25 replies to this topic

[AjerWerklWerkl]

Well, I finally reached Tier 1 yesterday, and thought I'd share some of my learnings. (I've dropped back into Tier 2 because I switched back to some "fun" mechs, none of which work well now. More on that below...)

One pre-comment: kudos to PGI for a much better matchmaker. Yes there are still stomps, but many many more games are close than they ever were before the matchmaker tweaks a few months ago.

1) It is better to pick one's very best mechs and try to level up, or just play normally?
What I found was that playing normally is much more fun, because if I stay where I belong, lots of mechs are viable. Playing too far above my ability, only about 4-5 high-damage mechs consistently work, with the VGL-3 ATM27 build being the only really guaranteed way to keep moving up because of its mix of speed, jump capability, high firepower, and plenty of ammo. In the VGL-3, I can actually get top match score once in a while, which really helps!

As they say, it's the journey not the destination. Being attached to a certain tier achievement absolutely reduces the fun of the game.

2) As I've posted below, PGI need to reduce the weight of damage in the match score.
Right now smart play just isn't rewarded enough. Yes, very often smart play leads to damage, but reducing the weight to 40% from 50% would implicitly add weight to other contributions.

3) Strikes help... too much.
I'd always been proud not to use any consumables, but the extra damage from the strikes helps. (I still totally suck at using them!) Overall I still think strikes should be removed, or do much less damage so they are area denial tools vs damage tools. At higher levels it's CONSTANT strikes. One game I was hit 5 times (Mining Collective, waiting with the team, stuck because the other team had taken the top). That just sucked.

4) Never be AFK, or try to play in parallel with other tasks if you want to level up.
If you are 20 seconds late to start in an assault, you are going to get separated and killed very early. I realized my large number of AFKs/late joins was a major factor slowing my progress (and skewing my stats) because if you're lowest out of 24, you lose a ton of Tier XP! My apologies to all the teammates I let down in the process.

5) NASCAR is a problem straight through from Tier 2 up.
I didn't notice it getting particularly worse as my tier was rising. But once it starts in a game, it's a terrible feeling panicking to keep up. Really really not fun.

6) Stealthy gauss, sneaky lights, etc... are really hard to pull off at higher tiers unless you're really good.
People work well as a team and if you're bugging someone, friends of theirs will come soon and get you... so no more sneaky fun for me.

7) Some spawn points badly need to be adjusted due to Group Queue integration.
If you are in an assault with a bunch of lights in a far-off spawn point, you will be dead before you can meet the team on some maps, like Mining Collective. Simple solution: just move the spawn points closer together, PGI!

8) Sad but true: if you want to go up in Tier, never help an isolated teammate.
I do it all the time, and every time, I get killed of course. Position is EVERYTHING.

So... what's next for me?

I can't imagine continuing to play only my 4-5 best mechs to try going up further... it's getting boring. So I think I'm going to just let my tier slide back down by doing stupid things. It won't take long.

On one hand I'm curious to know how high I COULD go... with the VGL-3 I think I can still go a bunch more, having done top match score even with really top players in the drop.

But on the other hand, it's much more fun not to care, and to use a broader range of mechs.

Curious to hear your thoughts and lessons too!

Edited by AjerWerklWerkl, 27 October 2020 - 11:17 AM.

[LordNothing]

i can change my direction of travel simply by what mechs i use. its actually my new yardstick for how good a build is.

strongly agree with #2. its sad that a headshot gets the same points as taking off an vestigial arm with no weapons or equipment installed. i think rewarding component destruction higher than raw damage would do the trick. or rewarding efficient kills. perhaps a system where you get paid based on components and equipment destroyed rather than hitpoints delivered. stripping armor is useful but if you aren't breaking things you aren't winning.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 October 2020 - 05:26 PM.

