52 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Nightbird, on 17 November 2020 - 10:28 AM, said:

Horseman, on 17 November 2020 - 09:41 AM, said:

You will find that some people don't care about the penalties. A shared resource pool that allows one bad pilot or troll to cause a loss for his team is not good design.

I'll agree with you that intentional griefing is an issue, where we differ is the scale.

Remove Friendly Fire.

[Nightbird]

I guess I'll address why I am not writing this proposal in a format fit for an MWO update.

With business proposals in general, we need plans that have a reasonable expectation to create revenue greater than cost. I do not doubt that many MWO proposals will be liked and will bring players back, and this will result in some revenue, but the question is will it be enough? Consider that back when the player base was 100% larger, PGI said mech packs were no longer profitable to make and sell.

MWO's largest monetization problem is that most mechs are free, and are an one time C-bill cost. This is true for QP and FP. MWO doesn't have a way to earn money from long term loyal players enjoying the game. Crazy right?

The problem with just bringing players back is that current players still have all the mechs they need and don't have an incentive to spend. This is a huge problem for proposals other than XML spreadsheet edits as even if the player base increases by 20%, that 20% has to pay for 100% of the update cost, a difficult prospect. In comparison, the subscription model means that a 20% increase in the player base means subscription revenue is 120%, far more sustainable.

True, PGI has not made it clear the degree of updates we can expect, they may even be willing to takes losses to grow MWO's population, but I have my doubts on that. This is why I wrote this proposal, in hopes of showing that making progress in features, player base, and revenue is possible.

Edited by Nightbird, 18 November 2020 - 11:01 AM.

[Nightbird]

I wrote up a defense of why Matchmaker is placed as top priority in this proposal here: https://mwomercs.com...hmaker-is-king/

I may or may not write up a similar defense of other critical priorities.

[Anjian]

Nightbird, on 18 November 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

I guess I'll address why I am not writing this proposal in a format fit for an MWO update.

With business proposals in general, we need plans that have a reasonable expectation to create revenue greater than cost. I do not doubt that many MWO proposals will be liked and will bring players back, and this will result in some revenue, but the question is will it be enough? Consider that back when the player base was 100% larger, PGI said mech packs were no longer profitable to make and sell.

MWO's largest monetization problem is that most mechs are free, and are an one time C-bill cost. This is true for QP and FP. MWO doesn't have a way to earn money from long term loyal players enjoying the game. Crazy right?

The problem with just bringing players back is that current players still have all the mechs they need and don't have an incentive to spend. This is a huge problem for proposals other than XML spreadsheet edits as even if the player base increases by 20%, that 20% has to pay for 100% of the update cost, a difficult prospect. In comparison, the subscription model means that a 20% increase in the player base means subscription revenue is 120%, far more sustainable.

True, PGI has not made it clear the degree of updates we can expect, they may even be willing to takes losses to grow MWO's population, but I have my doubts on that. This is why I wrote this proposal, in hopes of showing that making progress in features, player base, and revenue is possible.

This is a universal problem I see with every F2P game, and the sad part is that either they resort to scummy monetization methods, or they die out.

Edited by Anjian, 23 November 2020 - 07:19 PM.

[Gold13]

Nightbird, on 15 November 2020 - 12:08 AM, said:

From a development cost perspective, I hope it can be recognized that the number of new assets needed to start MW Eternal War is minimal. Going from MW5 to this UE MW MMO is mostly UI work, net server code, and Match Maker. It can re-use MW5's procedural map, most UIs, mechs of course, MWO's inventory system, and match database(expanded). I estimate that a budget of 2-3 million should be sufficient for this minimalist alpha version, PGI please correct me if I am wrong.

...

It should not be too hard to implement a basic shooter in Unreal Engine, however a great number of new assets would be needed to implement Escalation. I would not expect to see the amount of polish as other big budget FFA games. If starting with 3 each of pistols, smgs, assault rifles, a sniper, a shotgun, 3 battle armor/elemental chassis that can reuse small mech weapon assets, a hand crafted map, and the game mode itself, my rough estimate is a 5 million dollar commitment (correct me if wrong).

