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With All The Returning Players In The Queue


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#21 Vlad Ward

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Posted 29 March 2021 - 09:17 AM

View PostGARION26, on 29 March 2021 - 09:03 AM, said:

I don't see any real advantage of reseeding people regularly. Yes someone who has been out of the game may have skill atrophy but that's going to be corrected for with drops in PSR gradually based on how often they play.

The data is calculable on how long it takes to move up- max movement is 24 points per game. Someone who is a true 1% player who is somehow in tier 5 is probably going to consistently get 24 point upticks. 5 games for 96 point game in PSR, 50 games for 960 point gain. The higher they go of course the slower they would gain as they are less likely to get the 24 point increase games and in some cases as they face better opposition they will have games they go down. At some point they'll hit their cap either based on their PSR up and down games balancing out or because they hit the true PSR cap of 5000.

By definition 99% of us aren't as good as a true 1% player - we're going to go up slower on average even starting in tier 5 and we'll hit our equilibrium point at a much lower PSR value. But you can pick whatever number you want to use for average PSR gain per match from a tier 5 start to calculate how long until they hit that players equilibrium point.


Planning for regular reseeding ensures the infrastructure is in place for unplanned reseeding. PGI reseeded the global population once last year and reseeded the global inactive population a second time. Changes in Match Score calculations (which are planned) will doubtlessly cause some shuffling as well.

Placement matches and reseeding are a control against low sample size. People who play 10,000 matches a year aren't going to see an impact, and admittedly that's a majority of posters on these boards, but it's not typical of any online game's population.

#22 martian

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Posted 29 March 2021 - 09:31 AM

View PostVlad Ward, on 29 March 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

I mean, no? I feel like we're not understanding each other. The crux of what I'm proposing are placement matches and seeding. Periodic resets are simply there to allow people to take advantage of placement matches after their cadet period ends.

The climbing will still happen in the current system, but it won't be fun for anyone. DATA posted a good example of a match that would drive new players nuts earlier. Good players will either climb via a smaller number of hugely disproportionate matches or a larger number of less egregious stomps. Either way, it's a pretty big impact on the low-mid tier population that could be avoided by common sense solutions implemented in most other ranked PvP games.

I think that the matter would be easier to discuss if you could post a more thorough description of your suggested system (i.e. more details and numbers about those placement matches, seeding, anti-abuse measures, etc.)

#23 GARION26

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Posted 29 March 2021 - 12:02 PM

View PostVlad Ward, on 29 March 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:


Planning for regular reseeding ensures the infrastructure is in place for unplanned reseeding. PGI reseeded the global population once last year and reseeded the global inactive population a second time. Changes in Match Score calculations (which are planned) will doubtlessly cause some shuffling as well.

Placement matches and reseeding are a control against low sample size. People who play 10,000 matches a year aren't going to see an impact, and admittedly that's a majority of posters on these boards, but it's not typical of any online game's population.


Vlad even after rereading this this thread I'm still not sure I understand what you think are the pros of regular reseeding the base.
Sure you could make an argument for placement matches if you were reseeding which is most of your posts in this thread. But I think most of us discussing in this thread are really struggling to see the upsides of regular reseeding which is the only places where rapid placement matches are really needed.

Reseeding was absolutely needed given the failure of the PSR system prior to the June 2020 PSR reset. And I think the reseeding of inactive veterans to tier 5 instead of 3 was probably accidental when cadets were moved to 5 - but so be it, it's a relatively small part of the player base (hasn't played in 6 months AND comes back to play enough games to really impact the tier 5 population experience)

But if you aren't doing an intentional hard reboot on how PSR is calculated (June 2020) why reseed everyone again at all?

#24 Vlad Ward

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Posted 29 March 2021 - 12:48 PM

View PostGARION26, on 29 March 2021 - 12:02 PM, said:

But if you aren't doing an intentional hard reboot on how PSR is calculated (June 2020) why reseed everyone again at all?


Pulse checks.

The PSR system as written is always going to work fine so long as everyone plays lim n -> infinity matches, but in reality it fails to account for people with low activity levels or periodic gaps in playtime.

A typical seasonal reset would use previous performance as a baseline. That's 'seeding.' People who were in Tier 5 last season are likely going to stay in Tier 5 this season unless they demonstrate a significant improvement in their placement matches. Vice versa for players coming from Tier 1.

I'm actually caught a bit off guard by the need to explain this. This is common practice in ranked PvP games. It's not reinventing the wheel. I'm suggesting adding wheels to our sled to turn it into a cart.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 29 March 2021 - 12:49 PM.