[AjerWerklWerkl]

LordNothing, on 23 October 2020 - 04:08 PM, said:

i can change my direction of travel simply by what mechs i use. its actually my new yardstick for how good a build is.

strongly agree with #2. its sad that a headshot gets the same points as taking off an vestigial arm with no weapons or equipment installed. i think rewarding component destruction higher than raw damage would do the trick. or rewarding efficient kills. perhaps a system where you get paid based on components and equipment destroyed rather than hitpoints delivered. stripping armor is useful but if you aren't breaking things you aren't winning.

It's tricky because of course if someone else strips off all the armor, it's easy to come in with LBXs at the end and destroy components. I think the easy answer is to just reduce damage to 40% of Match Score... that automatically increases the weight of component destruction.

[RickySpanish]

Just roll an alt if you want that fun feeling, but be warned that it's not really terribly fun at all for long. Knocking clueless people at t3 down in say, an SRM Assassin just reminds you of what you really want - well balanced, close games. T1 is aaaall over the place for that, because the matchmaker seemingly has a hard time putting together t1 matches and so opens the gates too all and sundry. Plus there's the group element to further tangle things. Many 'Mechs are viable at t1 by the way, just make sure they go at 80 kph or more, or pack a hell of a punch.

[LordNothing]

AjerWerklWerkl, on 23 October 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

It's tricky because of course if someone else strips off all the armor, it's easy to come in with LBXs at the end and destroy components. I think the easy answer is to just reduce damage to 40% of Match Score... that automatically increases the weight of component destruction.

i for one can't come up with a simple algorithm to define efficient damage vs sandblasting. and sandblasting does help the team so im not saying that shouldn't be rewarded, but it does cause huge damage numbers that give it way too much credit.

a drop in damage payouts is at least a start. but then you also add rewards for destroying equipment. take out a mech's most powerful weapon like a uac10 or an mrm40 should pay out more than knocking out a small laser or a flamer. destroying something that reduced the mechs effectiveness like heat sinks or a side of a cxl/lfe or an ecm (more if stealth armor is installed) should also pay out.

change the scoring for component destruction where certain components are worth more than others, heads should pay out most because they are the hardest to pull off and immediately remove the mech from the match. taking a leg reduces mobility and taking an st removes the connected arm and having a chance to get a kill on isxl. taking out from behind should pay more than from in front.

also reward opening up a component (removing its armor) because that gives another player an opportinuty to remove it, effective sandblasting opens up components and should pay more than just turning the armor orange.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 October 2020 - 09:39 PM.

[Kodyn]

AjerWerklWerkl, on 23 October 2020 - 04:05 PM, said:

Well, I finally reached Tier 1 yesterday, and thought I'd share some of my learnings. (I've dropped back into Tier 2 because I switched back to some "fun" mechs, none of which work well now. More on that below...)

One pre-comment: kudos to PGI for a much better matchmaker. Yes there are still stomps, but many many more games are close than they ever were before the matchmaker tweaks a few months ago.

........


Curious to hear your thoughts and lessons too!

I have experienced the exact opposite of your findings, on my way back up to T1. Matches were much more enjoyable and closer back in the beginning of the year, before they trashed MM and combined queues. I really wish I had your luck or whatever you're smoking. Gameplay is in the worst state I've ever seen, players are making choices even they admit out loud are dumb, because no one really seems to care about anything anymore.

Most days it feels like I'm playing "MehWO", with the level of effort put forth. I think it got worse as I went up in Tier, because I recognize these names and know how they used to perform. Stomps are still the norm by far for me, usually on the losing side. If I take an ECM heavy or medium, I generally win. If I take anything but that, including mass dakka mechs that you don't even have to try with, I lose- even if I get 1k dmg, 4-5 kills. Most of my wins are the type where the team Nascars so hard you're all fighting just to do some dmg, so I wind up with sub 500 dmg and maybe a kill. Took zero effort to reach T1, but T1 itself I see my bar rising and falling constantly, because now I'm even going down on a good chunk of the wins, because they're stomps. I go up in PSR more on losses when I'm lucky enough to be the least ambivalent player on my team.

It's been super disheartening. I truly wish my journey back to T1 had been anything approaching yours OP, you sound like I did back in the early spring when PGI seemed for once to be learning and the game felt like it was in a halfway decent spot, aside from player numbers.