PGI has estimated it could take something like 2 years to get all of MWO's current functionality built out in Unreal, assuming that the current game was totally ignored that whole time. Let alone adding all this other stuff you're proposing, and on top of that adding the completely new titanfall clone fps battle royale mode you described. By the time all this stuff is playable, they're looking at less than half of the 5-year license extension left to cash in (if that). Like, it's a cool idea and all, but this is why you're getting feedback that it's out of scope.

Edited by Gold13, 25 November 2020 - 12:48 PM.

[Nightbird]

Gold13, on 25 November 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

PGI has estimated it could take something like 2 years to get all of MWO's current functionality built out in Unreal, assuming that the current game was totally ignored that whole time. Let alone adding all this other stuff you're proposing, and on top of that adding the completely new titanfall clone fps battle royale mode you described. By the time all this stuff is playable, they're looking at less than half of the 5-year license extension left to cash in (if that). Like, it's a cool idea and all, but this is why you're getting feedback that it's out of scope.

Thanks for the comment, but keep in mind I am tossing out 90% of MWO (all the QP, FP modes, and Solaris is gone) and also the battle royale mode is separate (something I listed in the first point).

The only things I mentioned to keep from MWO are the netcode (server, matches, hit reg, etc) and the inventory/store database system.

As for being out-of-scope, I'll just cut and paste:

Nightbird, on 18 November 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

I guess I'll address why I am not writing this proposal in a format fit for an MWO update.

With business proposals in general, we need plans that have a reasonable expectation to create revenue greater than cost. I do not doubt that many MWO proposals will be liked and will bring players back, and this will result in some revenue, but the question is will it be enough? Consider that back when the player base was 100% larger, PGI said mech packs were no longer profitable to make and sell.

MWO's largest monetization problem is that most mechs are free, and are an one time C-bill cost. This is true for QP and FP. MWO doesn't have a way to earn money from long term loyal players enjoying the game. Crazy right?

The problem with just bringing players back is that current players still have all the mechs they need and don't have an incentive to spend. This is a huge problem for proposals other than XML spreadsheet edits as even if the player base increases by 20%, that 20% has to pay for 100% of the update cost, a difficult prospect. In comparison, the subscription model means that a 20% increase in the player base means subscription revenue is 120%, far more sustainable.

True, PGI has not made it clear the degree of updates we can expect, they may even be willing to takes losses to grow MWO's population, but I have my doubts on that. This is why I wrote this proposal, in hopes of showing that making progress in features, player base, and revenue is possible.

Edited by Nightbird, 25 November 2020 - 01:02 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

My impression was that netcode in MW5 would have to be built from scratch. That might take them a year in itself once they figure out how to make the rest of MW5 work with it. They might have to do extensive rewriting since they never designed MW5 for networking. Not server authoritative anyway.

There's a lot of creative content here. I appreciate the passion. And I understand the proposed remedy to nascaring and deathballing. It does make me a bit curious how respawning in QP would play. A game mode where the objective is not to kill all enemy mechs but to do some objective? There would still have to be a skirmish mode. Or, would that be a new Solaris mode with different kinds of team sizes?

[Nightbird]

TheCaptainJZ, on 25 November 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

It does make me a bit curious how respawning in QP would play. A game mode where the objective is not to kill all enemy mechs but to do some objective? There would still have to be a skirmish mode. Or, would that be a new Solaris mode with different kinds of team sizes?

Thanks for your feedback. In my proposal - to respawn, you choose the mech and pilot you want to use, and select the point on the map (on your team's side) that you want to drop. For the one game mode I outlined, you can win by depleting the other team's resources (by killing their mechs) or by capturing objectives. Shooting mechs will always be the core of MW, the issue in today's QP modes is that the most effect way to win is to ignore objectives and kill the enemy team. It's important to make it at least 50:50 to vary the gameplay a little and keep it from become stale. I only proposed one mode but more should be added so long as it doesn't carry over today's problems.

The proposed Solaris mode is a battle royale format with strong FPS elements, intended to capitalize on the popularity of the new mode.

[Anjian]

TheCaptainJZ, on 25 November 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

There's a lot of creative content here. I appreciate the passion. And I understand the proposed remedy to nascaring and deathballing. It does make me a bit curious how respawning in QP would play. A game mode where the objective is not to kill all enemy mechs but to do some objective? There would still have to be a skirmish mode. Or, would that be a new Solaris mode with different kinds of team sizes?

