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The Game Has Reached Unplayable Status As A Solo


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#1 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 02:19 AM

Updated OP:

i used to really like playing this game solo. Over time, the solo experience has degraded both in terms of fun as well as viability for a reasonable gameplay experience. It is both my experience and that of many others that in the game's current state, group play is the only way to avoid incredible amounts of frustration. While the solo experience can still occasionally be okay for some, these times are becoming more and more limited to higher population times, and less frequent. A recent test run for me of the solo experience over a 13 game sample produced almost universally short and stompy losses against a variety of high-skill premades that the matchmaker could not effectively balance. I would characterize these as hopeless and unplayable games, and it was a miserable experience as a solo player. It was bad to the point where I considered why I was even playing a game in which the experience was so inescapably poor when other games exist.

The flaws of PSR post-reset and the current ills of the matchmaker have been well documented on these forums. It is commonplace within the community to assume the matchmaker is hopelessly incapable of assembling competitive games, and often the nature of the teams that we see in our lobbies reinforces this belief. It is common to see lobbies where the 4-6 best players are all on one side, and these games inevitably play out as someone who knows this community would expect, resulting in quick, extremely one-sided, stompy, unenjoyable games. As the solo experience has degraded, more and more players are seeking the safety of group play in an attempt to regain some amount of control over the gameplay experience. It does not take much imagination to foresee that solo players will eventually either refuse to drop solo, or move on to other games further reducing the player population, both of which will serve to make matchmaking more difficult and further reduce match quality.

If we are stuck with 4 man premades, the current matchmaker, and the current PSR calculation, I believe the game has reached a point where it desperately needs secondary lobby balancing. I believe a solution like this could be implemented without a huge amount of rework to existing systems, although as a non-developer I cannot guarantee this. Since I, and many others, would like to regain the ability to drop solo in MWO without guaranteeing myself a horrible gameplay experience, I would appreciate it if this type of system could be considered in the immediate future.

System and situation description copied in from a later post: the mm is tasked with going out to the queue and sourcing 24 players it feels like "match" for a game lobby. it divides those players among the two teams as best it can via Tier and PSR, leaving premade groups intact. that is what we have today, and it is not good.

the concept of secondary lobby balancing is to have another round of logic that takes the 24 players already chosen, ignores any premade grouping that players have requested, and sees if the MM solution still makes sense. i.e. If team 1 has 4 99% players that were selected in a premade, and the highest rated player on team 2 is at 95%, then the secondary lobby balancer would "choose" to break up the team 1 premade, and assign two of the 99% players to team 2. similarly, if team 2 has a premade of 4 75% players and the lowest rated player on team 1 is at 80%, then the secondary lobby balancer would "choose" to break up the team 2 premade and assign two of them to team 1.

so for such an example, instead of launching a game where the 4 best players are guaranteed to be on team 1, now we have a game where at least two of them are guaranteed to be on each side.

Edited by morosis, 25 December 2020 - 05:25 AM.


#2 Kroete

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 02:39 AM

Play some other game(s) until it changes.
Its the only way to change it.

After the merge i tryed some matches and then i played
some games of civ and homm over the month with my girl,
put lots of hours in kenshi,
startet a new colony in oxygen not included,
had the time to look at stellaris,
failed on Workers&Recourses Cosmonaut difficulty but will, for sure, try it again,
and i still have some other old (and a few new) games i want to try or replay
and, after some more patches, i ll try cyberpunk.

I like stompy robots,
but beeing farmed is no fun as well as stomping and without much contribution even less,
pity for the stompy robots.

Edited by Kroete, 16 December 2020 - 02:53 AM.


#3 Dopebear

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 02:48 AM

>As a solo
Then become a "as a souper".
GG close.

#4 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 02:53 AM

View PostDopebear, on 16 December 2020 - 02:48 AM, said:

>As a solo
Then become a "as a souper".
GG close.


that isnt the point. the point is that the solo experience has been completely destroyed. once all the solo players leave the soup, then the soup is just the old group queue that died, right?

#5 crazytimes

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 03:12 AM

I think I was in some of those games and I was a bit salty too after about fourth roflstomp they delivered. I stopped playing for an hour and they went away.

Nothing against the players themselves, it's just crappy that one 4 manner decides the outcome +90% of the time. What really annoyed me though was even if I died early and went straight back into queue- it was 4 or 5 minutes waiting for them to finish that match so I could drop with them again. Yay.

