140 replies to this topic

[JimHatama]

Great light mech nerf that nobody asked for. Im pretty sure this gulag guys like to play assaults and kill things fast with lasers, so we have TTK decrease and heavy/assaults buffs. Like light mechs were dominating the battlefield yeah, right.

[pattonesque]

JimHatama, on 04 April 2021 - 08:29 AM, said:

Great light mech nerf that nobody asked for. Im pretty sure this gulag guys like to play assaults and kill things fast with lasers, so we have TTK decrease and heavy/assaults buffs. Like light mechs were dominating the battlefield yeah, right.

With the exception of the Flea which is getting very slightly larger, every light in the game is either staying the same size or getting smaller. The weapons changes will also allow for certain chassis like the Firestarter to have effective loadouts once again

[FupDup]

pattonesque, on 04 April 2021 - 09:24 AM, said:

With the exception of the Flea which is getting very slightly larger, every light in the game is either staying the same size or getting smaller. The weapons changes will also allow for certain chassis like the Firestarter to have effective loadouts once again

How do the weapon changes help the FS9? The Wolfhound can also carry similar energy loadouts with better hitboxes and armor quirks (quirk changes are still to be determined?). Both mechs are getting scaled to 87% size so it doesn't gain any advantage on that front either.

And as I said before, the heavies and assaults are also getting shrunken down and they're going to be made more agile so it will be harder to evade their firing arc. I'm not saying the sky is falling just yet, but there is certainly as chance that it might.

[East Indy]

FupDup, on 04 April 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

How do the weapon changes help the FS9? The Wolfhound can also carry similar energy loadouts with better hitboxes and armor quirks (quirk changes are still to be determined?). Both mechs are getting scaled to 87% size so it doesn't gain any advantage on that front either.

Yeah, the Firestarter's problems aren't loadouts at all. It's a profoundly easy, weak target. If PGI had spent 2 hours of work at any point over the past 3 years to add defensive quirks similar to the Wolfhound, we'd see more people than Jman dropping in the 'Mech.

Going back to our exchange in the intel thread, you were right on Cauldron quirk proposals. They're broad-brush and need a lot of detail work to reach the stated goal of "giving every variant a reason to exist and worth owning."

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

Samial, on 04 April 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

MWO just needs less meta and more fun..

Define meta? As I see it the Cauldron's goal with raising up the underperforming weapons is to make the dominant meta weaker by having other options be more competitive. Sure in practice TTK will be reduced but that will be more due to builds people previously played being improved from the buffs, not the meta getting stronger.

In fact I'd go far as to say that this patch aims to make the game more fun, because not only will weapons feel better to use because of buffs but having a greater variety of viable weapons will allow more options when mechlabbing. Its doing exactly what you want, reducing the power of the meta by bringing the underperformers up and adding more fun by making more weapons enjoyable to use and allowing greater player expression through the mechlab.

[Antares102]

Samial, on 04 April 2021 - 07:04 AM, said:

MWO just needs less meta and more fun..

Fun is subjective and believe me you are also having your own meta in a way.

First of all everybody plays for fun, and nobody (except for PGI) plays MWO to earn a living.
Second, many people I encountered that say they "play for fun" just use that as an excuse because
they cannot compete due to their ineptness.

Play-for-fun people also want to win once in a while and they are just as proud if they did the most damage in a match or the most kills. But when Play-for-fun people with their trash builds encounter folks that put thought into their builds and effort into their gaming skills what happens? While claiming they play for fun and dont care about meta suddenly they have no fun when they lose EVERY time and then start to complain that things need to get nerfed or the good players use cheats/hacks instead of improving themselves.

Edited by Antares102, 04 April 2021 - 10:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Just wanna point out that the play-for-fun and play-to-win dichotomy is weird. Comp players aren't trying to make themselves bored of the game. They just have fun in a different way. And of course most of the play-for-fun people probably enjoy winning more than losing most of the time (outside of boring stomp/cap wins or hard-fought close losses).

There are far better criticisms to make of the proposed changes than that (i.e. see my posts in this thread).

Edited by FupDup, 04 April 2021 - 10:33 AM.