[RickySpanish]

I think it has a lot to do with what time you play Kodyn, and who is online because the pop is that low. My experience has tended to be like yours.

[GentleMouse]

LordNothing, on 23 October 2020 - 04:08 PM, said:

i can change my direction of travel simply by what mechs i use. its actually my new yardstick for how good a build is.

strongly agree with #2. its sad that a headshot gets the same points as taking off an vestigial arm with no weapons or equipment installed. i think rewarding component destruction higher than raw damage would do the trick. or rewarding efficient kills. perhaps a system where you get paid based on components and equipment destroyed rather than hitpoints delivered. stripping armor is useful but if you aren't breaking things you aren't winning.

AjerWerklWerkl, on 23 October 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

It's tricky because of course if someone else strips off all the armor, it's easy to come in with LBXs at the end and destroy components. I think the easy answer is to just reduce damage to 40% of Match Score... that automatically increases the weight of component destruction.

I think the solution to this would be when a component is destroyed (by anyone) the significance of that component's destruction (measured by destroyed critical slots) gets added to the match score of everyone who damaged said component weighted by how much damage each person did (with 10% going for free to the person who actually destroyed it). So that way if you blow out a Fafnir's cockpit in one shot you get full credit as though you destroyed every component. Additionally if you deal 100 damage to an atlas center torso and then your team swarms it for the last 100 damage while your RAC's are unjamming you get 40% of the credit for the whole kill.

I'm not sure though if the game engine actually supports these kinds of calculations though.

Edited by GentleMouse, 24 October 2020 - 10:05 PM.

[LordNothing]

only problem is crit slots alone only indicate how bulky a weapon system is, not its relative effectiveness on the battlefield. for the is, taking out an lb2 would score significantly better than taking out an ac2 despite being effectively the same threat reduction. is mechs would also get lower scores than clan mechs as clans tend to have more compact equipment.

instead base scores on weapon size. most weapons come in 3 or 4 sizes. so a four rank equipment system seems like it would work, higher rank means more score. not sure if it would be a flat multiplier (50 * rank) or a bonus multiplier added to a base value (example: 100 + 25*rank). taking out a component also counts as taking out all the working equipment it contains, and you can also score though crits. though some finagling is required to rank each weapon type:

autocannons come in 4 sizes in both tech bases already. so rank by increasing size. no distinction between type.

rac 2,5 would be rank 2,3 since they are stronger than their equivalent rated acs.

light, standard (is and clan) and heavy gauss rifles would count as rank 2,3,4, respectively.

is has 3 laser sizes while clans have 4, clan micros would line up with is smalls at rank 1 and go up from there. no distinction between type.

is light ppc would be rank 2 and hppc and cerppc would be rank 4s, and all others rank 3.

lrms, atms and mrms all have 4 ranks already.

srms would take up ranks 1,2,3 for standard/streak and ranks 2,3,4 if artemis.

narcs would be a 2.

all other weapons would be a 1.

shs would be 1, doubles 2.

ecm is worth 2 without stealth and 3 with.

all baps and tags worth 1 (even light versions).

lfe/xl sts and cockpit would be 4.

targeting computers would be tricky as there are 6 sizes, perhaps do something like 1,2,2,3,4,4.

ammo would be worth 1 including half ton (keep in mind if you crit one they all go and you get counted for each, cause an internal ammo explosion for huge points).

this is all completely arbitrary of course based on my opinion of where i think each weapon belongs. a more thorough analysis is probably warranted. also number of ranks may be tweaked for more accurate ranking.

Edited by LordNothing, 25 October 2020 - 06:20 AM.

[Kodyn]

RickySpanish, on 24 October 2020 - 08:18 AM, said:

I think it has a lot to do with what time you play Kodyn, and who is online because the pop is that low. My experience has tended to be like yours.

It very well could be the case- some of the slightly better matches I've had recently were late last night. Thursday and Friday nights were terrible, and I'm very familiar with the EU timezone folks who play during NA daytime- I expect them to play that way. I work from home as a contractor, so I can tend to play at times which are all over the place, though lately it's been mostly NA prime times, which used to be the best times for optimal teamwork.

