43 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Just curious. Does NASCAR also happen to other games? Or is it just here in MWO?

[RickySpanish]

It happens in other games, sort of. A couple examples:

Guild Wars 2 PvP: Structured PvP (as opposed to world pvp) in GW2 is based on capturing and holding control points that generate victory points. Often, teams will have a couple of "bunker" builds designed to hold onto a control point for as long as possible. Rotation happens when one team decides to push a control point, forcing the opposition's bunker to retreat, who will rotate onto another control point that is less defended. Things are complicated by PvE bosses and roaming (or +1) builds designed to quickly reach and assist in fights, tipping the odds in their team's favour.

League of Legends: Again, players will react to knowledge of where the opposition is, and attack areas where defence is weak. MOBAs are fairly immune to Nascar though imo, mainly because there is a defined direction of battle toward the enemy's stronghold. Plus multiple avenues through no-man's-land type areas where visibility is low.

I think the reason Nascar is so prevalent in MWO is the total lack of importance of objectives. In both GW2 and League (until late game!) death is no catastrophic. Instead, death presents an opportunity to push an objective that is now less defended. Nascar is one hundred percent the result of bad game design.

[The pessimistic optimist]

RickySpanish, on 23 October 2020 - 05:54 AM, said:

It happens in other games, sort of. A couple examples:

Guild Wars 2 PvP: Structured PvP (as opposed to world pvp) in GW2 is based on capturing and holding control points that generate victory points. Often, teams will have a couple of "bunker" builds designed to hold onto a control point for as long as possible. Rotation happens when one team decides to push a control point, forcing the opposition's bunker to retreat, who will rotate onto another control point that is less defended. Things are complicated by PvE bosses and roaming (or +1) builds designed to quickly reach and assist in fights, tipping the odds in their team's favour.

League of Legends: Again, players will react to knowledge of where the opposition is, and attack areas where defence is weak. MOBAs are fairly immune to Nascar though imo, mainly because there is a defined direction of battle toward the enemy's stronghold. Plus multiple avenues through no-man's-land type areas where visibility is low.

I think the reason Nascar is so prevalent in MWO is the total lack of importance of objectives. In both GW2 and League (until late game!) death is no catastrophic. Instead, death presents an opportunity to push an objective that is now less defended. Nascar is one hundred percent the result of bad game design.

Why conquest is the better game mode

[RickySpanish]

^ I agree, it at least tilts the match in favour of capping nodes once the enemy team is dealt with

[The pessimistic optimist]

RickySpanish, on 23 October 2020 - 12:14 PM, said:

^ I agree, it at least tilts the match in favour of capping nodes once the enemy team is dealt with

Why it's better in faction with re-spawns

[Nightbird]

Flanking exists in most games. In MWO TTK is long so you have time to make a full circle.

[VonBruinwald]

SirSmokes, on 23 October 2020 - 09:18 AM, said:

Why conquest is the better game mode

You know what mode I never saw a Nascar happen in... Escort.

[The pessimistic optimist]

VonBruinwald, on 23 October 2020 - 12:22 PM, said:

You know what mode I never saw a Nascar happen in... Escort.

Yup I remember good old escort too bad VIP AI made it not fun

[Monkey Lover]

SirSmokes, on 23 October 2020 - 12:27 PM, said:

Yup I remember good old escort too bad VIP AI made it not fun

Only issue is they didn't tell you were the AI was going so you couldn't plan. Other than this i loved when it forced us to attack somewhere we wouldn't normally go.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 23 October 2020 - 12:30 PM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Monkey Lover, on 23 October 2020 - 12:29 PM, said:

Only issue is they didn't tell you were the AI was going so you couldn't plan. Other than this i loved when it forced is to attack somewhere we wouldn't normally go.

I would be OK with bring that back with some changes

[VonBruinwald]

Monkey Lover, on 23 October 2020 - 12:29 PM, said:

Only issue is they didn't tell you were the AI was going so you couldn't plan. Other than this i loved when it forced is to attack somewhere we wouldn't normally go.

There was something incredibly satisfying about losing our entire team only for the enemy to realise we baited them to the wrong side of the map and secured our victory with an evac.

[Willard Phule]

The concept of outflanking an enemy exists in most strategic/tactical games. When both sides are as mobile as they are in MW, the possibility of both teams trying to outflank each other at the same time happens a lot. Look at the "race to the sea" from WW1.

When the groups are confined to a circular area, especially one designed to funnel both sides toward the center, you end up with the toiletbowl effect like we've got here.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Willard Phule, on 23 October 2020 - 03:08 PM, said:

The concept of outflanking an enemy exists in most strategic/tactical games. When both sides are as mobile as they are in MW, the possibility of both teams trying to outflank each other at the same time happens a lot. Look at the "race to the sea" from WW1.