[YueFei]

FupDup, on 04 April 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

And as I said before, the heavies and assaults are also getting shrunken down and they're going to be made more agile so it will be harder to evade their firing arc. I'm not saying the sky is falling just yet, but there is certainly as chance that it might.

I think the biggest proposed increases in agility are in accel/decel. Although there's improvements in twist-rate / turn-rate as well, these are more modest, percentage-wise.

But this is indeed a valid concern, and one area to keep an eye on going forward.

I will re-iterate that trying to balance the game so that Lights can stay out of the firing arc of heavies/assaults is not a good approach, because even if you can make that work 1v1, the game is 12v12, and heavies/assaults can cover each other. So even were it balanced so that a perfectly-driven Light can indefinitely stay out of the firing arc of heavies/assaults, that won't actually make Lights as valuable as the bigger robots.

I think a better goal is to make sure that Lights (and Mediums) have the agility to poke from off-angles and get back to cover fast enough before a heavy/assault can retaliate, even with a snapshot. E.g., you poke from 45+ degrees off-angle, and with human reflexes combined with leg-turn and twist, a Heavy or Assault will not be able swing their guns in-line with you before you fade back again.

With the right combination of accel/decel for Lights, turn-rate / twist-rate for Heavies and Assaults, and projectile velocities, I think this can be achieved. Light mech pilots using lasers might find themselves having to make trade-offs in burn-time versus risk (as in, ducking away before their own full burn is completed in order to avoid retaliation), but I think that's fair.

Edited by YueFei, 04 April 2021 - 11:22 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 04 April 2021 - 10:33 AM, said:

Just wanna point out that the play-for-fun and play-to-win dichotomy is weird. Comp players aren't trying to make themselves bored of the game. They just have fun in a different way. And of course most of the play-for-fun people probably enjoy winning more than losing most of the time (outside of boring stomp/cap wins or hard-fought close losses).

There are far better criticisms to make of the proposed changes than that (i.e. see my posts in this thread).

Spoiler

Y E O N N E, on 20 March 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

The panel in the Gulag that makes the editorial decisions is composed of high-end players, it's true. Some can even be fairly abrasive. But if you have a case, and you can convincingly articulate that case, then your case will not be written off. That does not necessarily mean your proposal will be incorporated as submitted, as often there will be a compromise because there are many differences of opinion even within the panel.

The6thMessenger, on 20 March 2021 - 03:46 PM, said:

I'll be the first to say i'm not above toxic behavior. I try to get above it, but it just seeps in eventually. Hell, I'm argumentative as ****.

I honestly don't know the gulag as a whole, I only know a few. But I agree that having the revitalization effort having the face of someone you loathe is going to cause some resistance. Don't get me wrong, again I don't know the names of ALL those involved in the gulag.

I remember that there's this comp guy that told me "I should have legged you", just because I happen to push further than him with my 8x SRM6 Pakhet. He's disappointed that "he's first", nevermind that going under and around to the rear of the Viridian Bog already was my direction, and he was just faster. And when I started my surprise attack from rear to brawl, I figure he didn't do as well when I ******* killed it.

I called him out on the forums -- granted I shouldn't have done that, should have let him go -- but they straight up just defended the other guy. I was just a nobody, and he's the comp so they trust him better.

Yes, not ALL, and i personally don't know ALL of them. I try to look past that and just judge the content of their points and statements, but I can't help to think back and just see just that.

That is forever the stain of Comps to my eyes, that they are douches entitled to good score.

While I agree with many of the gulag changes and some of their philosophy, looking back, I can see the selfish elitist cronyism that MIGHT seep through.

The reality is that it's really more for the high-end players dictating what the end result of the gulag cauldron balance would be, regardless of their claim of having some low-end players there. While I don't agree with TT MechDads, I could see why they would feel powerless and frustrated.

But my experience with A comp player, and SOME apparently even defended them for it like cronies, just stuck with me. There is this entitlement to some that they "should have legged me" just because I happen to cockblock him on otherwise good scores.

If some were willing to condone basically griefing if they didn't get their way, you should be able to imagine my concern to their idea of "fun".