I tend towards the cynical side, which has only been exacerbated recently as I've watched players far better than I am consistently seem to underperform- it starts to feel intentional. Like when at match start someone says "stay together" and people used to jokingly command wheel "negative"- except now teams really do scatter at the beginning of a match, it's really surreal to see over and over in T1.

Now I'm about to try some matches on a Sunday- traditionally the worst gameplay day of the week, so obviously I'm a bit of a masochist in any event. I may even level a mech while I'm at it, just to complete the personal punishment....

[AjerWerklWerkl]

Thanks folks for your comments! Some responses:

LordNothing: I appreciate all the careful thinking re component destruction! I agree it's quite complex... which is why the first obvious step is for PGI to reduce damage to 40% of match score. Implicitly that will elevate component destructions and other helpful actions like flanking, hit and run, etc...

GentleMouse: Ditto on the component thoughts... love your name too!!

Kodyn: Interesting... Some days when it feels like match quality is horrific, and I am always in exactly the wrong spots, I close the app and come back another time. I do genuinely find tons of close games, far more than the stomps from before, so I enjoy it. I do find that I'm actually more of a factor than I would have thought. So if I pick a stealthy mech for example, my contributions are much lower due to my lack of skill, and my team is essentially down a mech while I'm sneaking around.

RickySpanish: Exactly... population is a huge factor.

Lockheed_: Seems like we are very much on the same page. I do find that damage does correlate pretty well with contribution, but yeah, a system that encourages more torso hits and less CT hits feels off...

[RickySpanish]

Lockheed_, on 25 October 2020 - 10:40 AM, said:

I completely agree with you. I have made the same obersvations. I have stopped my climb even before reaching T1 because I really enjoy playing weird builds and lights and although I have at least 10 mechs that I can use to climb, but I am incredibly bored by just going for raw damage and gaming the PSR system. You basically have a disadvantage with the current system if you surgically remove the enemies CT, not to mention going for rear CT on assaults in a PB is now pretty much a guaruanteed drop in PSR.

Curiously, I found Lights to be the best class for a while for me. My match score took a dive but I tended to end up on the winning side more often than if I was piloting a Medium or Heavy. I play evenings EST from 7 to 9 and 10 to midnight, I avoid the weekend because it's just horrid. I've found that it's worth checking twitch to see who is streaming and what builds are popular that night. The population is so damned poor that you really can make an informed decision about what speed you want to be going at.

[AjerWerklWerkl]

RickySpanish, on 25 October 2020 - 09:27 PM, said:

Curiously, I found Lights to be the best class for a while for me. My match score took a dive but I tended to end up on the winning side more often than if I was piloting a Medium or Heavy. I play evenings EST from 7 to 9 and 10 to midnight, I avoid the weekend because it's just horrid. I've found that it's worth checking twitch to see who is streaming and what builds are popular that night. The population is so damned poor that you really can make an informed decision about what speed you want to be going at.

Heh, it's both sad and interesting that you can figure out so much like that!

[AjerWerklWerkl]

Oh, I also forgot to mention -- one of the very annoying things with higher-tier matches is that about 25% of the wins are too fast and you can't even get to the enemies fast enough to do any meaningful damage!!!

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

AjerWerklWerkl, on 23 October 2020 - 04:05 PM, said:

1) It is better to pick one's very best mechs and try to level up, or just play normally?

If you want to tier up, sure. Run the very best so you can grind that xp bar but you should never feel obliged to grind it anymore. If you want to play with friends you can just group up, no need to be in the same tier to sync drop anymore.

On the flip side don't intentionally run trash which is 'fun' so you knowing drop tier.

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2) As I've posted below, PGI need to reduce the weight of damage in the match score.

MWO is a shooter, having damage be a core part of the PSR calculation is fine.

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3) Strikes help... too much.

