400 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

DAEDALOS513, on 24 March 2021 - 12:49 PM, said:

Personally I feel that with all these buffs the compers want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to keep the meta as is for those days when they feeling lazy and want easy damage.. then they also want to have the option to take non-meta and do just as well in.. in essence this boils down to a a casual gamer nerf because it helps them the least.

Don't be so negative. All changes favor "comp players", including the current PPC changes, because these are the players that figure out the nuances of the changes first, apply changes to mech builds, and use it in practice the earliest. Does this mean we shouldn't make any changes at all?

TTK will go down for all players, T1 or T5. You'll just see the changes in meta in T1 first, before it propagates through the rest.

Edited by Nightbird, 24 March 2021 - 12:53 PM.

[John Bronco]

Tragic that this thread has gotten bogged down by a single poster who seems to want the game to be a slow, unbalanced mess, with long games of quick play because all the weapons do pretty much nothing.

Looking forward to testing all this stuff on the PTS and anticipating the return of fun to the game, and if TTK significantly drops I'm sure they'll dial things back a bit. Everyone seems to be in agreement TTK on live right now is about right so the goal should be to maintain that overall.

[DAEDALOS513]

BlaizerP, on 24 March 2021 - 12:55 PM, said:

Tragic that this thread has gotten bogged down by a single poster who seems to want the game to be a slow, unbalanced mess, with long games of quick play because all the weapons do pretty much nothing.

Looking forward to testing all this stuff on the PTS and anticipating the return of fun to the game, and if TTK significantly drops I'm sure they'll dial things back a bit. Everyone seems to be in agreement TTK on live right now is about right so the goal should be to maintain that overall.

No I want the game to have MORE action, MORE balance, and yes longer match times cuz 4-5 minute game times aren't enough to justify search times, walking to battle time, etc.

If weapons do less.. guess what, there will be more chance for action, more firing.. you won't be the only one hitting softer.. so will be the enemy.. that means MORE chances to shoot those lasers, MORE chance to fire those rockets.. you guys are so afraid to let go of your high alpha, one hit corers.. it's sad really.

"IF?" ttk goes down? How will it not if weapons are stronger? smh

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 24 March 2021 - 02:04 PM.

[Gagis]

Nightbird, on 24 March 2021 - 12:42 PM, said:

Basically, the pop mechs with 3E in good positions will be buffed relatively to those with 2E. Is it necessary? Are the mechs with more E points underpowered compared with those with less?

I'd argue that we should balance for the "generalist" PPC to have a role first, and then find niches where the "specialist" versions of ERPPC, HPPC, SNPPC and LPPC have their own narrower roles. Right now PPC is the one that has no home.

HPPC is admittedly hardest to figure out a meaningful niche for without making it just the same as PPC but better. In the board game doing damage in a large chunk instead of dividing it into multiple weapons helps with both headshots and getting as much damage into a single component as possible. This advantage is irrelevant in MWO, so it'll have to fit some other niche.

Being able to take maximum advantage of the few closest and highest hardpoints is one advantage at least. Far more mechs can have 2 weapons on high mounts next to each other than can have 3. Dunno if that is enough of a niche.

[Nightbird]

Gagis, on 24 March 2021 - 12:59 PM, said:

I'd argue that we should balance for the "generalist" PPC to have a role first, and then find niches where the "specialist" versions of ERPPC, HPPC, SNPPC and LPPC have their own narrower roles. Right now PPC is the one that has no home.

HPPC is admittedly hardest to figure out a meaningful niche for without making it just the same as PPC but better. In the board game doing damage in a large chunk instead of dividing it into multiple weapons helps with both headshots and getting as much damage into a single component as possible. This advantage is irrelevant in MWO, so it'll have to fit some other niche.

Being able to take maximum advantage of the few closest and highest hardpoints is one advantage at least. Far more mechs can have 2 weapons on high mounts next to each other than can have 3. Dunno if that is enough of a niche.

I'm not against the changes to the PPC, if you read that you're mistaken. I'm saying the HPPC should be compensated for losing the 50% alpha damage advantage it had. It could be fixed as easily as lowering the cooldown to 4.5 seconds, so you save a ton and a slot for 12% less DPS .

Edited by Nightbird, 24 March 2021 - 01:06 PM.

[Sjorpha]

The HPPC could actually be given a niche inspired by the otherwise stupid changes in the recent patch, make it really high damage and long cooldown.

So 2HPPC could have about the same DPS as 3 normal PPC in the end with but less facetime and higher alpha.

