132 replies to this topic

[Heavy Money]

As far as game balance goes, MWO actually impresses me quite a bit. I'm very used to games where there's a wide variety of classes/roles, but there are clear winners that dominate everything else. Yes, MWO has certain metamechs, and certain meta builds per chassis, and it has a lot of mechs that are under used due to being left behind. But due to the nature of the game, even less optimal mechs can still contribute. And positioning and teamwork can trump more optimal mechs. It amazes me that we don't see a situation where people all play the same couple of mechs per size class, and I give MWO a lot of credit for managing that.

The exception seems to be the Vapor Eagle. It can pack the firepower of a heavy while still having most of the upsides of a medium in terms of agility, size, and mobility. It has multiple top rated builds across multiple variants. And while it has pros and cons, they synergize very well for the builds it excels at. Sure, its not as durable as a heavy and its tall for a medium. But when you're poptarting triple or even quad ERPPcs, the agility, size, and JJ advantages it has over heavies that can do the same are more valuable than a bit of armor in most cases.

The Vapor eagle seems to simply outclass other equivalent mediums. The Huntsmen is a solid if not exceptional mech, but its totally outclassed by the vapor eagle in the same roles of poptarting PPCs or ATMs. And even in less meta roles like dakka, the veagle runs more of it with more speed and durability. Part of the Huntsman's problem is being an omnimech that can't dump its engine as much, but other clan battlemechs and IS mechs aren't competing either.

The Hunchback is the medium that's supposed to run a ton of firepower, and it pays for it with terrible speed, mobility, hitboxes, etc. The Veagle does not.

The problem of course isn't any particular quirk or deliberate thing. Its just that the vapor eagle happens to fall in the sweet spot of being a 55 tonner with the advantages of clan weight and slot saving from their more efficient weapons, engines, and upgrades. I've seen people suggest stripping it of its JJ quirks, but that's not really the issue. It can fit a ton more firepower due to this and the ability to drop its engine a lot in favor of more firepower.

If it was forced to take a large engine (like omnimechs) it wouldn't really be an issue. Run a big enough engine to go 90kph+, and its no longer carrying a heavy mech's worth of firepower. It might then eclipse other mediums in ratio of firepower to speed, but that's less upsetting to overall balance than what its doing now. (Nobody really runs it like this at the moment, but it's not bad if you do compared to other mediums in similar roles.)

But it also feels odd to single it out. If it was too strong because it had some quirk or another, then it'd be easy to just say to remove that. But its harder to figure out how to penalize it. Forcing a minimum engine size would do, but it'd be the only battlemech in the game doing that. It could lose weapon hardpoints, but that doesn't really address the issue as most of the meta builds are running a few big weapons. It could have negative, penalty quirks, but again it'd be the only mech in the game to do that.

Should something be done about it? What could be done?

Edited by Heavy Money, 18 February 2021 - 02:14 PM.

[FupDup]

The mech does objectively stand above the majority of others, that much cannot be debated.

However, there's just not much we can nerf about it. The only quirks it has are some JJ quirks, which have no effect on its meta power level. The only other option is to nerf the agility, but even that probably won't do a whole lot because people already run the thing like a heavy anyways. You can't take away hardpoints because it needs all of them for its stock builds.

I think we may just need to just focus on improving bad robots, not necessarily up the VGL level but at least high enough that the waters get muddier and it doesn't stand quite as high above the rest of the roster.

Loadout-wise I think ATMs are due for some changes (namely, holy crap dat damage). VGL isn't the only mech that is good with them, but it does have the attributes to leverage them more effectively than other Clan mechs. There are plenty of other good loadouts like triple ERPPC but those aren't as obnoxious to fight against.

[Heavy Money]

I find the triple ERPPCs to be really annoying (but note that annoying doesn't necessarily mean dangerous), but that's because I think all poptarting is silly. Is Poptart even supposed to be a thing? Does that really exist in battletech lore or tabletop?

