - 03:51 PM.


#2 RickySpanish

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 05:52 AM

Ah yes! The super, duper, overpowered Ultra Autocannon 20. Man that thing is just toxic with its almighty volley of shells that rarely find their mark, and requires the user to remain exposed for the duration of the shot. Better nerf that right down just to make sure not even the Hunchie IIC can occasionally make it work at point blank range.

#3 The6thMessenger

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 06:58 AM

View PostRickySpanish, on 13 October 2020 - 05:52 AM, said:

Ah yes! The super, duper, overpowered Ultra Autocannon 20. Man that thing is just toxic with its almighty volley of shells that rarely find their mark, and requires the user to remain exposed for the duration of the shot. Better nerf that right down just to make sure not even the Hunchie IIC can occasionally make it work at point blank range.


More of a user issue honestly.

It's not a problem right now, but eliminating the RNG, if it's constantly bursting at 40 damage, even 60 damage as you use the double-tap near the end of the cooldown and then quickly double-tap on the next cooldown, it can quickly chew through a component -- you don't have to worry about the next double-tap being messed up because there isn't any jam, so that 60 damage upfront is ensured.

Now assume that with the Hunchy-IIC, the one of only few that can use two UAC20s without penalty, that's going to be between 80 and 120 ensured burst damage. Something has to give with this kind of format.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 13 October 2020 - 07:03 AM.


#4 ShiverMeRivets

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 08:04 AM

RACs are not really RNGesus dependent. They are 100% reliable below the red line, and nearly guaranteed to jam within 1 second of entering the red. This is why I prefer RACs over UACs - the former are totally predictable. Treat reaching the red as your “cooldown” time, and you will never jam.

RACs most definitely don’t need any buffs.

#5 VonBruinwald

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 10:14 AM

I like what you're going for but I'd like to see a play on volley sizes with a unified split between the two smallest and two largest sizes:

Volley sizes:

cUAC 20/10 = 4
cUAC 5/2 = 2

isUAC 20/10 = 2
isUAC 5/2 = 1

cAC 20/10 = 2
cAC 5/2 = 1

isAC 20/10 = 1
isAC 5/2 = 1

It would incentive smaller/standard AC usage on clan mechs with precision damage over DPS.

View PostShiverMeRivets, on 13 October 2020 - 08:04 AM, said:

RACs are not really RNGesus dependent. They are 100% reliable below the red line, and nearly guaranteed to jam within 1 second of entering the red. This is why I prefer RACs over UACs - the former are totally predictable. Treat reaching the red as your “cooldown” time, and you will never jam.

RACs most definitely don’t need any buffs.


I'd almost agree RAC's don't need buffing, but for the opposite reason. Too many times have I been redlining and waiting for the jam so long as to risk chancing fate and pushing in. Of course the jam does kick in but only once I'm in the middle of no-mans land and totally exposed. Playing dice with RNGesus is not a wise decision.

Only thing RAC (5's) need is a reduction in heat.


Edit: Also; We need Light AC's!

Edited by VonBruinwald, 13 October 2020 - 10:19 AM.


#6 RickySpanish

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 10:26 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 13 October 2020 - 06:58 AM, said:


More of a user issue honestly.

It's not a problem right now, but eliminating the RNG, if it's constantly bursting at 40 damage, even 60 damage as you use the double-tap near the end of the cooldown and then quickly double-tap on the next cooldown, it can quickly chew through a component -- you don't have to worry about the next double-tap being messed up because there isn't any jam, so that 60 damage upfront is ensured.

Now assume that with the Hunchy-IIC, the one of only few that can use two UAC20s without penalty, that's going to be between 80 and 120 ensured burst damage. Something has to give with this kind of format.


Sounds like eliminating rng isn't such a good idea then.

Perhaps though, it is a user issue - I certainly do see a lot of top players using U-AC20s instead of twinned U-AC10s for example.

Edited by RickySpanish, 13 October 2020 - 10:29 AM.


#7 LordNothing

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 10:40 AM

we doing this again. give me new weapons, not rework old ones. weapon variants ala mw5 are acceptable.

#8 My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 12:20 PM

So question, why try reinvent the wheel?

#9 VonBruinwald

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 12:23 PM

View PostGloster-, on 13 October 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:

So question, why try reinvent the wheel?


Because:

Wheels -> Treads -> Tanks -> MECHS!

#10 The6thMessenger

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 03:14 PM

View PostRickySpanish, on 13 October 2020 - 10:26 AM, said:

Sounds like eliminating rng isn't such a good idea then.

Perhaps though, it is a user issue - I certainly do see a lot of top players using U-AC20s instead of twinned U-AC10s for example.


Yeah, but even with RNG in the current game, you can still do the 60-Damage burst from a UAC20, it's just not ensured. The RNG isn't a fun mechanic, that is why I would like to see it removed, as it's a dumb way to penalize while still having moment-to-moment broken instances, the WTF nature of RNG.

I never said it's weak, if anything the thesis is that, well, the UAC20s are quite powerful, so I could see why the UAC20s would be used by top players.

The UAC20s functioning like AC34s however than an AC40, that seems okay I guess, it's less "broken" (note the parenthesis) as before.

View PostVonBruinwald, on 13 October 2020 - 10:14 AM, said:

I like what you're going for but I'd like to see a play on volley sizes with a unified split between the two smallest and two largest sizes:

Volley sizes:

Spoiler


It would incentive smaller/standard AC usage on clan mechs with precision damage over DPS.


Not sure if we should go to that route. We'd be nerfing Clan UAC10, and buffing the IS AC20 with respect to pinpoint damage. Sure we can do that, but we might change the weapon too much such as adjusting volley-interval.

View PostVonBruinwald, on 13 October 2020 - 10:14 AM, said:

I'd almost agree RAC's don't need buffing, but for the opposite reason. Too many times have I been redlining and waiting for the jam so long as to risk chancing fate and pushing in. Of course the jam does kick in but only once I'm in the middle of no-mans land and totally exposed. Playing dice with RNGesus is not a wise decision.

Only thing RAC (5's) need is a reduction in heat.


I agree that it doesn't need buffing, but reworked. With my suggested values, if anything, has lower effective DPS anyways so it's a nerf. It also has reduced heat.


View PostVonBruinwald, on 13 October 2020 - 10:14 AM, said:

Edit: Also; We need Light AC's!


Yes.

#11 thievingmagpi

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 03:36 PM

rng risk is baked into UAC playstyle.

#12 LordNothing

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 06:08 PM

View PostGloster-, on 13 October 2020 - 12:20 PM, said:

So question, why try reinvent the wheel?


because wheels are lostech.





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