704 replies to this topic

[Big-G]

So? For all those that already spent a butload of c-bills and gsp on respec’ing mechs away from PPC’s and Gauss’... will we receive some form of compensation as apology for the stupid March patch? Cause it’s gonna cost the same if not more to recover back to them...

[Kray76]

As i said.
The experienced players, will killing the newbies more faster.
YOu dont understand, that the newbie players, didnt play long enought to learn the game if they killed on the first sign by experienced players. And i saying you, with this setting, i will kill many of the lesser experienced players faster, Most of them are sitting in big Mechs with a lot of LBX. So you came along with some pinpoint weapon, you can aim, they have no chance. And they dont know why. Result of this, they playing some painfull matches and going offline because this game isnt funny.
There will be new meta, you listed some of the actually meta, so theyre will be new ones, more devestating ones.
Thats definetly the wrong way, if we want to grow the playerbase,
Even my friends dont wanna play this game, because they are dying, before they understand why. But they playing War Thunder or World of Tanks, because this games has an "Arcade" mode for newbies, to learn the mechanics, and go one level upward step by step. Here, are you as an newby completly lost. And dont say, join a clan. The most players are joining a clan after they have played a lot of hours. I am also not in a clan., If a game is only playable, if youre in a clan, then its something going wrong. If you wanna earn money for your servers.

[gearheadstu]

This is a really encouraging development. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out, in every sense of the phrase

[TTB]

Lockheed_, on 02 April 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

With all the changes coming I am sure this will provide a content creator like you with days/weeks of material for new builds.
I am looking forward to see what's gonna be rolling out of your mechlab!

Weird and glorious big stompy rabbits. It's gonna happen.

[SPNKRGrenth]

Big-G, on 02 April 2021 - 03:36 PM, said:

So? For all those that already spent a butload of c-bills and gsp on respec’ing mechs away from PPC’s and Gauss’... will we receive some form of compensation as apology for the stupid March patch? Cause it’s gonna cost the same if not more to recover back to them...

If you already spec'd a mech for a certain build, then spent extra to spec that same mech into a new build, there's no extra cost for swapping to previous skill tree nodes that were already unlocked. Meaning it costs nothing to "recover" the old skill tree build on the same mech. Only exception is if you sold the old mech and bought a new one for some reason.

[Big-G]

SPNKRGrenth, on 02 April 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:

If you already spec'd a mech for a certain build, then spent extra to spec that same mech into a new build, there's no extra cost for swapping to previous skill tree nodes that were already unlocked. Meaning it costs nothing to "recover" the old skill tree build on the same mech. Only exception is if you sold the old mech and bought a new one for some reason.

Ignoring equipment and weapon costs...

[Heavy Money]

Big-G, on 02 April 2021 - 04:21 PM, said:

Ignoring equipment and weapon costs...

Did you sell all the old weapons or something?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

TTB, on 02 April 2021 - 04:05 PM, said:

Weird and glorious big stompy rabbits. It's gonna happen.

I’m already eying up the King Crab

RAC/5
AC/20
3 x Rocket 10s
3 x Snub-Nosed PPC

[FindersWeepers]

3rac5 anni gang where we at

[Krasnopesky]

Kray76, on 02 April 2021 - 03:48 PM, said:

As i said.
The experienced players, will killing the newbies more faster.
YOu dont understand, that the newbie players, didnt play long enought to learn the game if they killed on the first sign by experienced players. And i saying you, with this setting, i will kill many of the lesser experienced players faster, Most of them are sitting in big Mechs with a lot of LBX. So you came along with some pinpoint weapon, you can aim, they have no chance. And they dont know why. Result of this, they playing some painfull matches and going offline because this game isnt funny.
There will be new meta, you listed some of the actually meta, so theyre will be new ones, more devestating ones.
Thats definetly the wrong way, if we want to grow the playerbase,
Even my friends dont wanna play this game, because they are dying, before they understand why. But they playing War Thunder or World of Tanks, because this games has an "Arcade" mode for newbies, to learn the mechanics, and go one level upward step by step. Here, are you as an newby completly lost. And dont say, join a clan. The most players are joining a clan after they have played a lot of hours. I am also not in a clan., If a game is only playable, if youre in a clan, then its something going wrong. If you wanna earn money for your servers.

We have not buffed the 'top meta' weapons at all (cERPPC, IS MPL, UAC5&10, AC2, LBX10). Those are the weapons that currently allow skilled players to kill 'newbies' the fastest. We have simply buffed underperforming weapons to make them competitive with these top meta choices thus allowing players of all skill levels to enjoy many viable weapons and not be punished for taking an inferior choice.

