32 replies to this topic

[Eegxeta]

Everyone says that Clan tech is so great, Clan tech is better then IS. Actually it is not much better at all. If you sit down and think about it Clan tech is designed for battles that take place where having superior range and damage is important like in open field combat. So Clan tech is better used in areas with little or no obstacles like fields and open terrain. IS tech is designed for battles that take place where having superior fire rate and low heat is important like in close quarters combat. So IS tech is better used in areas with many obstacles like in a city where the advantage of long range weaponry can be disregarded by a simple alley side step. So toe to toe an IS mech would win but in a range fight Clan has full superiority.

I noticed this as I specialize in close quarters combat with mechs. So this is from someone who has first hand experience on this. I also noticed that the key to low heat design is don't use Clan tech.

This is why we can have players be Clan because it all comes down to range. The Clans were planing on coming back and most likely didn't build large sprawling cities so they wouldn't have ever trained in that environment. The Inner Sphere is full of populated worlds with cities and most fighting was done to get cities because they give tactical advantage. That is a good explanation on the reason for the differences.

[Volume]

In MW2:Mercs, and MW3 I don't really remember IS weapons being remotely better in any way shape or form.

In MW4:Mercs, I do remember them using/costing more heat, (ie: Clan ER Large Laser creates more heat than the IS ER Large Laser, and obviously significantly more than the IS Large Laser (non-ER) ) and the IS having some exclusive weaponry.

The following tables are from the TT and I do not see any specific disadvantage that using clan tech over IS would do, aside from just mounting non-ER versions of weaponry since they might not matter in urban combat.

http://www.sarna.net...#Energy_Weapons
http://www.sarna.net...nergy_Weapons_2

In MW2, MW2 Mercs, and MW3, clan-tech was vastly superior even factoring in heat costs simply due to clan double heat sinks only taking two criticals instead of 3. That's a pretty big difference and I don't see how an advantage like that would be compensated for in MWO:Mercs. And if this is 3049 or whatever, or 3050, here are some things the Clans have that the IS doesn't have (Excluding lostech and SL stuff):

Ultra autocannons
LB-X autocannons
Streak SRMs
Swarm LRMs
Thunder LRMs

I'm probably wrong and forgetting a bunch of stuff, but just having double heatsinks and omnimech chassis is pretty ridic.

I would love and prefer to be able to play and use clan mechs but just some ideas off the top of my head would all need to be factored in.

Obviously if they change/tweak numbers or give clan tech more of a "Tradeoff" rather than "Direct upgrade" feel, that would be ideal. I was born and raised on MW2, so I'm actually much preferring the idea of playing a clanner than joining a house. That said, MW2:Mercs got me pretty excited about some of the IS houses, but I still prefer the clan stuff just from where I started and the nostalgia involved and just overall preference of the design. I mean, imagine if you started with clan equipment and mechs and basically had to play other games where "Okay I have shittier stuff until I get the REAL DEAL" and that's how it seemed like to me when I was younger and going through these. Obviously I have a new appreciation for IS mechs but mentally, on some level, clan gear will still be "top tier" equipment.

[wolf74]

Raises an eyebrow at Eegxeta, If I may ask on what do you get this info from?

Mechwarrior Video games have ALWAYS played down the clan weapons.

Now if we look (Opens the Great Big Book of Battletech) in the CBT book for Damage / Range / Weight Size. Than look in the Solaris VII book for an Idea of fire Rate. You will find the Clan gear does more damage per hit most of the time at longer ranges, for Less weight & smaller size. Plus can fire Faster too about the only thing that the same is heat per shot.

Case & point the ER Large Laser
Weight / Size / Damage / heat / Range / Recharge Window
5 / 2 / 8 / 12 / 19 hex (570m) or 25.33hex (760m)ext / 7.51sec – 10sec IS ER-Large Laser
4 / 1 / 10 / 12 / 25 hex (750m) or 33.33 hex (1000m) / 5sec – 7.50sec Clan ER-Large Laser

(Carefully closes the Great Big Book of Battletech)

Edited by wolf74, 21 November 2011 - 06:09 PM.