#6 AnAnachronismAlive

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 03:15 AM

View Postmorosis, on 16 December 2020 - 02:19 AM, said:

i liked playing this game solo. it is literal masochism now. i get dropped into unwinnable, stompy games against top tier, experienced 4 mans and have no ability to actually play or enjoy the game.

tonight i dropped against 3 separate 4 mans of 98-99+% players, multiple times, never had even the slightest hope of winning, and never had a single such player on my side. multiple times, i got put into games where my team literally lost before the match was even played just due to soup queue, lack of secondary lobby balancing, and premade groups of either excellent or low tier players dictating the outcome totally and completely.

there were a couple of those, where i bet if i looked it up - the 6 best pilots in the game were all on the same side. how is that even remotely acceptable for your player population in a pvp game where match quality plays a huge role in the enjoyment we can derive from the game?

if the goal of soup queue was to make solo dropping feel horrible and hopeless, then mission accomplished.

it is an utter disaster.


While I get some games can be a pain in the buttock in terms of skill-spread / un-even premade distribution between teams, we gotta understand that this is a result of the generally low(er) playerbase that is left for now.

Unsure what you're primary times of play are, but if you feel your general experience being an utter disaster, I'd advice to hop onto some of the discord servers (MWOComp, Ashcord etc.) and ask for advice or for people to group up with. Most of the players (even those in the 98%+ range) are very helpful in terms of supporting.

#7 General Solo

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 03:41 AM

I been easing the pain with a void shielded ER PPC Commando

They can't hit what hit reg won't allow
and just try outtrading a ER PPC commando at 800 metres, its pretty hard

Also I been closely watching my meatshield to over extend ratio

When you can't win having them chase you and generally being a pita is really satisfying

Double arty strikes help too

I'm coping well

But will MWO, the game cope so well

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 16 December 2020 - 03:44 AM.


#8 DeadLocK696

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 03:52 AM

Well I have different experience, I start playing for 2 months and only play solo. At first it was quite I stomp until you get the basic and a proper mech, since then I've been climbing rapidly now I'm in tier 2, most of the time scoring top 5 in my team.

I think it's by chance that you'll get good teammate or not, you cannot have good game all the time sometime you just get rekt.
My advice, try getting a proper meta mech and play along with the team, you might get you a better experience.

#9 AnAnachronismAlive

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 05:02 AM

View PostNo1Curr, on 16 December 2020 - 03:28 AM, said:

Hey you know what's helping with that

NOT ******* THIS


Might be. But tellin otherwise in terms of the actual population despite the facts? Not of any use regarding his experience of play if ye ask me.

All I wanted to point out is: if solo-games (start to) lack fun for you in a teambased pvp-shooter, ye better start talking to people and join groups! There are a tons of folks GLADLY and 24/7 willing to help new players or players seeking advice and therewith improving the game situation overall. As in life, it is not only 'bout what degree of fun the game can create for you via itself (even though this is a major part for sure).

And in terms of solving the lowpop-issue: see (and maybe participate in) the command chair forum. A lot of people trying what they can (side of the community that is), to think about proposals for the better.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 16 December 2020 - 05:05 AM.


#10 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 05:17 AM

View PostAnAnachronismAlive, on 16 December 2020 - 03:15 AM, said:

While I get some games can be a pain in the buttock in terms of skill-spread / un-even premade distribution between teams, we gotta understand that this is a result of the generally low(er) playerbase that is left for now.

Unsure what you're primary times of play are, but if you feel your general experience being an utter disaster, I'd advice to hop onto some of the discord servers (MWOComp, Ashcord etc.) and ask for advice or for people to group up with. Most of the players (even those in the 98%+ range) are very helpful in terms of supporting.


i get this perspective, and yes, i do play with people from time to time, even some really great players in the community. this community, from top to bottom, is definitely filled with good people that are genuinely willing and eager to help, group, and/or be of service. in my experience, the great players left in the game are the biggest asset PGI and the game has left. this is not a conversation about great players and their role in the game.

the point of my post is that systems that have been introduced (psr reset, soup queue namely) have not only failed, but failed in such a way as to make solo dropping a generally horrible experience. none of the systems have been built in such a way as to even try to account for the quality of the premade group present compared to the general skill level of the remaining players in game. the tier system/psr system apparently cant handle that at all, and we dont have a secondary lobby balancing function in the matchmaker, so these kinds of horrid game experiences are becoming more and more common for solo players as literally everyone hates the solo experience and retreats to the safety of premade groups.

it doesn't take Stephen Hawking to see that the end game here is that literally nobody will be willing to suffer the horrors of solo dropping, the matchmaker will be tasked with dropping a bunch of premades against each other that it has no ability to match for quality, size, and tonnage, and we end up in a place where quickplay spirals down into oblivion.

again, i want to reiterate - this is not about players. this is about the systems that are supposed to balance and matchmake games, and provide an experience that players can enjoy. those systems are abjectly failing.