This will not result in players dying any faster than they currently do. The buffs will not allow pilots to destroy mechs any faster than the current top choices already do. There will simply be more viable weapon choices.

Edited by Krasnopesky, 03 April 2021 - 01:25 PM.

[Hiten Bongz]

I agree with the majority of the changes. But I have questions regarding ATM changes.

Mainly: why would anyone use ATMs anymore with reduced close range damage (it's only real advantage over LRM spam) while the huge dead zone still remains? I was really hoping the dead zone would finally be removed and the weapon balanced a bit better to counter that.

I'll lay out some examples of my thoughts on this. Let's use ATM 9 vs LRM 20 for some of these comparisons.

Baseline: ATM 9 weighs the same and takes the same amount of crits as an LRM 20
(that is best-case scenario for ATMs, as lower "equivalent" LRM launchers use less crits)

- ATM 9 will now only do 2.5 more damage at "close" range than the LRM 20
(note that ATMs already had a close range zone nerf so it is not easy to zone properly for max damage in most mechs capable of taking a scary amount of launchers)
- ATM 9 will still do less damage in medium and long ranges than LRM 20
- ATM 9 salvos/shots per ton still less than LRM 20
- ATMs have lower flight path than LRMs, and subsequently hits more terrain/cover
- ATMs have ~125m dead zone, while LRM can still do some damage under 125m
- ATMs have a longer cooldown than LRMs, no matter the launcher size
- ATMs will probably now be less heat-efficient for their DPS than LRMs, even in close range
+ ATMs now slightly more effective against AMS boats
= ATMs will have a bit more damage at long range, but due to low arc, and more tons of ammo required to carry to be effective (vs. LRMs), nobody really uses ATMs beyond medium ranges and probably still won't
= ATM spread slightly better than LRM, but you can slap Artemis on your equivalent LRM launchers, to make up for that discrepancy if you wish - as you don't have to carry as many tons of LRM ammo to begin with (and as mentioned above, smaller "equivalent" LRM launchers already use less crit space anyways)

Maybe I'm missing something, but unless the massive dead zone gets removed, I just see people switching ATMs for equivalent LRM launchers. Is this really what we want?

Thoughts? I'm not a top player but I'm not terribad by any means, maybe I'm overlooking some stuff, or not "getting it" with these changes. Either way, kinda sucks ATM minimum range didn't get deleted and the weapon balanced after that.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 02 April 2021 - 04:53 PM.

[Kray76]

Krasnopesky, on 02 April 2021 - 04:31 PM, said:

We have not buffed the 'top meta' weapons at all (cERPPC, IS MPL, UAC5&10, AC2, LBX10). Those are the weapons that currently allow skilled players to kill 'newbies' the fastest. We have simply buffed underperforming weapons to make them competitive with these top meta choices thus allowing players of all skill levels to enjoy a many viable weapons and not be punished for taking an inferior choice.

This will not result in players dying any faster than they currently do. The buffs will not allow pilots to destroy mechs any faster than the current top choices already do. There will simply be more viable weapon choices.

lol. what are you thinking about the effect of that, if i change my guns from uac 20 to 2x AC 20, and firing them once?
Most of the players will be withdraf in panic and the second shot is coming.

This is the wrongest direction what we can make. That will be horrible for new players.
Also the other changes, with no heat penality etc.
The so called couldron has failed. They makes only changes for experienced players (and really, they dont need it) and not for the new players. And sorry, but we need new players!!
so WTF? This will result in new players dying more faster. Youre living in the wrong universe buddy.

[Big-G]

Heavy Money, on 02 April 2021 - 04:23 PM, said:

Did you sell all the old weapons or something?

Yes, to recoup c-bills to buy new equipment... I don't have millions in c-bills to just through around, so I don't hold on to dead money in equipment I don't use...

[Krasnopesky]

Kray76, on 02 April 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

lol. what are you thinking about the effect of that, if i change my guns from uac 20 to 2x AC 20, and firing them once?
Most of the players will be withdraf in panic and the second shot is coming.

This is the wrongest direction what we can make. That will be horrible for new players.
Also the other changes, with no heat penality etc.
The so called couldron has failed. They makes only changes for experienced players (and really, they dont need it) and not for the new players. And sorry, but we need new players!!
so WTF? This will result in new players dying more faster. Youre living in the wrong universe buddy.