[FupDup]

Heavy Money, on 18 February 2021 - 02:28 PM, said:

I find the triple ERPPCs to be really annoying (but note that annoying doesn't necessarily mean dangerous), but that's because I think all poptarting is silly. Is Poptart even supposed to be a thing? Does that really exist in battletech lore or tabletop?

"Poptarting" can't really exist in TT as it does in real-time MW games because in a turn-based environment you have to sit there for a whole turn which leaves you vulnerable to return-fire. If we're talking about JJs and shooting in general, then it's assumed that you can shoot while jumping because of the fact that you get an accuracy penalty if you shoot in the same turn as you jump. There's also tons of artwork showing mechs shooting while jumping.

The HBS game actually kind of allows it to exist if you use the reserve function to hold back a light mech until the final phase of a turn. On that last phase, jump into view of the enemy, fire your shot, then at the beginning of the next turn jump back to safety. If you've got the master pilot skill then you can fire a second time before jumping back to safety.

For the purposes of MWO, I think it's okay and good for poptarting to exist on mechs on the lower end of the tonnage spectrum as a way to leverage their mobility advantage while avoiding return fire. It's high-end heavies and assaults where poptarting gets crazy because it lets them circumvent some of their drawbacks (and also they can pack a lot more firepower while doing it).

[VonBruinwald]

Not much you can do to nerf it. It's a Clan Battlemech with ideal hardpoints.

That said there is an easy way to real it in.

Quote

Built around one-on-one duels, the Vapor Eagle focuses a good deal on speed and maneuverability

Increase the minimum engine size to 275

It stops people piling on firepower while keeping it true to lore.

[Flak Kannon]

Let the less skilled players have a way to equal the playing field.

I have no issue with them, and often taunt them after I kill them.



Enjoi

[Heavy Money]

FupDup, on 18 February 2021 - 02:35 PM, said:

For the purposes of MWO, I think it's okay and good for poptarting to exist on mechs on the lower end of the tonnage spectrum as a way to leverage their mobility advantage while avoiding return fire. It's high-end heavies and assaults where poptarting gets crazy because it lets them circumvent some of their drawbacks (and also they can pack a lot more firepower while doing it).

Yeah, poptarting shadowscats, huntsmen, and blackjacks aren't an issue because they've only got 2 ppcs. Even the triple PPC poptarting summoner isn't really a problem because of its other issues.

Flak Kannon, on 18 February 2021 - 03:04 PM, said:

Let the less skilled players have a way to equal the playing field.

I have no issue with them, and often taunt them after I kill them.

Limit them to lower tier players and you'll have a point

[RickySpanish]

Aim left torso boom GG.

[Heavy Money]

RickySpanish, on 18 February 2021 - 04:08 PM, said:

Aim left torso boom GG.

This is true of plenty of mechs that are not as optimal as the Vapor Eagle.

[RickySpanish]

Heavy Money, on 18 February 2021 - 04:16 PM, said:

This is true of plenty of mechs that are not as optimal as the Vapor Eagle.

It sure is! The Vapor Eagle is pretty good, but in order to carry proper gunboat loadouts it starts to sacrifice speed a fair bit. It's also a chunky monkey. It's an excellent 'Mech but I don't think it needs a nerf, there are other 'Mechs that need to be wacked with that hammer first.

[FupDup]

RickySpanish, on 18 February 2021 - 04:30 PM, said:

...there are other 'Mechs that need to be wacked with that hammer first.

Out of curiosity, which mechs do you think are stronger than the Veagle? Cuz that's a pretty high bar to beat. IV4?

Edited by FupDup, 18 February 2021 - 04:34 PM.

[RickySpanish]

FupDup, on 18 February 2021 - 04:33 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, which mechs do you think are stronger than the Veagle? Cuz that's a pretty high bar to beat. IV4?

SSSHHHhh!!

Vulcan needs a slap, IMO, if for nothing else than Ladywolfe might try something new.

Edited by RickySpanish, 18 February 2021 - 04:42 PM.