Would work. There are other game precedents for it, one very successful one in fact. The difference is MW's sectional hit box mechanics but I doubt such mechanics will make a difference to the outcome.

But success and quality is a total package, and you need to execute everything well from top to bottom.

Nightbird, on 25 November 2020 - 03:52 PM, said:

Thanks for your feedback. In my proposal - to respawn, you choose the mech and pilot you want to use, and select the point on the map (on your team's side) that you want to drop. For the one game mode I outlined, you can win by depleting the other team's resources (by killing their mechs) or by capturing objectives.

Sounds kind of like War Thunder or Battle of Titans.

Quote

The proposed Solaris mode is a battle royale format with strong FPS elements, intended to capitalize on the popularity of the new mode.

You mean, switch between human and mech? Like Super Mecha Champions?

Edited by Anjian, 26 November 2020 - 11:45 PM.

[Nightbird]

Anjian, on 26 November 2020 - 11:44 PM, said:

You mean, switch between human and mech? Like Super Mecha Champions?

Here it is from the OP. That been said, it's just an idea with little chance of being implemented.

Nightbird, on 15 November 2020 - 12:08 AM, said:

Mechwarrior Escalation Features

(!) Escalation is intended to expand the appeal of the Mechwarrior Franchaise, and as such, takes more risks. This part of the proposal is only recommended if MW:EW is successful and a gamble to dramatically increase the player base is possible.

(!) FPS games are far more popular than Simulation games, and can serve as an entry point to introduce someone to mechs.

(o) Escalation is the latest blood sport developed on planet Solaris for the enjoyment of fans. The winners of the Escalation Grand Prix are acclaimed as the greatest warriors in the galaxy.

(o) Escalation is a free-for-all mode, where players are dropped onto a map in their pilot suit and side-arm.

(o) In the first of three phases, players fight using small arms, collect C-bills by finding caches and defeating other players.

(o) C-bills can be spent at any time to drop weapons and supplies from a dropship overhead, or helpful items such as cover, smoke, automatic turrets, UAVs.

(o) In the second of three phases, players can use the C-bills they amassed to buy battle armor which provide more firepower and armor and speed than any human can hope to match. Players can still fight without it, but at an enormous disadvantage. (Switching out of a damaged battle armor by buying a new one is possible)

(o) In the last phase, players can use C-bills to buy mechs. (Pilots that eject can buy another mech if funds are available). Last man standing.

(o) Destructible buildings

(o) The map shrinks as time progresses, players that spend too much time outside forfeit.

(o) In MW fashion, different battle armor chassis are available and can be customized, and a player should prepare different price points in consideration of the C-bills available during an Escalation match. Same for mechs.

(o) In MW fashion, rather than having all players be the same size, you can customize your pilot's strength (more increases body size, hitbox, hp, and slows speed accel/decel), agility (increases speed, accel, decel), and intelligence (increases initial and maximum skill points)

(o) Yes, a skill tree, and you can train multiple pilots.

(o) In a monthly competitive tournament, for 3 hours, you pick 3 of your pilots to create a team and play 10 matches. However, unlike regular matches where deaths do not happen, in Competitive Escalation (Grand Prix), if you are downed by a battle armor while in a pilot suit, or downed by a mech as an elemental, or you are head shot in a mech, your pilot dies permanently. Teams with at least one surviving pilot earns ranking and prizes.

[Anjian]

The way SMC works is that:

a) Mechs are available in a preset pallet. You can choose any mech in that pallet, but the same mech will be used throughout the match and other mechs will not be available. So choose wisely.

b.) A cool down begins when the match starts and at the end of the cool down, the mech becomes available.

c.) If you lose a mech, you, which is the same as your pilot, is ejected from the mech and you can controllably glide a safe distance away. You can respawn your mech after a cool down time.

d.) When the match is down to the last few players, Ace Time will be called, and your last and current mech option is no longer respawnable.

e.) Pilots are non respawnable. If your avatar dies, you are out of the match.

f.) You can collect various items that will increase the performance of your mecha and yourself.

g.) You can pick up various items, like a small mech walker with machine guns.

h.) A pilot or human can go up against a mech, which is a severe disadvantage to the human, but the human still has a chance of winning the engagement if the human manage to pick up the right weapons.

i.) There is a mode that lets you play as a small team of three, versus other teams of three in battle royale.

j.) A Team Deathmatch mode is also offered.

k.) Items you pick up can heal your pilot avatar and the mech.