#11 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 05:40 AM

View PostAnAnachronismAlive, on 16 December 2020 - 05:02 AM, said:


Might be. But tellin otherwise in terms of the actual population despite the facts? Not of any use regarding his experience of play if ye ask me.

All I wanted to point out is: if solo-games (start to) lack fun for you in a teambased pvp-shooter, ye better start talking to people and join groups! There are a tons of folks GLADLY and 24/7 willing to help new players or players seeking advice and therewith improving the game situation overall. As in life, it is not only 'bout what degree of fun the game can create for you via itself (even though this is a major part for sure).

And in terms of solving the lowpop-issue: see (and maybe participate in) the command chair forum. A lot of people trying what they can (side of the community that is), to think about proposals for the better.


i appreciate the measured response and advice but i think what youre saying is kind of dodging the problem entirely. the fact that as a player who much prefers to play solo, if i want to have anything but a terrible experience, i MUST play in a group, is the issue.

how many consecutive 3-12 stomps would you endure in one night before you threw your hands up and just quit playing? im not voicing my frustration here to say that i expect the matchmaker to give me a winning team for every losing team, or any preconceived idea of a fair outcome, but i DO expect the matchmaker to give me some teams with a CHANCE of winning. that was not my experience at all tonight. a successful game tonight was a game where i managed to do 650 damage before the 3-12 stomp was over, and an unsuccessful game tonight was a game where one of the uber talented guys who was on the enemy team either headshot or backstabbed me before i had a chance to do anything, and then i could watch the 3-12 stomp play out from someone elses cockpit.

this is not a recent development. this has been the solo experience for me, at least, since about October. I just haven't said anything about it here. but tonight was another level. tonight it went from frustrating to intolerable.

#12 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 05:44 AM

View Postcrazytimes, on 16 December 2020 - 03:12 AM, said:

I think I was in some of those games and I was a bit salty too after about fourth roflstomp they delivered. I stopped playing for an hour and they went away.

Nothing against the players themselves, it's just crappy that one 4 manner decides the outcome +90% of the time. What really annoyed me though was even if I died early and went straight back into queue- it was 4 or 5 minutes waiting for them to finish that match so I could drop with them again. Yay.


and if you dropped again and didnt get the 4 man that wrecked you the first time, you got matched up against the 4 man that was waiting for the other 4 man to drop so they wouldnt have to play them either.

groups dodging groups means that as a solo at a lower population time, you get the shaft no matter what.

#13 Knight Captain Morgan

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 06:48 AM

View Postmorosis, on 16 December 2020 - 02:53 AM, said:


that isnt the point. the point is that the solo experience has been completely destroyed. once all the solo players leave the soup, then the soup is just the old group queue that died, right?

Precisely, once the seals go extinct then so do the clubbers. They will quickly grow tired of trying to queue dodge each other and the new group queue will suffer the same fate as the old one.

#14 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 07:42 AM

View PostKnight Captain Morgan, on 16 December 2020 - 06:48 AM, said:

Precisely, once the seals go extinct then so do the clubbers. They will quickly grow tired of trying to queue dodge each other and the new group queue will suffer the same fate as the old one.


i appreciate the spirit of what you are trying to say, but bristle a little at the seal clubber assumption. while there are probably some players that group for that reason, i would much more likely assume that the high level players group for the same reasons that everyone else does, because dropping solo is often miserable in the current state of the game. hence why i am putting this on PGI's plate instead of our own plate as a community: the game systems, in their current state, appear incapable of handling especially good (or new, unskilled, or low tier) players dropping with their friends without creating a miserable experience for a lot of others. the current systems that exist are not providing the control needed for the overall player experience, they are outright sacrificing the experience of some (namely solo players) for the benefit of others (namely group players) and that type of system structure will inevitably end up sacrificing the population of the former group, which used to be most of the player base.

i am just one player with one opinion, but i am almost entirely fed up with the current solo soup implementation. i think we can clearly demonstrate how bad it is for most people, most of the time. i can show an almost endless series of twitch and youtube clips of longtime veterans of this player base literally quitting the game out of frustration with the solo soup experience. i think it needed to be brought to the attention of the community at large for comment, and for visibility, and hence this post.

