71 replies to this topic

[The Lobsters]

dario03, on 15 March 2021 - 04:00 PM, said:

You don't need to compare another groups balance proposals for another game. You can see a ton of info on the Gulag proposal here
MWO: Forums - Intel Gathering: Weapons Balance Pass 1 (mwomercs.com)

The largest weapon changes are on weapons that are barely used in comp.

I was comparing the general attitude at the top of the thread.

I've read them. Some good ideas, but generally seems to entrench the current status quo, which lacks diversity imo. Fine tuning 'centre of the map mech smash' will just make bland gameplay more bland.

Aside from light PPC's (wtf?) bumping alphas and heat to encourage more long range gameplay at the expense of brawling ability seem like a good start. I actually miss the old PPFLD days, not that I ever did it. The games were longer, with early sniping stages, trying to maneuver to push the snipers, while light mech distract them, but getting punished if you break cover, all made for more interesting games.

I really thought the calls for PPFLD nerf were overrated.

[The pessimistic optimist]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 04:22 PM, said:

I was comparing the general attitude at the top of the thread.

I've read them. Some good ideas, but generally seems to entrench the current status quo, which lacks diversity imo. Fine tuning 'centre of the map mech smash' will just make bland gameplay more bland.

Aside from light PPC's (wtf?) bumping alphas and heat to encourage more long range gameplay at the expense of brawling ability seem like a good start. I actually miss the old PPFLD days, not that I ever did it. The games were longer, with early sniping stages, trying to maneuver to push the snipers, while light mech distract them, but getting punished if you break cover, all made for more interesting games.

I really thought the calls for PPFLD nerf were overrated.

This game gives you so many options people lack creativity. PPFLD is used because it a low risk style of play that rewards holding ground and sniping

Edited by SirSmokes, 15 March 2021 - 04:29 PM.

[R Valentine]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 04:22 PM, said:

I was comparing the general attitude at the top of the thread.

I've read them. Some good ideas, but generally seems to entrench the current status quo, which lacks diversity imo. Fine tuning 'centre of the map mech smash' will just make bland gameplay more bland.

Aside from light PPC's (wtf?) bumping alphas and heat to encourage more long range gameplay at the expense of brawling ability seem like a good start. I actually miss the old PPFLD days, not that I ever did it. The games were longer, with early sniping stages, trying to maneuver to push the snipers, while light mech distract them, but getting punished if you break cover, all made for more interesting games.

I really thought the calls for PPFLD nerf were overrated.

How does the Gulag entrench the status quo? It's the patch coming that entrenches the status quo. The best weapons in the game, ISMPLs, go untouched. The worst weapons in the game, every other form of laser vomit, go untouched. Bad weapons, like gauss rifles, get nerfed even harder. The only good clan weapon, the cERPPC, becomes only viable on mechs capable of using 3 or more. That's your Vapor Eagles, Warhawks, and Mad Cats. Congratulations, your patch is the one entrenching the status quo. If you think this is somehow shaking up the meta, then you have no idea what the meta is.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Kiran Yagami, on 15 March 2021 - 04:29 PM, said:

How does the Gulag entrench the status quo? It's the patch coming that entrenches the status quo. The best weapons in the game, ISMPLs, go untouched. The worst weapons in the game, every other form of laser vomit, go untouched. Bad weapons, like gauss rifles, get nerfed even harder. The only good clan weapon, the cERPPC, becomes only viable on mechs capable of using 3 or more. That's your Vapor Eagles, Warhawks, and Mad Cats. Congratulations, your patch is the one entrenching the status quo. If you think this is somehow shaking up the meta, then you have no idea what the meta is.

Yes but those 3 PPC mechs are no long jack of all trades. They have a trade long range combat now

Edited by SirSmokes, 15 March 2021 - 04:31 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 03:08 PM, said:

Indeed.

Also, top players have a tendency to balance to entrench a status quo that they play the best at, and miss opportunities to break it. See TheMittani/Goonswarm's bleats about nullsec changes in Eve Online a few years back.

There's a lot of negativity at the top of this page. I'm not that surprised PGI haven't bought it.