Strikes mostly just farm damage, you get the occassional strike that finishes off crit mechs or lights but most of the time you're just doing a load of chip damage.

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I'd always been proud not to use any consumables,

Like saying "I've always been proud of only using my LA weapons"

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or do much less damage so they are area denial tools vs damage tools

They're area denial because they have the ability to threaten crit or smaller mechs, reducing their damage just means more people can YOLO through.

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8) Sad but true: if you want to go up in Tier, never help an isolated teammate.

Never help an isolated teammate ever. What happens when you go to help one guy who is isolated? Two people become isolated.

Edited by Gloster-, 27 October 2020 - 08:30 PM.

[LordNothing]

if a team mate gets out of position in the first place its usually an indication that he isn't worth saving. its better to lose one mech than two.

[JediPanther]

I went from t2 down to t5 since the q mere. Do I suck that much? Nope. I just got bored playing the few same meta mechs over all the other mechs I have since that got super boring fast. I spent a month playing missile and narc locusts with the two missile quirked ones;messed around with a 3l(c) I forgot I even had. Ran the Free Kill aka Jenners for lol reaction of people seeing one being used.

Tried piloting my lest used weight class thus a lot of dying in atlases which have the worst of the worst mobility stats on is. I spectated and taught a few people how to use the Catapults for a while so they now know to use lasers far more than lrm and why they shouldn't be 'in the back' when a few mechs group up.

Now I'm back to just playing what ever mech and build for the fun of it. been using the sunspider vg as a daka build. It plays a lot like my cptl-k2 so I run an almost mirror build of ac 10s and lasers.

Do I care much about getting to t2-t1? Not at all. I'd rather just have fun using my mechs and builds than a boring i-win-now meta build. I'm space rich with over 102 mechs now;don't need another mech.

edit: as for a lesson learned here is one that works for t0 to t1000: The team that uses the most team work always wins over one that does not. I've fought pugs,pugs and 4-mans, pug and bigger group, famous unit tag here etc. TEAM WORK WINS.

Edited by JediPanther, 28 October 2020 - 04:51 PM.

[crazytimes]

JediPanther, on 28 October 2020 - 04:47 PM, said:

I went from t2 down to t5 since the q mere. Do I suck that much?

edit: as for a lesson learned here is one that works for t0 to t1000: The team that uses the most team work always wins over one that does not. I've fought pugs,pugs and 4-mans, pug and bigger group, famous unit tag here etc. TEAM WORK WINS.

I don't know if being the ECM light hiding at the end of every loss to maintain an interestingly high survival to w/l ratio is really team work as such.

It's possible to not be in tier 5 without just playing strict meta builds.

[JediPanther]

crazytimes, on 29 October 2020 - 02:49 AM, said:

I don't know if being the ECM light hiding at the end of every loss to maintain an interestingly high survival to w/l ratio is really team work as such.

It's possible to not be in tier 5 without just playing strict meta builds.

Possible yes but meta is the fastest way up. Also I don't have a problem telling the enemy if the last mech is hiding, running out of bounds to suicide, afk/dc or just refusing to engage the enemy. If you've spectated me in a light as the last alive you are aware of how often I kamikaze with over ride on into the enemy. The days of a single light killing 4 or more enemy to clutch out a win in qp are long over. Far better you die in a brief hail of fire than waste everyone's time doing whatever but not engaging the enemy. Most of us are here to shoot and kill other mechs not stand around looking at maps even if the texture artists did a really great job on the atlas in that crashed ship in the desert or you really have a thing for that girl walk animation on solaris city for examples.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

JediPanther, on 29 October 2020 - 01:32 PM, said:

Possible yes but meta is the fastest way up.

By far the weapon most responsible for undeserved tier ups is LRMs. They have an extremely low bar of entry to use, don't need much suitational awareness or positioning to be able to hit the enemy.
As long as you can hold your mouse on a target you can farm with LRMs.

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The days of a single light killing 4 or more enemy to clutch out a win in qp are long over

If anything with the smaller playerbase and lower skilled pilots being pulled into T1 more often, its easier than every to clutch in a light.