#15 AnAnachronismAlive

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 08:23 AM

Decent arguments ye bring up here. Even though I tend to drop solo most of the time myself and can't generally share the feeling of being the sacrifical lamb for grouped opposition and/or on the loosing side without the ability to impact the outcome of a game automatically, I gotta admit that there can be evenings (EU-Time) where you are dropped against a decent 4men taking power positions and mopping oneself up several times. While I personally like such games, since they are kinda educational for me (while the general 0815-QP-game is more some habitualized quarterhour), I bluntly admit that I tend to take a break after having my buttock kicked more than four times in a row.

Be that as it may: the critique point of queue-merge or MM being unable to create something like more or less "even chances" is undoubtedly an issue. What I miss to see is, how this problem can be adressed in any other way than by bringing a critical mass of new/old players back into the game allowing to seperate solo- and group-queue again

OR

by another re-haul of the match maker that adresses weight n skill differences (mebbe or mebbe not) at the cost of longer wait times.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 16 December 2020 - 08:46 AM.


#16 AnAnachronismAlive

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 08:44 AM

Seeing you in the 90%-percentile after some months of play only makes me wonder how your experience can be as bad as you describe it anyhow - some comp-premades on the other team or not. Does not devaluate your point for the biggest part of other players though, gonna admit that at least.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 16 December 2020 - 08:45 AM.


#17 FindersWeepers

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 09:10 AM

Let's say your bank leaves a security exploit open, and a thief swoops in, finds the exploit, and takes all your cash.

Who's to blame? The thief? The bank?

I feel the solo+group queue merge is similar

#18 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 09:37 AM

View PostAnAnachronismAlive, on 16 December 2020 - 08:44 AM, said:

Seeing you in the 90%-percentile after some months of play only makes me wonder how your experience can be as bad as you describe it anyhow - some comp-premades on the other team or not. Does not devaluate your point for the biggest part of other players though, gonna admit that at least.


this is an account i started with the sole purpose of having a fresh account for the soup integration earlier this year, so all the stats for it include confounding factors like group play and PSR reset. i, like many others, have had a few different accounts over the years as I have come and gone from the game. if i am a decent player, which i would argue i am not, it is only because i work at the game skills and practice a lot. that is neither here nor there though, as whether i am a good player or not has nothing to do with whether the solo experience is bad.

i know what i am doing in the game, i have a long history with competitive FPS, and I am completely unable to influence the outcome of a match as a solo player in the soup queue. i did the math on my test run dropping solo yesterday: i averaged 650 damage across 7 mechs and variants, and played exactly 13 games. i won 2 and lost 11, and almost none of the losses were even remotely competitive. the games were incredibly uncompetitive and awful and short.

at present this game has a matchmaker that cannot matchmake.

#19 morosis

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 09:50 AM

View PostFindersWeepers, on 16 December 2020 - 09:10 AM, said:

Let's say your bank leaves a security exploit open, and a thief swoops in, finds the exploit, and takes all your cash.

Who's to blame? The thief? The bank?

I feel the solo+group queue merge is similar


hey man, appreciate you throwing your perspective in. im hoping to get a broad array of thoughts and opinions so that if others are as unhappy with the soup queue as I have been for a couple of months now, solutioning it can be properly prioritized.

i hear where you're coming from that its a shared responsibility, but i think the better analogy for this situation is that the bank made a decision to open a security exploit of its own accord, made a decision to announce it to a bunch of thieves, and completely failed to consider its obligations to the people whose money the thieves ended up taking.

the bulk of players have always been solo players. this experience hurts solo players. unless their goal is to drive off their customer base, then this needs attention.

#20 K O Z A K

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 09:53 AM

View Postmorosis, on 16 December 2020 - 02:19 AM, said:

if the goal of soup queue and the subsequent psr reset was to make solo dropping feel horrible and hopeless, then mission accomplished. it is an utter disaster.


what do you mean? you as a solo player seem to feel horrible and hopeless, seems like it was a great success rather than an utter disaster





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