I have my fair share criticisms of the values, there are those that I agree, but if nothing else, it's already going to get implemented into the game, and that's that.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 April 2021 - 11:29 AM.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 04 April 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

Spoiler

I have my fair share criticisms of the values, there are those that I agree, but if nothing else, it's already going to get implemented into the game, and that's that.

But my experience with A comp player, and SOME apparently even defended them for it, just stuck with me. There is this entitlement to some that they "should have legged me" just because I happen to {LT-MOB-25}-block him on otherwise good scores.

If some were willing to condone basically griefing, you should be able to imagine my concern to their idea of "fun".

When I said "different kind of fun" I was referring to a more high-stakes-sweaty-palms-uber-coordinated kind of thing, not griefing. I'd call that a douchebag behavior more than a comp behavior (griefing is not exclusive to any skill level).

[East Indy]

Also re: lights — one or both teams frequently dropping with 5 assaults and 3 heavies is a big suppressant to performance. Matches with better class distribution play differently.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 04 April 2021 - 11:27 AM, said:

When I said "different kind of fun" I was referring to a more high-stakes-sweaty-palms-uber-coordinated kind of thing, not griefing.
I'd call that a douchebag behavior more than a comp behavior (griefing is not exclusive to any skill level).

Sure.

[Brauer]

Capt Deadpool, on 03 April 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

I am definitely aware of previous nerfs to things over the years. So psychologically, it is an unavoidable fact that gamers prefer buffs to nerfs. I get it. That's the way it is is in every game. Certainly related to some primal brain regions and Pleistocene-era evolutionary adaptations where we don't like any of our favorite toys taken away; we'd rather get new ones. It's irrational, but not unexpected. (And I am sure not a popular position to take that nerfs and buffs are equally effective tools at bringing a game into balance).

Additionally, one of the reasons the current meta weapons seem to feel 'satisfying to use' (which I do not dispute) is because everything is relative, i.e., whether people are aware of it or not (most aren't), the meta weapons are satisfying to use because they are optimal relative to so many other useless weapons. If I were to introduce a new more optimal weapon, a lighter LPL with ultra short duration and less heat, it would instantly make the current meta feel 'less satisfying.'

But all of this is neither here nor there if we don't care about TTK. I find your asserertion that 'Regarding TTK, since the top weapons are not being buffed this won't do much to impact the minimum TTK that we saw pre-patch' to be highly dubious at best, and outright malarkey at worst, good sir! (No one get your panties in a bunch please; I like Brauer, he is good people and he is smarter than most of you though you are all lovely )

What you are saying would only be true if everyone was already running those 3 or 4 meta weapon systems all the time. So in comp play, yes I am fairly confident TTK will not be changed much from what it was before the March patch. In Soupy Queue, everyone is going to be running around with shiny new buffed weapons that have been made suddenly viable, i.e., all the people playing less than what was previously considered to be optimized builds/meta weapon systems--let's say a completely arbitrary 80% of players in tiers 4-5, 70% of players in tier 3, and 60% of players in tiers 1-2--have had their effective TTK reduced. This will, overall, reduce average TTK in the game.

Now, I am adaptable: I had fun in solo queue, I have fun in soup queue, and I will be fine whether it unmerges or stays the same, and I don't have the time or energy for comp or FP. Similarly with TTK increasing it or reducing doesn't bother me one way or the other--even if changes were fairly drastic; I will adapt. However, you saying you don't want a pillow fight is a clear indication you aren't really in favor of doing to much to increase TTK (no judgment from me either way), but this seems to be PGI's stated goal. And if rescale and agility increases are more than merely modest relative to the weapon buffs, this potentially is going to have the effect of making things definitely seem more like a 'pillow fight' due to smaller hit boxes and the ability to spread more damage. I suppose you could attempt to balance the agility and rescale perfectly against the weapon buffs so TTK isn't affected. But like PGI said, TTK increase is the goal. Do you think this is the wrong path?