Edited by Sjorpha, 24 March 2021 - 01:13 PM.

[Nightbird]

Sjorpha, on 24 March 2021 - 01:11 PM, said:

So 2HPPC could have about the same DPS as 3 normal PPC in the end with but less facetime and higher alpha.

This would make the HPPC OP. 2HPPC is 1 ton lighter and 1 less slot after all. I would like to see values such that, if I had 3 good high points (like in BJ-3, GHR-5P), there is a thinking process on pros and cons with either set of weapons. It shouldn't be, 3PPCs, no-brainer! Likewise, if a mech only has 2 good E points, I shouldn't think F, if only it had 1 more, it'd be a decent mech! That's all.

[FupDup]

Y'all are making this too complicated. Regular PPCs being capped lower than HPPCs made differentiation very easy because it gave the HPPC a distinct advantage of its own. All that was left to do is find a different advantage for the regular PPC, such as having more efficient damage-per-heat, a little more velocity, whatever. HPPC is the sledgehammer choice, PPC is the efficient choice.

[Vindicated]

Nightbird, on 24 March 2021 - 01:05 PM, said:

I'm not against the changes to the PPC, if you read that you're mistaken. I'm saying the HPPC should be compensated for losing the 50% alpha damage advantage it had. It could be fixed as easily as lowering the cooldown to 4.5 seconds, so you save a ton and a slot for 12% less DPS .

15 dmg/13 heat > 10/9 dmg heat

Used thecauldron.nav-alpha.com mechdb spinoff to check. Assuming the same # of HS (or 1 down for 3 PPC if you prefer, but assume you just dropped the engine size or stripped armor somewhere), sustained DPS is higher for 2 HPPC than 3 PPC whereas 3 PPC has higher peak DPS. Meaning they will still have slightly different purposes.

[Nightbird]

Vindicated, on 24 March 2021 - 01:25 PM, said:

15 dmg/13 heat > 10/9 dmg heat

Used thecauldron.nav-alpha.com mechdb spinoff to check. Assuming the same # of HS (or 1 down for 3 PPC if you prefer, but assume you just dropped the engine size or stripped armor somewhere), sustained DPS is higher for 2 HPPC than 3 PPC whereas 3 PPC has higher peak DPS. Meaning they will still have slightly different purposes.

4% more DPS over time is not enough to pick over 25% more peak DPS. Anyone that picks the former deserves to be slagged.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 24 March 2021 - 11:42 AM, said:

Since PPC ghost heat limit is 3, allowing 30 damage, what is the advantage of HPPC that warrants a 5s cooldown versus 4 for PPCs? It is 1 ton less but 5% less tonnage for 25% less DPS seems severe.

Its also cooler and takes 1 less slot and 1 less hardpoint.

Also not against the cooldown being a little faster though.

MechB Kotare, on 24 March 2021 - 11:41 AM, said:

I think it will be laser vomit meta all over again. But i shall adapt like i always did.

I do hope however, that lrm velocity nerf only concerns indirect fire. I dont see any reason why direct fire should get any nerf.

I'm hoping that laser vomit becomes a little better so mechs that really can only run laser vomit (Supernova) can be effective again. Of course want everything to be balanced.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 March 2021 - 01:35 PM.

[Vindicated]

Nightbird, on 24 March 2021 - 01:31 PM, said:

4% more DPS over time is not enough to pick over 25% more peak DPS. Anyone that picks the former deserves to be slagged.

If you assume you drop a HS for 3 PPC, then it's a bit more. For example, going apples to apples HPPC BJ-3 vs PPC BJ-3, it's 12% (percent will differ for various builds). CauldronDB (nav-alpha.com) MechDB - BJ-3 (nav-alpha.com)

Sure, maybe 4% is negligible, I'll agree with that. That is a 0.15 DPS which is 36 extra over 240 seconds (guess about how long you have to shoot on average, probably not too far off) which may or may not have resulted in killing a mech.

If you factor in 1 HS difference, you get 0.45 DPS difference which is 110 extra over those 240 seconds. Definitely enough to kill a mech. So in this comparison you would have to factor in the extra ton and extra HS difference, unless you want to strip armor or drop the engine (81 to 72 kph in this BJ-3) or both.

