17 replies to this topic

[Georgegad]

It was my impression from decades of digital and paper gaming that streaks were not supposed to fire when a hit was impossible.

They do seem to fire when you get a lock and they are wildly out of range.

Does anyone have a reason for why they fire when out of range?
Are they supposed to, or is it in error, or did someone make a decision at some point that it now had to be this way?

[ImperialKnight]

this isn't those games. every MW/BT game introduces a bit of new things. get use to it

[Ekson Valdez]

Looks like this thread was posted in the wrong section, so I've moved it to General Discussion.
The BattleTech® Discussion is for Battletech® but this is Mechwarrior®

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 19 February 2021 - 03:29 AM.

[Gagis]

If the target is running towards you, you may genuinely want to fire your streaks while they are still outside of your maximum range, so that the missiles hit them as early as possible when they come within range.

Edited by Gagis, 19 February 2021 - 03:43 AM.

[Scout Derek]

Georgegad, on 19 February 2021 - 01:37 AM, said:

It was my impression from decades of digital and paper gaming that streaks were not supposed to fire when a hit was impossible.

They do seem to fire when you get a lock and they are wildly out of range.

Does anyone have a reason for why they fire when out of range?
Are they supposed to, or is it in error, or did someone make a decision at some point that it now had to be this way?

this is MECHWARRIOR



not, battletech table top, mmkay? You know, the franchise that made it's debut as the fps shooter of battletech? The franchise that, doesn't completely follow TT rules because arcade based shootey type of game is more fun?

Edited by Scout Derek, 19 February 2021 - 04:41 AM.

[Georgegad]

Scout Derek, on 19 February 2021 - 04:40 AM, said:

this is MECHWARRIOR



not, battletech table top, mmkay? You know, the franchise that made it's debut as the fps shooter of battletech? The franchise that, doesn't completely follow TT rules because arcade based shootey type of game is more fun?

So what i am hearing is that they didnt do it right the first time and never bothered to fix it.
It has just never worked correctly as expected and never will.

Sounds right.

Gagis, on 19 February 2021 - 03:42 AM, said:

If the target is running towards you, you may genuinely want to fire your streaks while they are still outside of your maximum range, so that the missiles hit them as early as possible when they come within range.

Thank you for taking the time to make a valid point.

I do not think that would account for the hundreds of extra meters of dead range but yes that is a fair reason for why it might fire a few meters early.

Still though, it sounds to me like they just never really understood what it did and it was never built it to work as described.

That is fairly expected i guess.

ImperialKnight, on 19 February 2021 - 01:51 AM, said:

this isn't those games. every MW/BT game introduces a bit of new things. get use to it

It does not work as described.

What they introduced a bug, not a new feature.
It is not providing a new service, it just fails to live up to expectations of its predecessors.

Edited by Georgegad, 19 February 2021 - 05:53 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Streaks are implemented as well as they can be coming from the TT and moving into a shooter game. Unless you teleported them to the enemy once locked and fired, the target could move out of range while the SRMs are traveling, a thing that is not possible on TT, of course.

[Georgegad]

Ekson Valdez, on 19 February 2021 - 03:29 AM, said:

[mod]Looks like this thread was posted in the wrong section, so I've moved it to General Discussion.
The BattleTech® Discussion is for Battletech®
[/mod]

And you will see from my post I am discussing pen and paper Battletech.

But you move it wherever you like, you are a mod, put it wherever it pleases you.

[VonBruinwald]

Scout Derek, on 19 February 2021 - 04:40 AM, said:

this is MECHWARRIOR



not, battletech table top, mmkay? You know, the franchise that made it's debut as the fps shooter of battletech? The franchise that, doesn't completely follow TT rules because arcade based shootey type of game is more fun?

And yet, even though it creates a massive imbalance in the game, the IS-XL dies on a ST loss because of "3 Crits" rule.

Lets follow that one rule and only for that one specific engine even though it's not tabletop.

[PocketYoda]

Lots of things are inconsistant with Battletech in this.. I believe the devs don't play Tabletop or didn't play very much.

[Scout Derek]

Georgegad, on 19 February 2021 - 05:53 AM, said:

So what i am hearing is that they didnt do it right the first time and never bothered to fix it.
It has just never worked correctly as expected and never will.

Sounds right.

If by never fix you mean since the very beginning of Mechwarrior 2 then yes, they never "fixed" it.

VonBruinwald, on 19 February 2021 - 05:57 AM, said:

And yet, even though it creates a massive imbalance in the game, the IS-XL dies on a ST loss because of "3 Crits" rule.

Lets follow that one rule and only for that one specific engine even though it's not tabletop.

I don't think I said anything wrong earlier. Lemme check....

