114 replies to this topic

[Last Of The Brunnen-G]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 12:54 AM, said:

Here's Idea to start for LRMs.



The point of this, is much like PPCs this march patch. And while that sounds awful, it is because it is. What happened to PPCs this patch is made it more all or nothing, much more unforgiving if you miss. And this is exactly the same thought.

LRMs always had been about high dps/ton, and is about throwing a LOT of LRMs in the air for effect. By frontloading LRMs, it requires better skill now, with less hits it can feel less oppressive.

The additional changes to NARC and TAG is to push the IDF role from that of LRMs to the spotter tool's instead, giving them the niche because that is the only way you can IDF effectively. People just cannot easily circumvent your cover, not without proper spotters. And because it requires proper spotters, now it means that it can easily be countered by disabling the spotter.

The NARC in particular would have reduced duration, but increased ammo. This makes players peek more, and make IDFing more brief.

What you are supposing is making LRMs even stronger... When i play my 8R (because it's awesome) i often can only manage to hold the lock long enough for 1 or 2 salvos. So the initial damage boost for the first salvo would more than make up for the cooldown nerf. Missile alpha strikes would become more deadly if you boat a lot. The only real loser would be mobile LRM mechs that have better chance to hold looks. If at all you should consider the opposite change.

[The6thMessenger]

MasterBurte, on 22 March 2021 - 11:20 AM, said:

What you are supposing is making LRMs even stronger... When i play my 8R (because it's awesome) i often can only manage to hold the lock long enough for 1 or 2 salvos. So the initial damage boost for the first salvo would more than make up for the cooldown nerf. Missile alpha strikes would become more deadly if you boat a lot. The only real loser would be mobile LRM mechs that have better chance to hold looks. If at all you should consider the opposite change.

It's only stronger just like PPCs right now are "stronger". It would be less spam, but more unforgiving if you miss.

[Zigmund Freud]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

It can be oppressive to get narced in the middle of Polar Highlands, around hungry hungry LRM boats and there's NOTHING you can do about it -- you can hide under ECM cover, yeah, but in many cases it's just LRMs that will blot out the sun

Addenum:

This is the absolute worst scenario you can face LRMs in, it should be oppressive. No matter how much you nerf LRMs and NARC, as long as they exist, getting NARCed in the middle of open field with no ECM or AMS around will be and should be the worst.

But in general I think lurms are in pretty good spot right now, I like the different spread with direct and indirect fire modes.

I think gulag people are crazy biased against lurms, and nerfing their velocity while buffing pretty much every other weapon and reducing mechs' size and buffing mobility (hopefully) is extremely stupid.

[The6thMessenger]

Zigmund Freud, on 22 March 2021 - 02:46 PM, said:

This is the absolute worst scenario you can face LRMs in, it should be oppressive. No matter how much you nerf LRMs and NARC, as long as they exist, getting NARCed in the middle of open field with no ECM or AMS around will be and should be the worst.

True. But it's that I could say traumatic experience even to a small degree that puts a black mark on LRMs.

Zigmund Freud, on 22 March 2021 - 02:46 PM, said:

But in general I think lurms are in pretty good spot right now, I like the different spread with direct and indirect fire modes.

I think gulag people are crazy biased against lurms, and nerfing their velocity while buffing pretty much every other weapon and reducing mechs' size and buffing mobility (hopefully) is extremely stupid.

Actually I agree, not with the gulag but with you. While I agree that they pretty much have a lot of good for MWO, there's just a lot of anti homing weapons there.

[Zigmund Freud]

The6thMessenger, on 22 March 2021 - 03:05 PM, said:

True. But it's that I could say traumatic experience even to a small degree that puts a black mark on LRMs.

This could be fixed a lot by simply removing maps voting. Think about it, the more lurmers 24 people drop have, the more likely it is that Polar will be voted for, and it creates a bias, turning already lurm-friendly map into insane lurmfest.

Without map votes we'll end up with normal distribution of all weapon systems, and lrms won't be so overwhelming on Polar, without any nerfs at all.

It would also save me from getting HPG Manifold five times in a row.

[Basilisk222]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

No, this ain't an LRM OP thread. But given the PTS by the Gulag, and their apparent reworking of UACs, which I like, maybe we could also fix other problematic mechanics in the game.

One of the people in the Comp, I don't want to point names, and hopefully it's not offensive to mention his statement which might make him identifiable, he told me that Homing Weapons in general, are "Bully weapons".

Honestly, I was like "wow seriously?" in disbelief, for while homing weapons do offer near 100% chance to land due to basically being autoaim homing-weapons, you have the capacity to break lock anyways. If you don't have the skills to use cover, there's always AMS cover. Compared to bonafide direct-fire weapons, if you can land your shots anyways you're just jumping through of maintaining locks and slower projectile speed than lets say a PPC, but it's much more accessible to those of low aim skill.

