34 replies to this topic

[Stonefalcon]

Don't thank Jay_Z for his enormous generosity if you are just going to screw with the builds. We've been playing around with the trials for months to make sure they were new player friendly and you've just turned them on their heads ruining all the QA.

Deadset.

Edit: You guys owe Jay a massive apology after all the flak he's copped today.

Edited by Stonefalcon, 16 March 2021 - 04:51 AM.

[Heavy Money]

What did they break exactly? I thought they looked pretty good (certainly much better than the current ones.)

[Adette]

Heavy Money, on 15 March 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

What did they break exactly? I thought they looked pretty good (certainly much better than the current ones.)

The armour values are all over the place. Some mechs have their back armour dropped appropriately and front loaded, others not at all.

Example: Crab looks just about perfect as a trial mech. More experienced players may run back armour on it down to 2-4, but 6 is acceptable. Then you look at the Grasshopper...17 back armour (terrible)....but the Warhammer has 5 (acceptable)....then Hellbringer's is 10 (terrible), but the Warhawk has 6 (acceptable). This is definitely not how I would imagine Jay Z's submitted builds would look like (armour wise).

Edited by Adette, 15 March 2021 - 06:43 PM.

[Splitcart]

Oh who caaaares. Trial mechs are for new players, new players are more likely to turn around and run away in a straight line without twisting sideways, not to mention new players are more likely to shoot other new teammates in the back.

[PocketYoda]

Adette, on 15 March 2021 - 06:04 PM, said:

The armour values are all over the place. Some mechs have their back armour dropped appropriately and front loaded, others not at all.

Example: Crab looks just about perfect as a trial mech. More experienced players may run back armour on it down to 2-4, but 6 is acceptable. Then you look at the Grasshopper...17 back armour (terrible)....but the Warhammer has 5 (acceptable)....then Hellbringer's is 10 (terrible), but the Warhawk has 6 (acceptable). This is definitely not how I would imagine Jay Z's submitted builds would look like (armour wise).

Those back armors are way to low for new customers.. 12 should be the go to.. This is why you do not let meta customers dictate for newbies..

**** even i wont go below 10...

Back Armor
Lights 8-10
Mediums 10-12
Heavies 14-16
Assaults 16-20

Edited by Samial, 15 March 2021 - 08:01 PM.

[Adette]

Samial, on 15 March 2021 - 07:59 PM, said:

Those back armors are way to low for new customers.. 12 should be the go to.. This is why you do not let meta customers dictate for newbies..

**** even i wont go below 10...

Back Armor
Lights 8-10
Mediums 10-12
Heavies 14-16
Assaults 16-20

This is how newbies and bad players get 1-2 shot through the CT

[PocketYoda]

Adette, on 15 March 2021 - 08:02 PM, said:

This is how newbies and bad players get 1-2 shot through the CT

Better than being 1 shot through the back.. Honestly lights and fast mediums are going to have a field day with cadets and anyone stupid enough to use these..

Glad i can add whatever to my mechs.. I'd never use trial mechs now. I'm trying to keep newbs alive while top tiers are getting them killed instantly..

Edited by Samial, 15 March 2021 - 09:00 PM.

[MyriadDigits]

Samial, on 15 March 2021 - 08:59 PM, said:

Better than being 1 shot through the back.. Honestly lights and fast mediums are going to have a field day with cadets and anyone stupid enough to use these..

Glad i can add whatever to my mechs.. I'd never use trial mechs now. I'm trying to keep newbs alive while top tiers are getting them killed instantly..

Only way you're gonna "stop" backshots from being a threat is by going 50/50 on armor, but then you're just getting spit-roasted. It just makes more problems.

[Elizander]

Heavy Money, on 15 March 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

What did they break exactly? I thought they looked pretty good (certainly much better than the current ones.)