I honestly do feel that way that they are tunnel-visioned with what they want, that they don't consider what others want. Not everyone is competitive like them.

That being said, the Gulag, is a ******* compromise. The Gulag being applied, sets the precedence that PGI is actually willing to do the right ****. But their previous patch notes just proved it to us, that they are just back on their own ******** ways. We should just ******* leave, there's no hope for MWO, not with them.

[D A T A]

Stonefalcon, on 15 March 2021 - 04:16 PM, said:

All these PPC and Gauss changes have achieved is the return of the poptartocalypse. Oh and the fact that 3 PPCs can now headshot any mech, last I checked my AWS-8Q has 6 PPCs, in the hands of a 1% pilot this mech can now kill 2 mechs every 6 seconds. Congrats on reducing TTK Chris.

you are not even close, with 7 seconds of cooldown you will be face rushed by mpl vulcans and srm bombers even harder

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 04:22 PM, said:

I was comparing the general attitude at the top of the thread.

I've read them. Some good ideas, but generally seems to entrench the current status quo, which lacks diversity imo. Fine tuning 'centre of the map mech smash' will just make bland gameplay more bland.

Aside from light PPC's (wtf?) bumping alphas and heat to encourage more long range gameplay at the expense of brawling ability seem like a good start. I actually miss the old PPFLD days, not that I ever did it. The games were longer, with early sniping stages, trying to maneuver to push the snipers, while light mech distract them, but getting punished if you break cover, all made for more interesting games.

I really thought the calls for PPFLD nerf were overrated.

you clearly have not read anything: current comp meta is CERPPC and IS medpulse: in the gulag we are basically buffing everything but those ones.
In few words, when you have to talk **** about something, at least read it first.
the major buffs went to things that are currently never used by comp players at all: there is a reason if people who want to win never use certain stuff: it is becasue it's crap.

Edited by D A T A, 15 March 2021 - 04:43 PM.

[The Lobsters]

D A T A, on 15 March 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

you are not even close, with 7 seconds of cooldown you will be face rushed by mpl vulcans and srm bombers even harder



you clearly have not read anything: current comp meta is CERPPC and IS medpulse: in the gulag we are basically buffing everything but those ones.
In few words, when you have to talk **** about something, at least read it first.
the major buffs went to things that are currently never used by comp players at all: there is a reason if people who want to win never use certain stuff: it is becasue it's crap.

I have read it, and I truly respect your effort in putting it together. I do.

It does seem like buffs all round to bring weapons up to the levels of comp meta weapons though, and I'm not sure comp standards always suit other non comp players, that comp is the gold standard. Comp is comp. Focusing purely on the win is fair enough for comp players, totally understandable. I'm not sure that serves the game as a whole.

I want interesting, diverse games with various tactical outcomes, not pure meta, pure win to the exclusion of everything else. It gets boring fast.

[Brauer]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 04:22 PM, said:

I was comparing the general attitude at the top of the thread.

I've read them. Some good ideas, but generally seems to entrench the current status quo, which lacks diversity imo. Fine tuning 'centre of the map mech smash' will just make bland gameplay more bland.

Aside from light PPC's (wtf?) bumping alphas and heat to encourage more long range gameplay at the expense of brawling ability seem like a good start. I actually miss the old PPFLD days, not that I ever did it. The games were longer, with early sniping stages, trying to maneuver to push the snipers, while light mech distract them, but getting punished if you break cover, all made for more interesting games.

I really thought the calls for PPFLD nerf were overrated.

The current patch further cements the DPS meta status quo. The gulag proposal does a lot more to change things than this mess.

[Stonefalcon]

D A T A, on 15 March 2021 - 04:41 PM, said:

you are not even close, with 7 seconds of cooldown you will be face rushed by mpl vulcans and srm bombers even harder.

Yeah, true. I can see this happening with groups in the queue, mostly towards top tier, people looking to have fun via punishment. But can you say this will occur in lower tier where there is less communication between players?