I disagree. New players will be able to enjoy a wider variety of viable weapons and experienced players will not be anymore efficient at killing an enemy than they currently are. A 2x UAC10 + 2x UAC5 Assault Mech will kill a 'new player' just as fast if not faster than any of the buffed weapons in this patch.

I will also point out that new players start in tier 5 now so they will not see an experienced skilled player until they manage to progress to tier 3.

Before you pass judgement just from reading these changes you should experience them in game so you can see firsthand.

[cougurt]

Kray76, on 02 April 2021 - 04:49 PM, said:

lol. what are you thinking about the effect of that, if i change my guns from uac 20 to 2x AC 20, and firing them once?
Most of the players will be withdraf in panic and the second shot is coming.

This is the wrongest direction what we can make. That will be horrible for new players.
Also the other changes, with no heat penality etc.
The so called couldron has failed. They makes only changes for experienced players (and really, they dont need it) and not for the new players. And sorry, but we need new players!!
so WTF? This will result in new players dying more faster. Youre living in the wrong universe buddy.

or you could just use dual heavy gauss and dish out heatless 50 damage alphas.

the average TTK may drop slightly, but only as a result of currently weak weapons/builds being made stronger, which doesn't favor experienced players more than anyone else.

[Krasnopesky]

Hiten Bongz, on 02 April 2021 - 04:37 PM, said:

I agree with the majority of the changes. But I have questions regarding ATM changes.

Mainly: why would anyone use ATMs anymore with reduced close range damage (it's only real advantage over LRM spam) while the huge dead zone still remains? I was really hoping the dead zone would finally be removed and the weapon balanced a bit better to counter that.

I'll lay out some examples of my thoughts on this. Let's use ATM 9 vs LRM 20 for some of these comparisons.

Baseline: ATM 9 weighs the same and takes the same amount of crits as an LRM 20
(that is best-case scenario for ATMs, as lower "equivalent" LRM launchers use less crits)

- ATM 9 will now only do 2.5 more damage at "close" range than the LRM 20
(note that ATMs already had a close range zone nerf so it is not easy to zone properly for max damage in most mechs capable of taking a scary amount of launchers)
- ATM 9 will still do less damage in medium and long ranges than LRM 20
- ATM 9 salvos/shots per ton still less than LRM 20
- ATMs have lower flight path than LRMs, and subsequently hits more terrain/cover
- ATMs have ~125m dead zone, while LRM can still do some damage under 125m
- ATMs have a longer cooldown than LRMs, no matter the launcher size
- ATMs will probably now be less heat-efficient for their DPS than LRMs, even in close range
+ ATMs now slightly more effective against AMS boats
= ATMs will have a bit more damage at long range, but due to low arc, and more tons of ammo required to carry to be effective (vs. LRMs), nobody really uses ATMs beyond medium ranges and probably still won't
= ATM spread slightly better than LRM, but you can slap Artemis on your equivalent LRM launchers, to make up for that discrepancy if you wish - as you don't have to carry as many tons of LRM ammo to begin with (and as mentioned above, smaller "equivalent" LRM launchers already use less crit space anyways)

Maybe I'm missing something, but unless the massive dead zone gets removed, I just see people switching ATMs for equivalent LRM launchers. Is this really what we want?

Thoughts? I'm not a top player but I'm not terribad by any means, maybe I'm overlooking some stuff, or not "getting it" with these changes. Either way, kinda sucks ATM minimum range didn't get deleted and the weapon balanced after that.

If you look at the damage clan LRMs do under ~100m you will be surprised, it is extremely low.

The difference in spread for an ATM9 compared to LRM20 is quite large (3.5 vs 5.05). When simply comparing numbers on a spreadsheet that does not seem like much, but in practice it makes a large difference. If you add Artemis to the LRM20 suddenly it takes up more slots and is a lot heavier too (and still has worse spread). The ammo difference between the two launchers does not make up for this completely.

The other major difference to note is how long it takes an LRM20 to fire all of it's missiles compared to an ATM9. ATM9s fire all their missiles in 0.4 seconds while it takes an LRM20 0.95 seconds. Again this difference may not seem huge but functionally it makes a lot of difference in game.

Finally you can only shoot 2 LRM20s without ghost heat, while you can shoot 3 ATM9s without ghost heat. LRMs also have greater ghost heat penalties compared to ATMs. This means when fired en masse the LRMs will actually be a bit hotter.

[Kray76]

Krasnopesky, on 02 April 2021 - 05:02 PM, said:

I disagree. New players will be able to enjoy a wider variety of viable weapons and experienced players will not be anymore efficient at killing an enemy than they currently are. A 2x UAC10 + 2x UAC5 Assault Mech will kill a 'new player' just as fast if not faster than any of the buffed weapons in this patch.