I disagree that the main reason the current meta weapons are satisfying is that they are relatively powerful. Certainly that is important. BUT absolute power is also important. If the top-tier meta loadout in the game took 30 volleys over 3 minutes to kill one mech and everything else took 50 volleys over 4 minutes neither option would be satisfying to use even though the meta loadout is relatively much more powerful.

Currently DHG, HPPC, and other big alpha builds are pretty satisfying to use precisely because they can open or shear off components in one shot. This gives the player immediate feedback that they just accomplished something when scoring a hit. More DPS oriented options can also be satisfying of course but players need to be able to see some impact from their actions for them to feel good.

IMO don't fit what isn't broke. IS MPLS, UAC5s, UAC10s, LBX10s, and CERPPCs are currently all fun to play in part because they can take out mechs in a reasonable amount of time. Buffing other weapons up to this level will not be a significant issue for TTK.

BTW, read that point I made about minimum TTK carefully buddy. I tried to choose my words carefully and intentionally said "minimum TTK." I do think that overall TTK is likely to drop when the patch drops as a lot of people don't run top meta all the time and so those builds will all get buffed and be more effective. BUT IS MPLs, UAC5s, UAC10s, LBX10s, and CERPPCs were already setting the minimum TTK for the most part and I don't think that's really going to change.

RE: the pillow fight issue. I think on their own an agility buff and a rescale to shrink all but the smallest mechs would each substantially increase TTK. Together I think they'll do a lot to reward good defensive play and offset weapon buffs. I would not be surprised if after an agility pass and a rescale the TTK was actually higher than is was prior to March. I also fully support agility buffs and reducing the size of many of the mechs in the game. I think more agile mechs and strong weapons would combine to provide a very satisfying gameplay experience and wouldn't result in fights feeling like a pillowfight. In fact I think it'd challenge players to approach engagements more intentionally and to hone their skills.

In short I think we're on the right path and that ideally weapon buffs, an agility pass, and a rescale would all come out together, but given PGIs resources and the constraints of the real world I get why that was never likely to happen and am excited for each step along this path.

Edited by Brauer, 04 April 2021 - 04:09 PM.

[Brauer]

Capt Deadpool, on 03 April 2021 - 02:23 PM, said:

Also, if we are looking at TTK through the lens of stomp reduction--which should possibly be one of the utmost priorities of the Cauldron of Gulag, we look at each team having 12 ticks, and understand that as a team's ticks are reduced relative to the ticks on the other team, that tick attrition rate will accelerate until it reaches zero.

I'd wager a good amount that increased TTK is positively correlated with reduced stomp rates, which is what people want. But people also don't want nerfs, they want to have their cake and smear it all over their faces too.

So if the agility and rescale aren't enough to impact TTK enough to mitigate the April Buffering, and all the future Bufferings, then I guess you can just release a patch that increases the armor/structure of every old thing also once the bufferings have been complete.

Again, this all assuming TTK increase actually does reduce stomp rates. I think there might be something to said for pillow fighting...

I think high TTK might actually be what increases stomps to a degree. I'd wager it's harder for one to two good players/plays to swing a potential stomp back in favor of the team that loses the first couple of mechs in a game where it takes a while to dispatch an opponent than one where you can take an enemy out reliably in a second or two.

As an example, if it reasonably takes me 3-4 volleys over 12-16 seconds to kill one mech and four mechs all rush me at once (and I'm going to be heat-capped at some point) it's going to be really hard to dispatch all four even if my shooting is much more accurate than theirs. Conversely, if it takes me 1 volley in 1-2 seconds to dispatch a mech then I might have a chance if my shooting is much more accurate, and if somehow I can manipulate angles to turn a 4v1 into four successive rapid-fire 1v1s.

I don't really know the answer to this, but that's my instinct, and of course even in the second scenario the player in the 4v1 faces long odds.

[pattonesque]

FupDup, on 04 April 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

How do the weapon changes help the FS9? The Wolfhound can also carry similar energy loadouts with better hitboxes and armor quirks (quirk changes are still to be determined?). Both mechs are getting scaled to 87% size so it doesn't gain any advantage on that front either.

And as I said before, the heavies and assaults are also getting shrunken down and they're going to be made more agile so it will be harder to evade their firing arc. I'm not saying the sky is falling just yet, but there is certainly as chance that it might.