[bad builds bob]

it'll be sweet being able to bumrush PPC mechs even harder now this is an EXCEPTIONAL patch IMHO. Very good patch. Really great work. Just get all those aimers out of this game. Aim Train is now leaving the station *toot toot* ALL ABOARD

Edited by bad builds bob, 15 March 2021 - 05:06 PM.

[D A T A]

Stonefalcon, on 15 March 2021 - 05:05 PM, said:

Yeah, true. I can see this happening with groups in the queue, mostly towards top tier, people looking to have fun via punishment. But can you say this will occur in lower tier where there is less communication between players?

7 secs cooldown is not pug friendly, because it is more punishing if you miss.
And pugs do miss a lot.
Low tiers will still be a lurmocalypse, with some dakka boats. Dakka is strong, and with this patch it becomes stronger

Stonefalcon, on 15 March 2021 - 05:05 PM, said:

Yeah, true. I can see this happening with groups in the queue, mostly towards top tier, people looking to have fun via punishment. But can you say this will occur in lower tier where there is less communication between players?

7 secs cooldown is not pug friendly, because it is more punishing if you miss.
And pugs do miss a lot.
Low tiers will still be a lurmocalypse, with some dakka boats. Dakka is strong, and with this patch it becomes stronger

[D A T A]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 04:58 PM, said:

I have read it, and I truly respect your effort in putting it together. I do.

It does seem like buffs all round to bring weapons up to the levels of comp meta weapons though, and I'm not sure comp standards always suit other non comp players, that comp is the gold standard. Comp is comp. Focusing purely on the win is fair enough for comp players, totally understandable. I'm not sure that serves the game as a whole.

I want interesting, diverse games with various tactical outcomes, not pure meta, pure win to the exclusion of everything else. It gets boring fast.

Meta is nothing but a flaw in the game balance, an error, a mistake.
We want balance, gulag is aimed for that.
We want to buff weak things so they have their own place, their own spot.
You need skill to be able to see this equilibrium, that is what the gulag does.
In fact the meta exists because the game has always been balanced around the feelings of tier 5....which ofc are far from the truth...this has always created more unbalance and more meta as a direct consequence: the unbalance IS the meta

Edited by D A T A, 15 March 2021 - 06:06 PM.

[PocketYoda]

I somewhat agree, i didn't like top players dictating for all of us but even their changes were better than the **** we just got thrown at us...

Seriously how to make the weapons even more useless than they were before.. And whats the ******* obsession with heat in this game..

I didn't touch most PPCs before now i wont touch any of them at all..

Edited by Samial, 15 March 2021 - 08:19 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 04:22 PM, said:

I was comparing the general attitude at the top of the thread.

I've read them. Some good ideas, but generally seems to entrench the current status quo, which lacks diversity imo. Fine tuning 'centre of the map mech smash' will just make bland gameplay more bland.

Meta: UAC5/UAC10, cERPPC, LRM, ATM, AC2, IS-MPL

PGI: Nerf Gauss, nerf Light Gauss, nerf PPC family so only boating on larger mechs is viable, mild AC2 buff, don't touch UAC5/UAC10, don't touch IS-MPL, don't touch LRM, don't touch ATM

Gulag: Buff Gauss, buff Light Gauss, buff IS PPC family, buff RAC5, nerf ATM, nerf LRM, nerf UAC5/UAC10, buff AC20, buff every laser except IS-MPL.

Hmm yes Gulag is totally after preserving status quo, and not after increasing the viability of underperformers to be able to compete with the current strong weapons. /s

[MTier Slayed Up]

I distinctly recall all of the data gathering and even a podcast about this not too long ago. I also said something along the lines of; "well, good luck getting PGI to listen." They have always had a track record of just pissing off the community because they either;

A. Don't want to admit how out of touch with their game and community is.

B. Are not receptive to changes put forth by the community, and have this "I know it better than you guys because I'm the dev" mentality.

Here's a great example:


You can also watch his critique of that change.

I hate it when I'm right, but it's unlikely the changes will be rollbacked, and now we have this. Awesome.

Edit - Mainly because this is the audience they listen to or look to when making these changes instead of being rightfully panned.