When the groups are confined to a circular area, especially one designed to funnel both sides toward the center, you end up with the toiletbowl effect like we've got here.

Not fun gameplay

[JediPanther]

Nascar happens when you have most mechs going the same speed funneled by map design. Escort was crap and far too easy to kill the enemy team once you knew which of the ways the atlas took.

[The pessimistic optimist]

JediPanther, on 23 October 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

Nascar happens when you have most mechs going the same speed funneled by map design. Escort was crap and far too easy to kill the enemy team once you knew which of the ways the atlas took.

Still not fun gameplay and yea escort the way it was sucked most of the time

Edited by SirSmokes, 23 October 2020 - 03:37 PM.

[LordNothing]

SirSmokes, on 23 October 2020 - 12:30 PM, said:

I would be OK with bring that back with some changes

like give the atlas some lams and maybe a few guns.

better yet replace with superheavy and make it fully armed.

or better yet make it one of these.

[The pessimistic optimist]

LordNothing, on 23 October 2020 - 03:54 PM, said:

like give the atlas some lams and maybe a few guns.

better yet replace with superheavy and make it fully armed.

or better yet make it one of these.

Well yea why dose the escort target have the be an Atlas good point

[LordNothing]

SirSmokes, on 23 October 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Well yea why dose the escort target have the be an Atlas good point

or just apply some animations to one of the mfb models in the game.

doesnt really make much sense for the atlas to be as strong as it is.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 October 2020 - 04:05 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

part of it is bad map design in MWO. many of the maps have some roughly central structure that everyone just hides behind and rotates around (one of the reasons i like Polar Highlands and to a lesser degree both Frozen City maps). another part is bad tactical thinking. also a lack of listening, its been my experience that 8/10 times its the team that stops rotating first usually wins since with mechs having differing speeds they tend to string out. if your whole team turns to face the enemy instead of running away then they can take out the quicker mechs before their heavier backup arrives. mind you no plan outlasts contact with the enemy.

[OP8]

MWO's Nascar problem exists because of canyon network, and now annoyingly hibernal; and the phenomena becomes habit that then trickles into all the other maps with a central mobility feature. Hear me out, this is pretty specific.

All new players who are trying to learn how to exploit the terrain, or the process of strategic flanking, will spend countless hours being conditioned by canyon network to rotate like a flushing toilet. Mechs have to stay in motion to reduce the fire they take, and to chase enemies to attack them. Most mechs driven by novice pilots don't have jump jets and are regulated by the steep walls of the canyons, and are somewhat forced to keep moving to avoid enemies clumping up on them. Canyon network only has two ramps wide enough to fit 2 mechs side by side, and they function as a ratchetting device.

The ratchetting device works like this. A mech without jets walks up the ramp in either retreat or attempting to flank. Once at the top, if you need to stay in motion for whatever reason, you're almost forced to drop down a steep unwalkable slope that prevents you from turning back around. The map has two of these one way bottlenecks set one nascar lap's diameter apart from each other. After each ratchetting action incurred by each team, the terrain makes it nearly suicidal to try and engage enemies behind you, because many mechs' arm weapons typically assigned for point defense at that range, can't damage the mechs about to run up their arse from above. Mechs moving counter clockwise around the center can gang up on targets and stay in formation 3-4 mechs wide on a firing line. Mechs moving clockwise can only do so as a suicidal, single file turkey shoot in a narrow, predictable path.

Since the map is compact, easy to understand, easy to see daylight, without too much ground cover to irritate assault pilots getting legged by invisible lights in the bushes, it gets voted in with a higher probability than most of the other maps. Due to that popularity and ease to learn on, all pilots become conditioned to repeat that behavior on any other map where they encounter an obstacle of about a half a grid square or larger in footprint. It trains pilots to keep chasing to the left for increased odds of survival. Canyon network specifically programs all new players to nascar on any map with a large enough obstruction.

All that being said, when they released Hibernal, I was THAT MUCH MORE FRIGGIN annoyed that of all maps to clone, the chose the map that trains players to exploit this dumb strategy at every opportunity. Hibernal needed to be a mirrored opposite, so the inherent ratchetting effect could teach players that the left turn potato tornado was specifically not always a good idea; let alone impossible on occasion. Canyon and Hibernal both function like tesla valves that condition players to only flank in one direction of rotation, and despite few people acknowledging precisely why, everybody is intensely bothered by such conditioning as it contaminates every other map in some degree.

Reverse the ramps in hibernal, show players that both directions work and are necessary, give both canyon and hibernal at least 3 day/night/weather cycles, defeat the conditioning of ring around the A-hole.