In a mixed ballistic + PPC mech, the sustained DPS difference adds up a bit more. Using a random 2 HPPC build off grimmechs and not touching HS (quick change for proof of concept).
CauldronDB (nav-alpha.com)
MechDB - FNR-6R (nav-alpha.com)

0.66 sustained DPS difference = 79.2 damage in just 120 seconds (or 158.4 in 240 if you want to be consistent). Both builds still fairly heatcapped so I think the number still holds if you want to sync AC10 and PPCs.

[Nightbird]

Vindicated, on 24 March 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

If you assume you drop a HS for 3 PPC, then it's a bit more. For example, going apples to apples HPPC BJ-3 vs PPC BJ-3, it's 12% (percent will differ for various builds). CauldronDB (nav-alpha.com) MechDB - BJ-3 (nav-alpha.com)

Sure, maybe 4% is negligible, I'll agree with that. That is a 0.15 DPS which is 36 extra over 240 seconds (guess about how long you have to shoot on average, probably not too far off) which may or may not have resulted in killing a mech.

If you factor in 1 HS difference, you get 0.45 DPS difference which is 110 extra over those 240 seconds. Definitely enough to kill a mech. So in this comparison you would have to factor in the extra ton and extra HS difference, unless you want to strip armor or drop the engine (81 to 72 kph in this BJ-3) or both.

In a mixed ballistic + PPC mech, the sustained DPS difference adds up a bit more. Using a random 2 HPPC build off grimmechs and not touching HS (quick change for proof of concept).
CauldronDB (nav-alpha.com)
MechDB - FNR-6R (nav-alpha.com)

0.66 sustained DPS difference = 79.2 damage in just 120 seconds (or 158.4 in 240 if you want to be consistent). Both builds still fairly heatcapped so I think the number still holds if you want to sync AC10 and PPCs.

Both builds only have 1 extra slot, not giving you an extra DHS to math with.

https://thecauldron....#_42f96a36_BJ-3
https://thecauldron....cce6b630_FNR-6R

[Wid1046]

Krasnopesky, on 24 March 2021 - 11:29 AM, said:

We re-balanced clan streaks, not nerfed them. We have reduced the amount of damage they do per alpha, but greatly increased the rate at which they fire and how much heat they generate per shot. The end result is actually an increase in damage per second (DPS).

Also streaks are much better at dealing with lights than SRMs are for a number of reasons. The delay to firing them at a light is not as much as you claim (provided you equip tag/bap as you should with streaks) and the homing nature of the streaks means most if not all the damage connects to the light mech. SRMs on the other hand will typically miss a significant portion of their alpha due to range and spread. Our changes to clan streaks will reduce the potential one shot capabilities of clan streak boats, but increase the possible damage they can do throughout a match. The changes also make clan streaks more usable against larger 'Mechs than they currently are.

LRM health has received a percentage buff based on the existing stats, smaller launchers (5s / 10s) are not taken as much as larger ones and are often less effective, hence PGI changing the health to favour smaller launchers years ago. Our PTS has done nothing to change this concept.

Streaks have a lower damage to heat ratio with the proposed changes, so their sustained dps will actually drop by a little over 10% (going from 0.5333 damage/heat to 0.4839 damage/heat). If you want them to be more usable against heavier targets, this might be a step backwards. That said, they might still feel fine if you keep engagements short and disengage when you get heat capped.

Well, testing out things like this is what the PTS is for. I'll test out a few builds when the PTS drops; hopefully members of the Cauldron do too to make sure the changes work as intended.

(An example regarding what I mean about sustained dps dropping: https://mech.nav-alp...#e531faf3_HMN-P vs https://thecauldron....#e531faf3_HMN-P )

[Vindicated]

Nightbird, on 24 March 2021 - 03:34 PM, said:

Both builds only have 1 extra slot, not giving you an extra DHS to math with.

https://thecauldron....#_42f96a36_BJ-3
https://thecauldron....cce6b630_FNR-6R

Correct, on that BJ-3 you can drop some armor to negate the extra ton from 3 PPC to keep 13 HS. Or drop the engine. MechDB - BJ-3 (nav-alpha.com) Something in between might (there is light ferro change though) work as well, I didn't spend time playing around

But if you want to keep full armor AND the engine size, going from 2 HPPC to 3 PPC, you would have to drop to 12 HS. That's what I meant by extra HS (the 1 less ton for HPPC). Probably a better example exists for being able to fit one more DHS with 2 HPPC vs 3 PPC, but I just looked at the smallest practical 2 HPPC mech I knew.