Quote

The franchise that, doesn't completely follow TT rules

hmm, looks like I didn't.

[Georgegad]

VonBruinwald, on 19 February 2021 - 05:57 AM, said:

And yet, even though it creates a massive imbalance in the game, the IS-XL dies on a ST loss because of "3 Crits" rule.

Lets follow that one rule and only for that one specific engine even though it's not tabletop.

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make.

I believe we are already in agreement that I am right with the original description and the current streaks are simply not written to work correctly in the streaks capacity as an ammunition saving feature. If they are being played as just a type of targeting modification that is fine, but they should still conserve ammo when out of max range. That is the main feature of a streak, it allows you to carry less SRM ammo because it wastes less.
If you guys wanted homing missiles, perhaps they should have been named homing missiles to avoid confusion.

Scout Derek, on 19 February 2021 - 06:02 AM, said:

If by never fix you mean since the very beginning of Mechwarrior 2 then yes, they never "fixed" it.

Agreed. Good talk.

[Kotzi]

Afaik, PGI never coded different target locking for streaks and lrms. So the game does not distinguish. LRMs can lock at above 270 so streaks do too although they shouldnt. But my info could be old because i havent played this game for quite a long time, shame actually.

[Georgegad]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 19 February 2021 - 05:54 AM, said:

Streaks are implemented as well as they can be coming from the TT and moving into a shooter game. Unless you teleported them to the enemy once locked and fired, the target could move out of range while the SRMs are traveling, a thing that is not possible on TT, of course.

I do not think it would be so hard to modify the lockout to check they are in firing range not just when it is not locked.

They do not guarantee a hit, they just do not waste ammo when a hit is guaranteed impossible, if a pilot moves into then out of range they would just explode early like LRMs do. As is they fire even when 100s of meters out of range.

[Wolfos31]

To add to this,

Streaks in MW5 do not fire if the target is outside of range. So MW5 more closely follows TT.

Gagis raises a good point about why there may be good reason to fire outside of max range.

And I can def see PGI using lazy coding to just keep SSRM & LRM locking the same. Though I cannot verify that. It's not like the game stops you from firing LRMs within minimum range either, and MW5 DOES prevent firing within minim range on LRMs.

This could play into the "player skill should determine games, and an automated lockout that prevents heat buildup and ammo loss is a crutch." mentality.

[Georgegad]

Wolfos31, on 19 February 2021 - 06:18 AM, said:

To add to this,

This could play into the "player skill should determine games, and an automated lockout that prevents heat buildup and ammo loss is a crutch." mentality.

In my opinion the streaks have extra additional slot costs that make it more like a paid for option rather than a straight out crutch.

Agreeing with you in general however that as sensible as it appears to me mathematically, other players mentality is just as important to them as my math.

[Vlad Ward]

It's not just max range. The concept of "Not firing unless you'd hit" doesn't work in a real time game because it requires time travel.

Example: You lock onto a Commando at 200m and fire your SSRMs. While the SSRMs are on course to the target, the Commando ducks behind a rock. SSRMs slam against the rock. In Tabletop, movement is handled discretely and not continuously. You'd know the Commando would end up behind the rock and not fire. In Mechwarrior, the Commando is either behind the rock or not behind the rock at the moment you pull the trigger. Even if the Commando is behind the rock when you pull the trigger, it may not be behind the rock when the missiles arrive.

The whole concept is nonsense in a real-time shooter and SRMs with guidance just makes more sense. Bonus: More flexibility for the player.

Edit: Double bonus, firing SSRMs within range against a target moving directly away from you at high enough speeds can still result in those missiles running out of fuel before impact.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 19 February 2021 - 10:49 AM.

[Georgegad]

Vlad Ward, on 19 February 2021 - 10:47 AM, said:

It's not just max range. The concept of "Not firing unless you'd hit" doesn't work in a real time game because it requires time travel.

Yes we discussed that.
I believe you misunderstand the idea, it does not fire if it has not achieved a viable hit path. It can still miss in the realtime versions of these game.
As we were saying earlier they would achieve an acceptable lock then fire, but if the target moved away would still run out of fuel at max range to explode before impact. It would also hit cover if, for instance, he suddenly dropped behind an object like the commando in your example.

I am not sure what part you think is nonsense or would require time travel, the same mechanics work well in any number of other games. As the other gentleman pointed out the designers have it coded correctly in MW5 without the need for time travel, it is just that in MWO they apparently recycled LRM code rather than bother to write SRMs their own targeting code.

Thank you though for the discussion. The commando example was excellent and I can see we are on the same train of thought from a tabletop-physics vs computer-physics point of view. The lock fires when viable, but may not continue to be viable once the projectile begins moving and tracking its target.