[minobu tetsuharu]

wolf74, on 21 November 2011 - 05:50 PM, said:

Now if we look (Opens the Great Big Book of Battletech) in the CBT book for Damage / Range / Weight Size. Than look in the Solaris VII book for an Idea of fire Rate. You will find the Clan gear does more damage per hit most of the time at longer ranges, for Less weight & smaller size. Plus can fire Faster too about the only thing that the same is heat per shot.

To be fair he is saying the Clans advantage only comes from range. Negate it and the Clans would be weak. But as you pointed out in the rest of your post he is wrong because clan weapons weigh less and are more heat efficient for the damage they dish out.

The best alpha damage you can produce with an IS assault mech is like around 80 damage for weapons that can shoot continuously. With Clan tech you can go exceed 120 alpha damage in the same chassis. The only IS weapon that comes close are one shot rocket launchers. Hardly competitive.

[EDMW CSN]

The Clans have a 6 ton weapon that will shear 1 ton of armor no matter where it hits at long range.
It is called the ERPPC and no ammo cost.

Fit it on any Clan light mech and you pretty much capable of even running down some IS mediums since some IS mechs have armor made of toilet paper.

The IS equal in 3050 is the 15 ton Gauss rifle that has only 8 shots per tons. Not only that, the Gauss rifle can EXPLODE when it gets hit.


Also Clan LRMs are outright superior. They have no minimum range and weigh half as much. So getting close to Clan LRM boats like the Vulture or Mad Cat (well u can drop something for another 2 tons of LRM ammo) is virtually suicide.

[Eegxeta]

This is from personal experience in MW4. I'm good at fighting really close to the opponent I have ran into the opponent a few times and in this setting I needed speed and using clan weapons (mostly the beams and missiles) was just not practical because I ended up using too much weight on heat sinks. I'm not saying the Clan tech does less damage at a short range I'm saying that Clan tech is less efficient at a short range where you can't spend a whole lot of weight on heat sinks. I have never found the Clan tech to be more heat efficient every time I used clan tech an fought at short range I was running in the red zone and couldn't fire my weapons even when they were ready because I would have overheated. For all you TT players I have never played TT. If nobody agrees with me then MWO this is how you can balance the Clan tech with IS tech so people can play Clan and the people screaming about balance will be satisfied.

[EDMW]CSN, on 24 November 2011 - 01:30 AM, said:

The Clans have a 6 ton weapon that will shear 1 ton of armor no matter where it hits at long range.
It is called the ERPPC and no ammo cost.

In MW4 I have found that the damage is the only advantage of the Clan ERPPC but when you add the massive heat the weapon generates that is its downside add it is a downside I could never afford to have.

[EDMW]CSN, on 24 November 2011 - 01:30 AM, said:

Also Clan LRMs are outright superior. They have no minimum range and weigh half as much. So getting close to Clan LRM boats like the Vulture or Mad Cat (well u can drop something for another 2 tons of LRM ammo) is virtually suicide.

True but who would use LRM at short range the SRM deals more damage at less weight and you don't need to spend time locking on.

I used IS tech to make my short range brawler mech it only ever needed about 4 weapons, it had plenty of armor, it was also fast it had a max speed of about 100 mph and most important I was extremely heat efficient and used no heat sinks what so ever. It was powerful I was destroying mech left and right. Makes me wish MW4 still worked on my computer. It stinks how in just stopped working after one update.

[Malavai Fletcher]

The IS have RAC's and X-Pulse lasers,combined on a mech and staggered into 4 groups(avatar did this very well,2RAC 2's,2large X-pulse lasers,a RAC and pulse laser in each group,another group for both RAC's another group for both pulse lasers) you allways had a weapon to fire that would knock the other pilot about.Tiny alpha strike damage but probably the most disruptive mech i played with,the clans had nothing to compare with this.

[DCleric]

I made the suggestion in another thread, balance it by numbers if it's that big of a concern. 5 mech star against 2 4 mech lances and so on. You don't always have to take the advantage but you have the option.

[Eegxeta]

balancing by numbers can create a problem. From what I have seen the Clan tech is not superior to the point of being able to use too fewer mechs. You can maybe get away with a 5 is vs 4 Clan but make any bigger difference and you'd get problems.

