36 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

The huge issue with putting all quirks into the skill tree is that bad mechs will be unplayable until skilled out. Quirks should stay but personalizing skill trees to each chassis would be cool.

But yeah, PGI needs to establish a real methodology for quirking & not be afraid of adding big quirks for mechs that need them. Some mechs practically don't exist so even being quirked into a niche or two would be much better.

[Meep Meep]

TheArisen, on 27 February 2021 - 12:44 PM, said:

The huge issue with putting all quirks into the skill tree is that bad mechs will be unplayable until skilled out. Quirks should stay but personalizing skill trees to each chassis would be cool.

But yeah, PGI needs to establish a real methodology for quirking & not be afraid of adding big quirks for mechs that need them. Some mechs practically don't exist so even being quirked into a niche or two would be much better.

Which is why I said that certain mechs with specific quirks meant to shore up poor hitboxes and such can stay and the quirks that force a certain playstyle can be moved to the skill tree. Think of it as a further refinement of what is already there so more mechs can become viable and not need a complete rework.

[TheArisen]

VeeOt Dragon, on 27 February 2021 - 01:25 AM, said:

i'm a bit of a lore hound so i love lore based stuff. that doesn't mean the stock loadouts are any good in the context of this game. i like the idea of quirks that pull from the lore use for a mech chassis. so if by lore say a mech was primarily used as a long range fire support then give it some range quirks. also do away with those stupid quirks like a big quirk to say energy when the chassis only has a single energy hardpiont. or heavy missile quirks when a mech only has a single hardpoint in say the center torso (that heavily restricts what can be used there). using lore as a basis for quirks is a good start but flavor it by looking at the chassis hardpionts available.

might have sort of repeated myself but there it is.

The lore role & stock loadout have their place but they should only be adhered to so long as they help accomplish more build variety & making a mech fun to play. I don't think they should be the whole methodology but rather a secondary part of it.

Meep Meep, on 27 February 2021 - 12:52 PM, said:

Which is why I said that certain mechs with specific quirks meant to shore up poor hitboxes and such can stay and the quirks that force a certain playstyle can be moved to the skill tree. Think of it as a further refinement of what is already there so more mechs can become viable and not need a complete rework.

Sounds like it'd be worth a look. Certainly the skill tree could be modified to further boost certain builds.

[PocketYoda]

Wildstreak, on 27 February 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

But for which mode?
This matters as shown in other games.
MOBAs for example balance characters for traditional 5 v 5 three lane mode but some have other Ranked modes and characters wind up in different Tiers depending on which Ranked mode you play. Shooters have the same issue.

Seems MWO assumes balance for 12 v 12 but Pros play 8 v 8 in the year long stuff, Solaris does 1 v 1 and 2 v 2. No one has ever mentioned it before but if Mechs are balanced for 12 v 12, you will get some performing differently in 8 v 8 and even a third difference in S7 as seen by Divisions that are an informal Tier List for S7.

A smart buisiness balances around the most popular content so at this time quickplay 12vs12.. the other modes just aren't viable.

[LordNothing]

Bud Crue, on 27 February 2021 - 11:56 AM, said:

The fact it was a premium mech may have also played a part as well.

ive been wondering about that. the ultraviolet has never seen a nerf despite its extreme range sustained high dps capabilities. so there is definitely some pressure to ignore the better performing hero mechs. now if we could only get them to elevate the weaker heroes.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 28 February 2021 - 02:34 PM, said:

ive been wondering about that. the ultraviolet has never seen a nerf despite its extreme range sustained high dps capabilities. so there is definitely some pressure to ignore the better performing hero mechs. now if we could only get them to elevate the weaker heroes.

What would they even nerf about the UV? Its strength comes from the left and right arm pods, which can be moved onto any C-Bill variant for the same loadouts.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 28 February 2021 - 02:36 PM, said:

What would they even nerf about the UV? Its strength comes from the left and right arm pods, which can be moved onto any C-Bill variant for the same loadouts.

idk. anything they would do would hurt the other variants. short of doing a negaqirk, idk how it would even work. and not that i want it nerfed its one of my favorite mechs. its just such an outlier for me, in my top 10. it might just look bad in the stats because a lot of players cant play direwolves well.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 February 2021 - 02:56 PM.

[TheArisen]

LordNothing, on 28 February 2021 - 02:34 PM, said:

ive been wondering about that. the ultraviolet has never seen a nerf despite its extreme range sustained high dps capabilities. so there is definitely some pressure to ignore the better performing hero mechs. now if we could only get them to elevate the weaker heroes.

A quirk pass on the weaker hero mechs would be great.

[LordNothing]

Meep Meep, on 27 February 2021 - 12:17 PM, said:

Not their own skill tree(though that is actually a pretty good idea in itself so each class can have a more targeted set of skills) but added into the current tree at an appropriate place or possibly a new section added in. This wouldn't remove the need for some mechs to have their own specific quirks as I stated above so that a certain models hitbox can be improved with armor quirks etc. But more in moving quirks that slotted a mech into a certain playstyle into the skill tree so you can choose to use it or something else.

i dont really think thats viable. with over 800 variants in the game that is a lot of skill trees to create, and each needs to be verified so that it doesnt undermine any existing balance. a skill tree per chassis might be better. specific skill trees for each weight class, each tech base, possibly different ones for omnimechs would be the least amount of work as that is only 12 trees (16 if you ever have is omnis).

another option is to just add one tree specific to the chassis, merged into a pruned version of the current tree* and that chassis specific tree may have sub trees that are variant specific. 15 nodes to the chassis with up to 5 additional nodes for the variant. that would be a lot easier to curate than specific trees for everything. these could be a hodgepodge of things, mostly duplicates of other nodes in the tree, like a ballistic mech might get an extra uac jam or extra lbx spread nodes that replace similar quirks. when you balance just change the values on the chassis or variant specific nodes.