[Heavy Money]

RickySpanish, on 18 February 2021 - 04:30 PM, said:

It sure is! The Vapor Eagle is pretty good, but in order to carry proper gunboat loadouts it starts to sacrifice speed a fair bit. It's also a chunky monkey. It's an excellent 'Mech but I don't think it needs a nerf, there are other 'Mechs that need to be wacked with that hammer first.

Lots of heavy mechs sacrifice even more speed for less firepower while having worse mobility and hitboxes. Compare the Veagle to stuff like the Rifleman or Jagermech and the veagle is carrying more firepower, goes 10kph faster, and is much smaller and more agile. Less armor of course, but its size to armor to mobility ratio often means its harder to kill.

I'm not saying there aren't other good mechs, but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else that is this out of proportion to what its supposed to be.

[FupDup]

RickySpanish, on 18 February 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

Vulcan needs a slap, IMO, if for nothing else than Ladywolfe might try something new.

The Bloodlust and 5T are good, but at least on-paper the other variants look kinda middling to me (I haven't used any so I can't speak from experience).

Edited by FupDup, 18 February 2021 - 04:47 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Lockheed_, on 18 February 2021 - 05:49 PM, said:

In general instead of downgrading a good mech, upgrading the ****** mechs is the way to go. People love the VGL because it's fun to play. There are just too many mechs in MWO that just don't feel good to play.

You buff under-performers and you nerf over-perfromers.

What you're proposing is we buff the BLanner until it's on the same level as the Veagle. They need to meet in the middle.

[John Bronco]

I don't think the veagle would be a problem if ATMs were a bit more reeled in. The other builds have heavy firepower but they aren't particularly difficult to kill. If you push a PPC veagle it has crap dps so it's game over, or just blow off a side torso and destroy it's heat efficiency.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 18 February 2021 - 05:58 PM, said:

You buff under-performers and you nerf over-perfromers.

What you're proposing is we buff the BLanner until it's on the same level as the Veagle. They need to meet in the middle.

For discussion sake, how would you nerf the Veagle?

I totally get the principle of trying to avoid uber power creep, but as discussed earlier in the thread there aren't a whole lot of options here.

Side note: If I got to make an MW game of my own I'd make sure that the first mechs added were the absolute cheesiest most OP monsters available in the BT universe so that the power bar would be nearly impossible to creep upwards unless deliberately. There would also be blackjack. And hookers...

Edited by FupDup, 18 February 2021 - 06:55 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 18 February 2021 - 06:48 PM, said:

For discussion sake, how would you nerf the Veagle?

I totally get the principle of trying to avoid uber power creep, but as discussed earlier in the thread there aren't a whole lot of options here.

VonBruinwald, on 18 February 2021 - 02:47 PM, said:

Increase the minimum engine size to 275

It stops people piling on firepower while keeping it true to lore.

[John Bronco]

That does little to change the effectiveness of the ATM build, and nothing at all to the PPC builds, which based on this thread are the builds people think are problematic.

And raising it further invalidates a number of other builds like dakka, gauss, brawl.

[Heavy Money]

It would address ATMs as those tend to run an XL255, but you're correct it wouldn't help with the triple PPCs. Make the minimum 300.

Lockheed_, on 18 February 2021 - 05:49 PM, said:

^This pretty much nails it. There's too much garbage around. Also introducing more mechs that are in that tonnage sweet spot and where you can up- or downgrade the engine would level the playing field really fast.
In general instead of downgrading a good mech, upgrading the ****** mechs is the way to go. People love the VGL because it's fun to play. There are just too many mechs in MWO that just don't feel good to play.

With the state that many mechs are in, it feels like downgrading anything right now would be like a car manufacturer that goes "hey we build this amazing sports car and everyone is loving it, we are selling tons of those but our others cars are piling up in the lots, let's make that car less amazing and fun to drive, so people buy our other stuff again!"

Buffing other stuff to its level doesn't work because its an outlier. There's a pretty good baseline that most other powerful mechs cluster around. The Vapor Eagle is then radically out of proportion to everything else around it. Outliers ought to be curbed.