[verybad]

I think balancing by economics should work. Make it harder to advance as a clan in terms of upgrading equipment from base Clan levels, and skills (again from base clan levels). This prevents IS players from being left in the dust. Clan tech IS better, and base clan players are better at actual fighting. However they might have different skills available. Indirect firing and artillery strikes might be harder to get as clans don't aprove of such tactics. Defending on how skills are developed, defensive and command skills might be less effective, offensive and maneuverability one's more effective.

I would like for clan players to be different, not just higher tech. Different doesn't have to be better either.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Whatca smoking? Clan tech is better in virtually every way that matters. Its not like there is a big trade off you're paying to get range. Its simply outright better.

[verybad]

Did you read my post? It certainly doesn't appear so.

Let me simplify it.

I said Clan Tech IS better.

I also said they have a different view on what are valuable skill sets for warriors. If skills are as important as I think they will be, this can be used to make the Clans and the IS palyers seem different.

Just giving clans better weapons is a lazy method for making them different. Yes they're higher tech. They also have a poor economy compared to the IS, they don't like to use what they consider dishonorable methods (like indirect missile fire),

On the boardgame, clan players can be balanced with limitations in playstyle. Skills can also be used to make them different.

The difference between the clans and the is is not just in tech.

[Zyllos]

Thats why having a tonnage + BV attached to each match should fix this problem. The IS will either outweigh or outnumber the Clans in every match.

[Ghost]

I'm not, uh, actually seeing a suggestion here.

[Zyllos]

Well, as far as I am seeing it, the suggestion is that IS vs Clan can be implemented within MW:O through tonnage + BV. Of course, the OP thinks Clan's advantage of having longer range is negated by having urban environments, which is mostly true. But not every map is urban and every urban map will not be 100% urban and might contain open areas.

[IceSerpent]

Clan tech is certainly superior in canon, but that doesn't mean that it has to be that much better than IS in MW-O. It could be toned down to only be slightly better, but cost more. It could simply be made different - i.e. longer range + higher damage, but generate more heat, thus giving clan mechs better alpha strike and giving IS mechs better sustained rate of fire. It could be balanced by numbers (binary vs. company). It could be balanced by BV. It could be balanced by reload time. There's probably a dozen other ways to balance it too, the point is the huge gap between clan and IS tech in canon doesn't have to be equally huge here, they just need to be sufficiently different for both IS and clan tech to be useful in different situations.

[Ran Ito]

Have to disagree with the OP. Clan tech has always been better in every shape and form.

I understand the argument that the additional range from clan weapons does not benefit a CQB situation, and that the additional heat generated by clan energy weapons can be an additional detractor. However, a good number of clan weapons also did additional damage in comparison to their inner sphere counterparts. In addition the weapons themselves were lighter so if you factor in the bonus of clan heat sinks there's a fair chance of nulliying the heat argument altogether.

IS vs. Clan has never been balanced. But it was never meant to be. The Clans are Kerensky's returning conquerers.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

lol yeah they have stock omnimechs for CQB during the invasion, puh-leeeease.
Nova Prime
Stormcrow Prime
Executioner A,B,D
Gargoyle C,D

to name a few; that and if we throw in custom designed it gets even worse when
players actually make their own CQB clan designs.

[Icaza]

I think the system is going to need to be enhanced to add depth. There's not going to be just one "Medium Laser IS" There will probably be dozens or hundreds of different ones based on character. I would imagine that Clan tech would just start at a higher level, but be introduced after characters have progressed. So a new clanner would have better stuff than a new IS person, but an established IS person would smoke them. Plus they could do stuff like with WoW and have different item levels. Clan stuff would be relatively better at the same item level.

[Volume]

Icaza, on 21 December 2011 - 01:33 PM, said:

I think the system is going to need to be enhanced to add depth. There's not going to be just one "Medium Laser IS" There will probably be dozens or hundreds of different ones based on character. I would imagine that Clan tech would just start at a higher level, but be introduced after characters have progressed. So a new clanner would have better stuff than a new IS person, but an established IS person would smoke them. Plus they could do stuff like with WoW and have different item levels. Clan stuff would be relatively better at the same item level.

I am hoping they don't have ilvl lasers where my "stern medium laser of the monkey" has +4% recycle time, -10% heat buildup, +2 gunnery and piloting skill, and +17% damage" over anyone else's medium laser...