I will also point out that new players start in tier 5 now so they will not see an experienced skilled player until they manage to progress to tier 3.

Before you pass judgement just from reading these changes you should experience them in game so you can see firsthand.

lol
where are you living?
New players CANT aim. For those players, are the changes nothing. I knowing about the UAC 10+Uac5 build, have some one by my self. But two AC 20, with firing at the same time, will be cause panic. Thats a big punch into the face by player who can aim. incl. the 2 Shells thing. And that are definetly not the new players.
Also have MANY of the experienced players, secondary accounts for Tier 5 games!
What do you think, what happens, if such a player is going with this changes into a tier 5 Battles? You dont have be a genius to answering this question. The old players will be kill every new player before they knew whats going on.

cougurt, on 02 April 2021 - 05:03 PM, said:

or you could just use dual heavy gauss and dish out heatless 50 damage alphas.

the average TTK may drop slightly, but only as a result of currently weak weapons/builds being made stronger, which doesn't favor experienced players more than anyone else.

YES, I can use dual Gauss. Thats what i mean. I CAN use dual gauss. The new players dont.

[Krasnopesky]

Kray76, on 02 April 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

lol
where are you living?
New players CANT aim. For those players, are the changes nothing. I knowing about the UAC 10+Uac5 build, have some one by my self. But two AC 20, with firing at the same time, will be cause panic. Thats a big punch into the face by player who can aim. incl. the 2 Shells thing. And that are definetly not the new players.
Also have MANY of the experienced players, secondary accounts for Tier 5 games!
What do you think, what happens, if such a player is going with this changes into a tier 5 Battles? You dont have be a genius to answering this question. The old players will be kill every new player before they knew whats going on.

YES, I can use dual Gauss. Thats what i mean. I CAN use dual gauss. The new players dont.

Are you referring to two clan AC20s firing at the same time? That weapon system will be improved, but it will still not be able to compete with many other options in the game in terms of killing efficiency. UAC builds will still be far better at destroying Mechs than 2x cAC20 will be.

IS AC20s still have their ghost heat and the heat buff we gave them will not be great enough to make a massive difference when firing two. Again these weapons will not be as strong as UAC or LBX10 boats.

As for the "where I am living" part, I am 'living' in a place where I have done a lot of research and testing of these changes and have already gathered a lot of positive feedback from them. I live in a place where I care deeply about this game and want it to be successful, a bit part of which is gaining and retaining new players.

Do I think all these changes will be perfect and not need fine tuning? Of course not, no system is perfect. Do I think these changes will result in more viable weapon systems for people of all skill levels and more fun as a result? Yes I do.

[Scout Derek]

Kray76, on 02 April 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

lol
where are you living?
New players CANT aim. For those players, are the changes nothing. I knowing about the UAC 10+Uac5 build, have some one by my self. But two AC 20, with firing at the same time, will be cause panic. Thats a big punch into the face by player who can aim. incl. the 2 Shells thing. And that are definetly not the new players.
Also have MANY of the experienced players, secondary accounts for Tier 5 games!
What do you think, what happens, if such a player is going with this changes into a tier 5 Battles? You dont have be a genius to answering this question. The old players will be kill every new player before they knew whats going on.

Alot of people can't aim in this game. Velocity changes make it easier to hit targets, if that wasn't evident enough. Makes it easier for newer and "older" players to hit their targets. Everyone will be on the same playing field.

I'm also irritated by the response of

Quote

eXpErIeNcEd PlAyErS hAvE aN AdVaNtAgE

or

Quote

eXpErIeNcEd PlAyErS wIlL kNoW wHaT tO dO bEfOrE aNyOnE eLsE

Like, that is legitimately a no brainer experienced people will adapt quicker to new changes than casual or people who are slower to learn these changes, that's why we have websites like GRIMMECHS to help inform said people to learn decent builds for mechs they may potentially own and use in the future.

We aren't trying to hide our knowledge of the game, hell, alot of the times Ash, Bowser, Stim, me, and a few others are always happy to answer questions based on builds, sharing our knowledge of the game, so that people like YOU, can play it better, and enjoy it more. If that isn't enough aside from the giveaways, the grouping up of people with lesser skill, than I don't know what is.

[Heavy Money]

Kray76, on 02 April 2021 - 05:12 PM, said:

lol
where are you living?
New players CANT aim.

I could aim just fine as a new player. New to this game doesn't mean new to shooters.