Commando missing 3 armor CT and has 0.1 ton spare. Grasshopper with 15/17/15 backarmor, weapons in arms and -17 arm armor. Direwolf favors left side with weapons when we all know that weapons are better on the right side. Newbie mechs with 1-2 head armor... Newbie's don't twist or move much. They can now practically die to 1 Gauss Rifle/Heavy PPC shot or 2 PPCs. Missing arm actuators when there's no reason for them to not be there. Adder PPCs in arms when ST mounts are much higher and better for peeking. As a whole, this group of trials look very sloppily put together.

Now I am curious as to what the original designs were.

Edited by Elizander, 16 March 2021 - 03:05 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Samial, on 15 March 2021 - 07:59 PM, said:

Those back armors are way to low for new customers.. 12 should be the go to.. This is why you do not let meta customers dictate for newbies..

**** even i wont go below 10...

Back Armor
Lights 8-10
Mediums 10-12
Heavies 14-16
Assaults 16-20

I am a bit sleep deprived but let me take a shot at this. If you are constantly getting killed from behind that should be a sign you are doing something wrong. The response to it at any level is not more back armor but not doing the things that let people kill you from behind all the time.

[Mech Walesa]

Samial, on 15 March 2021 - 07:59 PM, said:

Those back armors are way to low for new customers.. 12 should be the go to.. This is why you do not let meta customers dictate for newbies..

**** even i wont go below 10...

Back Armor
Lights 8-10
Mediums 10-12
Heavies 14-16
Assaults 16-20

have you tried shooting while moving?

[denAirwalkerrr]

Samial, on 15 March 2021 - 08:59 PM, said:

Better than being 1 shot through the back.. Honestly lights and fast mediums are going to have a field day with cadets and anyone stupid enough to use these..

Glad i can add whatever to my mechs.. I'd never use trial mechs now. I'm trying to keep newbs alive while top tiers are getting them killed instantly..

If you're dying in less then 95% cases from your front CT/Torsos armor at 0 and then recieving damage to your CT structure from front until you die you're doing something really wrong chief.

Here's build for 68 alpha ACW https://mech.nav-alp...#76bb2f26_ACW-1 which is just a bit less then say meta Fafnir 2xHGR+5xML which is 75.

With you values anything short of 80-85 tonner is still a oneshot to the back. And even for 85+ you're basically dead if anything sneezes at your back CT.

So A. even if you want to survive proper backstabs it's not enough and B. have you ever heard about such concept as map awareness? I personally can't recall last time I got oneshotted in the back in anything heavier then lights.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 16 March 2021 - 06:24 AM.

[Tarogato]

Samial, on 15 March 2021 - 08:59 PM, said:

Better than being 1 shot through the back.. Honestly lights and fast mediums are going to have a field day with cadets and anyone stupid enough to use these..

Glad i can add whatever to my mechs.. I'd never use trial mechs now. I'm trying to keep newbs alive while top tiers are getting them killed instantly..

Even new players take more damage from the front then from the back. Have you watched any of them recently? They stare at things while shooting. Stand, and shoot. Reducing their front CT armour by between 10 and 20 points is how you get them to die faster, every single game. Reducing your rear CT armour to 0 is how you get them to die faster one in 10 or 20 games.

We have this pervasive issue of new players thinking they need to massively reduce their front armour to survive backshots. Maybe having trials that punish them for showing their backs will get them to learn to not rely on back armour.

I agree trials should have more rear armour. Maybe 8 or 10 on assaults, 4 on lights. But your numbers are so high, they are in the territory of necessitating you to intentionally show your back to the enemy to consistently use all the armour you equipped on your mech. If the armour isn't getting shot at, it's being wasted.

[TercieI]

Tarogato, on 16 March 2021 - 06:30 AM, said:

Even new players take more damage from the front then from the back. Have you watched any of them recently? They stare at things while shooting. Stand, and shoot. Reducing their front CT armour by between 10 and 20 points is how you get them to die faster, every single game. Reducing your rear CT armour to 0 is how you get them to die faster one in 10 or 20 games.