#25 Kira Onime

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Posted 29 March 2021 - 06:43 PM

View PostVlad Ward, on 28 March 2021 - 09:53 AM, said:

. 200-300 games is a reasonable pace for T1-level players hit by the reset, particularly after they increased the PSR range to 5000.


Seems about right.
Never considered myself as a top player but currently half way through T2 at 300 games.

#26 Grus

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 04:59 AM

View PostVlad Ward, on 28 March 2021 - 08:55 AM, said:

It seems like a good time to think about adding a Placement Match system. Perhaps even regular PSR resets + Seeding/Weighting based on previous rank (Quarterly?).

It takes hundreds of matches to grind back from Cadet T5 to T1 and every inactive player is now in the T5 bucket after the December patch. That's hundreds of matches where returning comp players and veterans are stepping on the heads of Cadets and actual T4/T5 players on their way up - through no 'fault' of their own.

I actually like the overall design of the PSR system and matchmaker. Building it to rely on Match Score lets you tweak that if you want to incentivize/disincentivize different things. The problem is that It doesn't have a mechanism for dealing with pilots who aren't actually new players after a reset.

Thoughts?


Nice touch liking your own post. Classy


How dare you try to rob us of our fun of clubing seals. Some of the matches i had getting out of t5 (didn't take many) was the feeling of absolute GODHOOD wrecking face of these poor defenseless seals. That shear unadulterated slaughter (que Rocket's "Oh, Yeah." Scene) was what got me back into playing.

So join Greenpeace if you wanna cry about the baby seals... I'm putting more nails in my bat...

#27 GARION26

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 06:55 AM

View PostVlad Ward, on 29 March 2021 - 12:48 PM, said:

Garion26 wrote " [color=#959595]But if you aren't doing an intentional hard reboot on how PSR is calculated (June 2020) why reseed everyone again at all?[/color]
"

Pulse checks.

The PSR system as written is always going to work fine so long as everyone plays lim n -> infinity matches, but in reality it fails to account for people with low activity levels or periodic gaps in playtime.


Vlad I'm still not understanding your point. "Pulse checks" meaning what?

Yes the PSR system could speed up correct placement for new accounts (or accounts who haven't played since the PSR reset) by having seeding matches.

I'm asking though why you are assuming a need to reseed the entire population intermittently. Your response seems to be a defense of why seeding matches would be useful. Not a response to my question - am I missing your point.

Yes games that use a ladder system have periodic resets (otherwise no one would catch the number one player in the world) an example of this I am familiar with is Hearthstone but do games that use an accrued skill rating system do periodic resets? Not in my limited online gaming experience - with something like Walking War Robots it's much like the old PSR system with an experience bar to my understanding. That 'helps' encourage people to hit a wall where they then have to buy things to stay competitive not an approach that MWO has taken.

Chess for example has the very well defined ELO system that never has resets (though some implementations of ELO for other games use a degradation over time model to account for people not playing.)

Edited by GARION26, 31 March 2021 - 06:57 AM.


#28 Alexander of Macedon

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 04:54 PM

View PostGrus, on 31 March 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

Nice touch liking your own post. Classy


How dare you try to rob us of our fun of clubing seals. Some of the matches i had getting out of t5 (didn't take many) was the feeling of absolute GODHOOD wrecking face of these poor defenseless seals. That shear unadulterated slaughter (que Rocket's "Oh, Yeah." Scene) was what got me back into playing.

So join Greenpeace if you wanna cry about the baby seals... I'm putting more nails in my bat...



Thanks, but my own experience with managing to shoot entire legs and side torsos off of people with a Spider before they noticed that they were being shot has not been especially thrilling. It's a catch-22, I want to get back to T1 so I can have challenging matches but I don't want to have to deal with playing more matches like the ones I've been having.

#29 Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky

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Posted 31 March 2021 - 05:34 PM

Qualification match’s (or re-seeding) should only be used for competitive modes in pvp games.

Quick play mode... honestly is just casual mode. The current PSR tier system is fine for our limited player base playing in quick play mode. A vast majority of the player base stuck in Tiers 5 and 4 just want to have fun and casually shoot robots and most likely would like to avoid placement matches.

The only in-game competition modes are Solaris and faction play- and the World Champs tournament.

As far as I can see, we do not have a large enough player base to use a ranking system for faction play..

Solaris already has too many buckets as is...

And world championships already has its own system outside of PSR tiers.

Outside of the game, community driven leagues and tournaments have their own systems of separating players into divisions...

Anyway, that’s just my two cents...





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