The AC10 + HPPC was just something I used to look at how mixed builds get impacted by the HPPC damage per heat difference, so I just used 15 HS for both 3 PPC and 2 HPPC. The impact in this case is already enough without dropping an HS for 3 PPC (and there is enough tonnage to play around with) so I just dropped 1/2 ton ammo and some more non-PPC arm armor (I think, I just did a quick change) to compensate for the extra ton for 3 PPC.

[Nightbird]

Nan, that BJ is fully armored. It's a top-poker/pop-tarter, you don't use leg armor. You only lose DPS using the HPPC.

If there is a build where you don't have 9 slots but have 8 slots, I can see HPPC having a role, but it's another case were more E points is better.

[DAEDALOS513]

Nothing wrong with the firestarter.. I ran it 8 times and actually had a lot of fun with it (none of the screen shots are hand-picked btw) with only 4 nodes in agility (my jenny is the one i loaded with agility) using either 8ML or 6ERML and 1jj. It performed from average to way above average (compared to teamates and enemy scores), win or lose, except maybe once when I died very early to a triple ppc shot to the torso. But we all know peeps are broken now and that's why they're reverting them back.

I'm posting these to show that the firestarter is perfectly fine. You see... the side-effect of using crutch mechs is that it deadens your skill and you become lazy. You forget how to play smart because you don't have to in a veagle, or a vulcan..

https://imgur.com/a/yCY4g44

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 24 March 2021 - 06:57 PM.

[dario03]

Wid1046, on 24 March 2021 - 04:04 PM, said:

Streaks have a lower damage to heat ratio with the proposed changes, so their sustained dps will actually drop by a little over 10% (going from 0.5333 damage/heat to 0.4839 damage/heat). If you want them to be more usable against heavier targets, this might be a step backwards. That said, they might still feel fine if you keep engagements short and disengage when you get heat capped.

Well, testing out things like this is what the PTS is for. I'll test out a few builds when the PTS drops; hopefully members of the Cauldron do too to make sure the changes work as intended.

(An example regarding what I mean about sustained dps dropping: https://mech.nav-alp...#e531faf3_HMN-P vs https://thecauldron....#e531faf3_HMN-P )

The sustained is lower but it still takes a long time to heatcap if you group fire. The higher burst damage should be more useful than being able to fire longer.

[GweNTLeR]

I want to add a few things here, regarding balancing missile weapon types with lock on mechanic.
First of all, I cant really understand why you took away AMS range boost from the initial proposal but left the missile health boosted. Is there any reason for it? Looks like you are nerfing AMS capabilities against most missile
weapon types except for LRM. I dont think this is a step in the right direction. In my opinion the current situation with missiles and AMS highly resembles situation with ECM from before skill tree, where ECM was as an ultimate defensive measure. I remind you, that that problem was solved with ECM range reduction.
So what in my opinion should be done with AMS and missiles in general?
1) First of all, range reduction to AMS and DPS increase (Nightbird proposal fully supported - https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6384195). This would make AMS a more general counter with better individual counter capabilities to ATM (it is necessary) and streaks;
2) Missile health boost removed from patch (MRM health boost is completely unjust), except for LRM since velocity nerf;
3) Indirect lock on time (without tag/narc assistance) should be increased by 1.2-1.7 times;*
4) NARC duration and cooldown should be decreased by 2 times, ammo per ton increased by 2 times;
5) I think it would be nice to have some AMS disabling mechanic (similar to ECM being countered by PPC hit - maybe even the same?).

* I think I need some explainaition here. The elephant in the room are MRMs and lack of their counterpart on clan side. As a mostly FP player, it bothers me. As it was already proven by Humble Dumpster, it is possible to use C-LRM in a similar way to MRM. And IMO, that was a pretty good idea overall, that should be considered at least. To make it work, LRM should be reworked as a more direct fire weapon.

Also, regarding ATM 3 changes. "ATM3 has +2 GH limit with 1.8 missile health" - this sounds like a pretty bad idea actually. ATM 3 is a very strong anti-light weapon, it has a minimal spread with few projectiles, which leads to all the missiles hitting almost the same spot. With 5 of them you can possibly oneshot most lights.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 24 March 2021 - 08:26 PM.

[Antares102]

If I could ask for anything to be tried on the PTS it would be this:
https://mwomercs.com...-pellet-damage/
(Wow this thread is also 5 years old...)

LBX pellets having more damage e.g. 50% but at the same MUCH more spread to be more close range weapons and real shotguns.

Edited by Antares102, 25 March 2021 - 11:38 AM.