We have this pervasive issue of new players thinking they need to massively reduce their front armour to survive backshots. Maybe having trials that punish them for showing their backs will get them to learn to not rely on back armour.

I agree trials should have more rear armour. Maybe 8 or 10 on assaults, 4 on lights. But your numbers are so high, they are in the territory of necessitating you to intentionally show your back to the enemy to consistently use all the armour you equipped on your mech. If the armour isn't getting shot at, it's being wasted.

I never actually did it, but heard suggested: Start with 10% back armor. Every time you die from the front, move a point to the front, every time you die from the back, move a point to the back. You'll find the balance. (And it should be almost no back armor).

Even if you don't actually do it, thinking about it should point out to you how comparatively rare rear deaths are.

Edited by TercieI, 16 March 2021 - 06:43 AM.

[PocketYoda]

XX Sulla XX, on 16 March 2021 - 05:10 AM, said:

I am a bit sleep deprived but let me take a shot at this. If you are constantly getting killed from behind that should be a sign you are doing something wrong. The response to it at any level is not more back armor but not doing the things that let people kill you from behind all the time.

New players do not play like top tier 1s.. They have no area awareness they are new to mechs and do not understand how to shield or spread damage.. This is not about me..

Mech Walesa, on 16 March 2021 - 05:53 AM, said:

have you tried shooting while moving?

Yes.. Have you...

denAirwalkerrr, on 16 March 2021 - 06:14 AM, said:

If you're dying in less then 95% cases from your front CT/Torsos armor at 0 and then recieving damage to your CT structure from front until you die you're doing something really wrong chief.

Here's build for 68 alpha ACW https://mech.nav-alp...#76bb2f26_ACW-1 which is just a bit less then say meta Fafnir 2xHGR+5xML which is 75.

With you values anything short of 80-85 tonner is still a oneshot to the back. And even for 85+ you're basically dead if anything sneezes at your back CT.

So A. even if you want to survive proper backstabs it's not enough and B. have you ever heard about such concept as map awareness? I personally can't recall last time I got oneshotted in the back in anything heavier then lights.

This is not about my piloting or me its about new players learning how to use mechs.. what exactly are they learning if they are one shot every match.. other than maybe uninstalling out of rage..

Tarogato, on 16 March 2021 - 06:30 AM, said:

Even new players take more damage from the front then from the back. Have you watched any of them recently? They stare at things while shooting. Stand, and shoot. Reducing their front CT armour by between 10 and 20 points is how you get them to die faster, every single game. Reducing your rear CT armour to 0 is how you get them to die faster one in 10 or 20 games.

We have this pervasive issue of new players thinking they need to massively reduce their front armour to survive backshots. Maybe having trials that punish them for showing their backs will get them to learn to not rely on back armour.

I agree trials should have more rear armour. Maybe 8 or 10 on assaults, 4 on lights. But your numbers are so high, they are in the territory of necessitating you to intentionally show your back to the enemy to consistently use all the armour you equipped on your mech. If the armour isn't getting shot at, it's being wasted.

Yes they take damage to the front then turn around and run away... instantly dying. 20 back armor is tiny on an Assault.. I usually run 16-20 depending on the mech and speed..

Edited by Samial, 16 March 2021 - 06:55 AM.

[Tarogato]

TercieI, on 16 March 2021 - 06:43 AM, said:

I never actually did it, but heard suggested: Start with 10% back armor. Every time you die from the front, move a point to the front, every time you die from the back, move a point to the back. You'll find the balance. (And it should be almost no back armor).

Even if you don't actually do it, thinking about it should point out to you how comparatively rare rear deaths are.

That seems like a disingenuous way of going about it. This will result in 0 back armour, invariably, because you're only increasing it on back-specific deaths.

The proper way to do is, is ...

- if you have back armour remaining at the end of the match, reduce by 1
- if you used all your back armour, and died (front or back), increase by 1

Logic is, once your back is open, you start taking structure damage. Structure damage matters equally from the front as from the back, so taking back shots is actually hurting you from the front.