That being said, and let me be perfectly clear, I agree, somewhat. It can be oppressive to get narced in the middle of Polar Highlands, around hungry hungry LRM boats and there's NOTHING you can do about it -- you can hide under ECM cover, yeah, but in many cases it's just LRMs that will blot out the sun. It's a mechanic, that if you get this right, can be downright unfair.

Maybe it's time to have some sort of mechanic rework, or re-niching of homing weapons?

Your Thoughts?

Addenum:

This sounds far more like a map problem than it does a lock on problem. The systems should work largely correctly with appropriate design changes to maps which let's be honest, we're not getting. Or the ability to choose a mech based on the map. Really, a significant amount of issues with balance, and weapon tuning could be curbed with the ability to choose a mech to drop. But we're likely not getting that kind of a system either because nebulous "resources" excuses. However I do have dumpy solution using what we have now.

The system is essentially in place already with faction warfare, and would require tweaks to select a mech from a drop deck you have.
Here's my solution, a drop deck of mechs you keep, that would basically allow you to hotswap a mech out if it isn't suitable to a map(up to 4 total mechs) Within 10-15 seconds you can re-choose ONE mech, if the mech initially loaded in isn't suitable to your needs, you can eject. then redrop with another mech in your drop deck list. Animation replays as normal so you may be at a time deficit, but at least you're in a mech more suited to the map being played. (If this works, it can be refined)

This should be doable right now, with current code, and existing systems, with extremely limited testing needed, and should be easy to implement, because it literally already exists for another game mode.

LRM heavy maps can expect players to redrop with the ability to counter, hot maps can run cooler mechs, cold maps can run hotter mechs.

Should improve gameplay significantly and balance shouldn't need excessive adjustment. At the very least, balance can be looked at somewhat more objectively.

I acknowledge this is left field, but I really believe blind dropping really has a huge hand in this issue. Running a mech ill suited to the map at hand is frustrating for pilots, and really screws with gameplay. If pilots had choice to counter or attack in the map's element, I think a lot of these problems would really go away, or at the every least have a solution players could work towards.

I know I'd probably run some mechs more like my kit fox to contribute better, mostly on the basis that 3 x AMS on wide open fields makes my assault buddies much happier.

It'd also probably shake the meta up some, and allow players to make more focused builds based on maps.

I say all of this fully acknowledging that in no freaking way would this ever happen. But, I think I've outlined a potential solution to OP's issue, and possibly one that would address many others. As I really do believe a significant number of issues really are derived from stupendously inconsistent map design.

[The6thMessenger]

Zigmund Freud, on 23 March 2021 - 01:17 PM, said:

This could be fixed a lot by simply removing maps voting. Think about it, the more lurmers 24 people drop have, the more likely it is that Polar will be voted for, and it creates a bias, turning already lurm-friendly map into insane lurmfest.

Without map votes we'll end up with normal distribution of all weapon systems, and lrms won't be so overwhelming on Polar, without any nerfs at all.

It would also save me from getting HPG Manifold five times in a row.

That still does not change the fact that you can still get lurmed bad some place else like Alpine Peaks, or in Grim Plexus.

I think it just needs mechanics rework.

[The Mysterious Fox]

id say just reduce HSL and increase CD, i think the new arcs and targeting system they brought in like 2 years ago did some good work to bring lrms closer to front but boating still needs to be discouraged

[Meep Meep]

I suppose if something needs to be nerfed about lrm it would be on clan lights ability to boat them too.. Plus this wasn't even a good game as I only was able to run though half the ammo.

[YueFei]

The6thMessenger, on 23 March 2021 - 02:34 PM, said:

That still does not change the fact that you can still get lurmed bad some place else like Alpine Peaks, or in Grim Plexus.

I think it just needs mechanics rework.

Yeah, main thing here is to give player agency and counter-play options. But at this stage I think mechanical changes are out of scope, unfortunately.

[50 50]

The6thMessenger, on 19 March 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

Maybe it's time to have some sort of mechanic rework, or re-niching of homing weapons?

Personally I thought the LRMs could be simply changed to be a direct fire long range missile weapon with no lock on.
Simply: the long range version of SRMs and MRMs.

Couple of reasons behind that thinking.
1. The lock on mechanic can be reserved for the streak weapons and then creates room for Streak LRMs, should we ever see those, so it is distinctly different.
2. It also creates room for a specialized indirect fire version of missile launchers along with a few other different types of indirect fire weapons.... preferably with a HUD update and some other features to cater for it. Again so we have distinctly different weapons.

[The6thMessenger]

50 50, on 23 March 2021 - 10:06 PM, said:

Personally I thought the LRMs could be simply changed to be a direct fire long range missile weapon with no lock on.
Simply: the long range version of SRMs and MRMs.