SirSmokes, on 15 March 2021 - 04:31 PM, said:

Yes but those 3 PPC mechs are no long jack of all trades. They have a trade long range combat now

Those 3/4 PPC mechs are all jack of all trade mechs already. You can make the Eagle a brawler, an ATM JJ cancer boat, or the PPC poptart that is incredibly common. Are you kidding me? The Madcat is the same. Ranged, ATM, or Brawl. I don't even have to go over the builds. Warhawks can do essentially the same flipping thing and not be affected by it, aside from the ATMs. And I dare you to tell me that you can't front line with any of those mechs rocking those PPC builds that are "exclusive to range."

Like...This one sentence alone is one big "NUH UH!"

Edited by DrtyDshSoap, 15 March 2021 - 10:54 PM.

[Novakaine]

Lurms are meta?

[MyriadDigits]

Novakaine, on 15 March 2021 - 09:17 PM, said:

Lurms are meta?

A-Tier on grimmechs :/

Also tbh have you seen LRM in low tiers? Its downright disgusting.

[YueFei]

The Lobsters, on 15 March 2021 - 04:58 PM, said:

I have read it, and I truly respect your effort in putting it together. I do.

It does seem like buffs all round to bring weapons up to the levels of comp meta weapons though, and I'm not sure comp standards always suit other non comp players, that comp is the gold standard. Comp is comp. Focusing purely on the win is fair enough for comp players, totally understandable. I'm not sure that serves the game as a whole.

I want interesting, diverse games with various tactical outcomes, not pure meta, pure win to the exclusion of everything else. It gets boring fast.

A game that's well balanced, where every weapon and every robot is strong and has its place, is far more diverse. The comp guys aren't effected as much by out-of-whack balance, they'll just pick whatever's strongest and roll with it, they aren't emotionally attached to a particular style. They might have their preferences, but at the end of the day, for them it's just all about finding a way to win.

It's the casual player that's hurt the most by crappy weapons and crappy robots. The dude who picks a robot because it looks cool, and sticks guns on it that suit his style... then goes out and gets smashed over and over again because he happened to be unlucky and picked a robot that sucks and slapped guns on it that suck. Or it used to be a good combo, but PGI doesn't understand nuanced balance changes and nerfed the crap out of it. He's a casual player who doesn't even read the patch notes, but he logs in and all of a sudden his mech moves like a tortoise on its back and his pew-pew doesn't seem to scare anybody anymore...

I've told people this before: I introduced a friend to this game long ago, and he played competitive CS:GO, so he's not a potato when it comes to FPS. But for MWO, he just picked it up to play on a casual level with me. He decided to go for a brawling playstyle, and was having fun. Then PGI nerfed AC20 velocity, and made SRMs 1.5 damage per missile. He quit the game and never came back. Plenty of other video games out there where it's well balanced for various playstyles where he can get the gaming fix he wants. The casual player isn't so heavily invested into the game that they'll spend the time adapting... they'll just leave.

PGI has made this kind of error over and over and over again, and they'll just hemorrhage players every time they do it.

[MTier Slayed Up]

I want to add as a separate note: You have comp players doing all this data gathering for you, free, like an unpaid intern or game testers that tell you what is broken and what is not, and then just willfully ignore it because "well, game tester, what does he know?"

We need to understand the damn game because alot of us at that level are playing to win either for a prize or at least some recognition dammit.

Quit treating us like we're idiots or don't understand the game mechanics at all.

[Malgron]

I had not been following the balance discussions at all, until I read about this patch.

The Gulag presentation is impressive. Very impressive. It's all of the things PGI should have figured out on their own, but never did. Props to all involved with it.


As someone who is tired of the run-up-and-blast-things meta (or "may he with the best armor quirks win"), I am disappointed to see that things will get worse. It was already at the point where if I brought laser vomit or gauss to a decent tier 1 match, I was hurting my team's chances. This patch will only widen that gap. The Gulag proposal should have been taken a lot more seriously.

Edited by Malgron, 15 March 2021 - 11:23 PM.