* merge multiple duplicate nodes to fewer more powerful nodes on all trees. merge jump jets into mobility. let ops be absorbed by firepower, mobility, and survival. merge consumables into sensors and firepower. etc. get it down to a 150 node tree with a 50 node limit.

[Meep Meep]

LordNothing, on 28 February 2021 - 04:12 PM, said:

i dont really think thats viable. with over 800 variants in the game that is a lot of skill trees to create, and each needs to be verified so that it doesnt undermine any existing balance. a skill tree per chassis might be better. specific skill trees for each weight class, each tech base, possibly different ones for omnimechs would be the least amount of work as that is only 12 trees (16 if you ever have is omnis).

another option is to just add one tree specific to the chassis, merged into a pruned version of the current tree* and that chassis specific tree may have sub trees that are variant specific. 15 nodes to the chassis with up to 5 additional nodes for the variant. that would be a lot easier to curate than specific trees for everything. these could be a hodgepodge of things, mostly duplicates of other nodes in the tree, like a ballistic mech might get an extra uac jam or extra lbx spread nodes that replace similar quirks. when you balance just change the values on the chassis or variant specific nodes.

* merge multiple duplicate nodes to fewer more powerful nodes on all trees. merge jump jets into mobility. let ops be absorbed by firepower, mobility, and survival. merge consumables into sensors and firepower. etc. get it down to a 150 node tree with a 50 node limit.

By class I mean light/medium/heavy/assault getting their own unified skill tree and not a unique tree for each individual mech. That would be waaaaay too much work.

But yes I think a general skill tree revamp is in order and that some of the mechs with too specific quirks can get them replaced with a more generic set and/or add in some to the skill tree as end nodes if you really want them. I think they took a good direction with the skill tree and new weapons but they need some further loving and expansion.

[Wildstreak]

Wonder if the weight choice happening now will play a part in any rebalance.
Heavy keeps getting into 35-50% range often.

[TheArisen]

East Indy, on 27 February 2021 - 07:03 AM, said:

A little bit of both.

Because so much time has passed and new folks have come in since, I'll link an archived database of MWO quirks prior to May 2017. Some are very powerful and focused — take a look at the LCT-1V and DRG-1N — yet neither of those variants was overpowered while becoming a much more common choice among players.

I believe quirks need to reflect a few realities of the game:

• MWO/BattleTech is all about chassis and variants with unique character.
  
• The very basis of a variant is usually a weapons loadout.
  
• Each chassis has many variants, some dozens, and as per Stryker Thunderbolt, PGI can simply invent new ones.
  
• Thus, wherever possible, quirks should balance in-game usefulness with the variant's standard loadout.
  
  • On one hand, this means a BLR-1G doesn't need ballistic quirks while an MAL-MX90 kinda does.
    
  • On the other, you skip the generic "10% Better" quirks, instead encouraging players to customize around a signature weapon system.

This is a good point that even with giga quirks they were fun with a niche but not op.

[Chaotic_Harmony]

FupDup, on 27 February 2021 - 12:01 PM, said:

The Quickdraw has crappy hitboxes so armor quirks are justified in at least some amount (although maybe they don't need to be as large as they are now). The C-Bill variants only get tiny structure quirks which are woefully inadequate to give the mech reasonable survivability.

Yeah, I'd love for my QKD to be good again. Though it IS a god at twisting, I only have so much armor to twist with.

Feels bad man.

[TheArisen]

Chaotic_Harmony, on 03 March 2021 - 07:55 AM, said:

Yeah, I'd love for my QKD to be good again. Though it IS a god at twisting, I only have so much armor to twist with.

Feels bad man.

Yeah some mechs have literally been in need of a buff for years. Imo part of that is PGI shouldn't be afraid of handing out xl sized quirks for mechs in need.

[FupDup]

TheArisen, on 03 March 2021 - 01:37 PM, said:

Yeah some mechs have literally been in need of a buff for years. Imo part of that is PGI shouldn't be afraid of handing out xl sized quirks for mechs in need.

The other part of it is that some players need to be less squeamish about big numbers of spreadsheets. A big part of what got the original quirk philosophy replaced with what we have now is that a fair number of people freaked out over BIG SCARY QUIRK NUMBERS.

Edited by FupDup, 03 March 2021 - 01:40 PM.

[TheArisen]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 01:39 PM, said:

The other part of it is that some players need to be less squeamish about big numbers of spreadsheets. A big part of what got the original quirk philosophy replaced with what we have now is that a fair number of people freaked out over BIG SCARY QUIRK NUMBERS.

Yeah that's part of the point I wanted to make with this thread. That it's ok for some mechs to get big time quirks. Some mechs occupied unique niches thanks to their giga quirks. Sure it'd be nice to not need to rely on quirks but not only has that ship sailed but the geometry of some mechs or their HPs will always require something outside of weapon balance.

Edited by TheArisen, 03 March 2021 - 01:46 PM.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 03 March 2021 - 01:39 PM, said:

The other part of it is that some players need to be less squeamish about big numbers of spreadsheets. A big part of what got the original quirk philosophy replaced with what we have now is that a fair number of people freaked out over BIG SCARY QUIRK NUMBERS.

i love me some crazy quirks. if i can make a mech be really good with one weapon, that makes it usable. there was that meta dragon awhile back that everyone ran in fp. we need more of that.