Hitting long range is hard without significant velocity boost.

And once you do that, you're also encroaching on MRM territory.

[YueFei]

The6thMessenger, on 23 March 2021 - 10:16 PM, said:

Hitting long range is hard without significant velocity boost.

And once you do that, you're also encroaching on MRM territory.

Might be possible if it's manually-guided instead of auto-lock-on. As in, you can manually adjust flight path mid-flight. As with missiles in real life, you'd have a certain maneuvering budget, with the missile's available G changing throughout its flight (so that at the tail end of its flight it'd have reduced ability to pull hard maneuvers), so it limits the kind of shenanigans you could pull off. But if you're skilled enough, it'd have enough maneuverability for you to bend shots around cover to hit people, including bending it around cover sideways.

This would open up dynamic for counter-play by the opponent being shot at, as well, because if you expend a significant fraction of the LRMs' maneuvering budget on bending it around cover, it has less remaining for you to use to match the target's evasive maneuvers in the terminal phase.

In other FPS, people can pull off some amazing grenade throws/bounces, for example.

Could even allow an LRM shooter to manually control the spread. If you're confident about that shot you're bending to hit someone blind behind cover, you could tighten it up, at the risk of whiffing completely. Or, you could manually spread them out to hit a wider area and guarantee at least some impacts, with the trade-off being that your damage will be spread out and less efficient.

But like I said, I don't think it's feasible for PGI to overhaul LRM mechanics at this point.

[Meep Meep]

YueFei, on 23 March 2021 - 11:13 PM, said:

But like I said, I don't think it's feasible for PGI to overhaul LRM mechanics at this point.

If the biggest issue is boating then increase clan launcher weight by a half ton for 5/10 and one ton for 15/20 and one ton for IS 5/10 and one and a half tons for 15 and two tons for 20. Now you either boat and completely sacrifice all extras and some ammo too or drop a launcher or two and get it all back.

[The6thMessenger]

YueFei, on 23 March 2021 - 11:13 PM, said:

Might be possible if it's manually-guided instead of auto-lock-on. As in, you can manually adjust flight path mid-flight. As with missiles in real life, you'd have a certain maneuvering budget, with the missile's available G changing throughout its flight (so that at the tail end of its flight it'd have reduced ability to pull hard maneuvers), so it limits the kind of shenanigans you could pull off. But if you're skilled enough, it'd have enough maneuverability for you to bend shots around cover to hit people, including bending it around cover sideways.

This would open up dynamic for counter-play by the opponent being shot at, as well, because if you expend a significant fraction of the LRMs' maneuvering budget on bending it around cover, it has less remaining for you to use to match the target's evasive maneuvers in the terminal phase.

You mean Half-Life rocket launcher.

LRM needs a lot of AOE damage and to be single-shot with that.

The Freeman in BL3 has rapid fire, and it's quite stupid that you can fire off multiple rockets and guide them at the same time. This means as you steer the farthest missile, the closest missile will also move.

This system just wouldn't translate well with what we are trying to do.

[Meep Meep]

Starting to take a shine to this jenner.. You guys better work fast.

[aardappelianen]

just make lrms and atms shootable with lasers and mgs

[Meep Meep]

Please, make the madness stop..



Might as well pretty it up.

Edited by Meep Meep, 24 March 2021 - 06:31 AM.

[Miliru]

Honestly I think that homing missiles are the red haired step child in this game. You have ******** who go around stroking their epeen with screen shots of how much damage they do vs dumb opponents who don't take cover and have no ams support. This is then taken as gospel for how powerful homing missiles are.
In my experience missiles have a number of pros and cons.
Homing missiles are countered up the waazoo.
ECM and stealth armor stopping locks
Power down stopping locks
Nobody on your team locking, that stops indirect fire locks
LOS stopping locks.
No other weapon has an onboard system that directly counters it's use. By this I mean AMS. One or two mechs on the field Corsair and Kit Fox can emasculate all the missile boats on the field. There is no other passive defense system for ballistic or energy.
I've had battles where I've dumped 3k+ missiles and only done 28 or so damage. Why because the enemy team played well, they all had 1 AMS system at least and my team didn't play in a manner that was conducive for proper missile boating. Other times I've gone in, my team kept locks, used UAV, the other team didn't shoot them down, no AMS, no breaking locks and it becomes a turkey shoot.

[InvictusLee]

I think LRMs should be rolled back to v1.0 from the beta.
They are a pain in the *** to use as is and the only reason i keep using them is to piss off elitists who think lrms are op, require no skill and LRM boats are sitting ducks.... right until they run into my ac20's/ppc's. Im already a dakka aimbot, LRMs are just fun and funny.