Doing this should still get you close to 1 back armour though. I've not done is this way, I only cooked it up just now.

[TercieI]

Tarogato, on 16 March 2021 - 07:09 AM, said:

That seems like a disingenuous way of going about it. This will result in 0 back armour, invariably, because you're only increasing it on back-specific deaths.

The proper way to do is, is ...

- if you have back armour remaining at the end of the match, reduce by 1
- if you used all your back armour, and died (front or back), increase by 1

Logic is, once your back is open, you start taking structure damage. Structure damage matters equally from the front as from the back, so taking back shots is actually hurting you from the front.

Doing this should still get you close to 1 back armour though. I've not done is this way, I only cooked it up just now.

Well, like I said, it's more a thought experiment. Either way, yeah, the answer is 1.

[Adette]

Samial, on 16 March 2021 - 06:50 AM, said:

New players do not play like top tier 1s.. They have no area awareness they are new to mechs and do not understand how to shield or spread damage.. This is not about me..

Yes.. Have you...


This is not about my piloting or me its about new players learning how to use mechs.. what exactly are they learning if they are one shot every match.. other than maybe uninstalling out of rage..



Yes they take damage to the front then turn around and run away... instantly dying. 20 back armor is tiny on an Assault.. I usually run 16-20 depending on the mech and speed..

They learn nothing if they peek up and instantly get rekted and die. Far more newbies die getting 1-2 shot from the front using bad trial mechs than those that get killed from the back. I've rarely ever seen a newbies attempt to turn to run away, they're usually just dead.

Also, you're right, they have no map awareness, 30 back armour won't save newbies because they don't understand they need to turn to deal with getting shot in the back, most aren't even aware they're getting shot in the back when it happens.

Edited by Adette, 16 March 2021 - 07:28 AM.

[GuavaPastry]

There are two main points to consider against this argument.

Have you considered that starter mechs are purposely designed with flaws? Part of the fun of the game is learning and discovery. If the mechs were optimal, this part of the game would be lost. Giving new players strong, but flawed mechs allows them to immediately enjoy playing the game while giving them a starting point in their cultivation of game knowledge.

Specifically on the point of back armor, front armor is optimized for holding specific angles, twisting and trading. You are trying to edge out the opponent assuming you have perfect knowledge of how a fight will go. A new player does not know every angle on a map. They are going to need to learn this. They are going to get out of position. They are going to get flanked while zoomed in. If they die instantly as a result of getting in a bad situation, they will never learn how to deal with a bad situation and that just isn't fun.

Also, 10 back armor isn't even that bad. I run 7-8 on a lot of lights with no shame.

[GARION26]

I played in two tier 5 presumably matches (cadets on both sides) this morning.
Twice a guy alpha'd another team mate from the rear about ten seconds after the drop started (two different guys) one of them went on to almost leg a friendly mech about 15 -20 seconds into the drop. The second guy who shot two team mates in the span of about 10 seconds didn't even say anything about it (he was not a cadet.) The first guy was at least apologetic.

And I was shot but not apparently alpha'd three times total from the back by my own team (mining colony and HPG on the top during a push) in those two games in a hellbringer (I'm a tier 4 8-10 points in my back guy still but it's dropping over time.)

One of the reds team killed another red when the match was 10-7 or so and was degenerating into a snowball.

In that same match one of our last two was a cadet in a non champion mech (thus non trial) overheat 4- 6 times or so in a row, never once over riding - just boot up alpha, miss, overheat and shut down over and over again.

I'm a tier 4 schlubb with just under a year of play but I looked around in those matches this morning and thought what the heck is going on here.

What I'm saying is the skill curve on MWO is very steep - back armor is probably not a waste when you and your team mates haven't mastered basic skills and you run into someone even say 100 games of experience ahead of you.

As others have noted trial mechs don't have to be perfect for high level play just more generally competitive then the ones currently being used.

Edited by GARION26, 18 March 2021 - 08:25 AM.