The game is brilliant but failed to pick up in popularity, and partly because Netease itself has so many themed battle royales they compete with each other, along with the major giants in the genre. The battle royale segment isn't growing frankly, and its all cannibalizing each other and from other FPS games.

In the meantime, War Robots remains one of the highest grossing mobile shooters while avoiding the FPS mob, and the only thing close to a battle royale is a free for all mode, which lasts until you run out of mechs from your preset pallet or the game time runs out and the highest pointer gets the score.

War Robots has two essential game modes: Domination and Beacon Rush.

The objective of the game is to control as many of the five control points called Beacons in the map. Two Beacons are in each side of the map, and a fifth beacon is in the center of the map for people to vie for. Whoever controls the most beacons the longest gets the most points and will win the game when the timer rings at the end of ten minutes, or if the one side suffers too much losses and attritions (called "bot out" in the game) out of the game.

Each player has a hanger of chosen mechs. One mech dies, you replace with another until your hanger runs out. You have a a maximum of up to five mechs for your preset, and recently they made it a six with the remaining slot for a Titan. Each match lasts only ten minutes with a team of six vs. six.

The difference of Domination and Beacon Rush is that the respawn point is fixed in Domination, so when you respawn, you are back at the end of the map. In Beacon Rush, you can respawn at any of the Beacons that have been captured by your team, so capturing Beacons also give you a positional advantage over the other team. Beacon Rush is a genuine meat grinder as you can often see dozens of dead mechs around a beacon.

There is also a Team Deathmatch mode in variety and the aforementioned Free for All, and while these modes have their followers, its not as popular as the other two. Between Domination and Beacon Rush, Beacon Rush appears to the more popular of the two.

The game allows for a complete premade of 6 vs. a pug of 6. While PUGs can often get routed, the matchmaker can often match the premade against a team of very good players assembled in random, and if you got buddies in your premade is not up to the general skill mean of the match, the premade can get routed.

For the most part, my experience in the game is that it often leads to tight, furious matches. The War Robots imitators to the market follow the same basic game mode formulas with variations on the respawn drop points. Robot Warfare, you can choose to drop in any point of the map.

This game was very good until it got too greedy with P2W, and the robots becomes increasingly fantastical and alien in abilities. The game started as having robots inspired from real life modern weaponry, into something that feels more inspired from Star Wars. But the developers do take the money they earn and plow it back into the game, so there are more maps, more mechs, and even a massive graphics overhaul, even if this means bad news to people with older devices.

You can compare your ideas to the ones in games that are in already in the market.

Edited by Anjian, 27 November 2020 - 07:59 PM.

[Anjian]

Anomalocaris, on 16 November 2020 - 10:30 PM, said:

Lol. A bit disingenuous no? People like to play solo on large teams. Chaos of battle and all that. Go look at WoT, WoW, War Thunder, etc. The latter has respawns but isn’t as popular as the first two. 1v1 isn’t particularly popular in any MMO, or else we’d all be playing mortal combat....

War Thunder started as an aircraft game and still is. Tanks and ships are later additions, and which WoT and WoWS enjoyed first mover advantage. WoT and WoWs are both more arcadey than the War Thunder equivalents, which are more sim and more hard core with corresponding complexity and difficulty.


If you wish to compare War Thunder to a directly equivalent Wargaming product, that would be World of Warplanes, which War Thunder completely obliterates.


But its true that people, like me, like to play solo in medium to large teams, whether its PvP or PvE.

Edited by Anjian, 27 November 2020 - 08:34 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

This proposal sounds pretty good.
Repair/Rearm, and Economy is what MWO has lacked.

I personally don't care for the idea of hiring pilots, I like being the pilot... but I guess if you're dropping multiple mechs, it makes sense you'd have multiple pilots. I guess I can be a company commander.

but reading these comments..
You people deserve what you get.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 11 May 2021 - 09:06 PM.