Some Firestarters can run big SL/SPL builds better than the WLF

Agility buff will also help it, as its torso pitch is extraordinarily bad which tamps down on how well it can utilize its jump jets

[Mal Bolge]

Capt Deadpool, on 03 April 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

I am definitely aware of previous nerfs to things over the years. So psychologically, it is an unavoidable fact that gamers prefer buffs to nerfs. I get it. That's the way it is is in every game. Certainly related to some primal brain regions and Pleistocene-era evolutionary adaptations where we don't like any of our favorite toys taken away; we'd rather get new ones. It's irrational, but not unexpected. (And I am sure not a popular position to take that nerfs and buffs are equally effective tools at bringing a game into balance).

Additionally, one of the reasons the current meta weapons seem to feel 'satisfying to use' (which I do not dispute) is because everything is relative, i.e., whether people are aware of it or not (most aren't), the meta weapons are satisfying to use because they are optimal relative to so many other useless weapons. If I were to introduce a new more optimal weapon, a lighter LPL with ultra short duration and less heat, it would instantly make the current meta feel 'less satisfying.'

It's so refreshing to see a thinking man among the herds of sheep

[Capt Deadpool]

Brauer, on 04 April 2021 - 02:55 PM, said:

BTW, read that point I made about minimum TTK carefully buddy. I tried to choose my words carefully and intentionally said "minimum TTK."

Touche', my friend XD! Well-played. Though it still bears watching how a mass buffering affects average TTK, and average TTK was what my OP was mainly pertaining to.

And I think we are saying the same thing with regards to what makes a weapon 'satisfying' : whatever is the most powerful/effective will feel the most satisfying, essentially. And what you said with regards to extreme examples is correct: if every single thing was either nerfed into the ground or buffed to be a CS 1.6 AWP at the other end of the spectrum, zero weapons will feel very 'satisfying' relative to the others.

Brauer, on 04 April 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

I think high TTK might actually be what increases stomps to a degree. I'd wager it's harder for one to two good players/plays to swing a potential stomp back in favor of the team that loses the first couple of mechs in a game where it takes a while to dispatch an opponent than one where you can take an enemy out reliably in a second or two.

As an example, if it reasonably takes me 3-4 volleys over 12-16 seconds to kill one mech and four mechs all rush me at once (and I'm going to be heat-capped at some point) it's going to be really hard to dispatch all four even if my shooting is much more accurate than theirs. Conversely, if it takes me 1 volley in 1-2 seconds to dispatch a mech then I might have a chance if my shooting is much more accurate, and if somehow I can manipulate angles to turn a 4v1 into four successive rapid-fire 1v1s.

I don't really know the answer to this, but that's my instinct, and of course even in the second scenario the player in the 4v1 faces long odds.

I believe you could be conflating 'clutching' or 'stomp reversals' with 'stomps', my dude! Your first sentence mentions stomps, while your second sentence then mentions 'swinging potential stomps'. I'd wager that higher TTK would mitigate the need to swing anything, because things would snowball more slowly, e.g., in your example where one team is about to go up by two or three mechs (the beginning of the snowball), with higher TTK those same mechs have a couple extra seconds to get to cover, stopping this snowball before it starts. But yes you would be certainly correct that a lower TTK would be more effective at mitigating a stomp that was already in progress.

And you are 100% correct that reducing TTK will allow you or I or another relatively skilled player a higher percentage chance to win a 1v4 scenario. However, the argument is that higher TTK MAY POTENTIALLY reduce the snowball effect in the first place, before a 'clutch' is required. (I sense a TTK/stomp simulation by our simulation/modeling expert Nightbird could clear things up XD). I am not necessarily advocating for some giant TTK increase, but given that some form of increase is already apparently a stated goal of the Cauldron and also given one of primary goals of everyone who wants to improve the game should be concerned with potential ways to reduce stomps, it may be worth looking into. In any case, MWO is and has always been--by far--one of the 'pillow-fightingest' online FPS games ever

I also want to say well-done to the Cauldron of Gulag for getting PGI to do something rather than nothing; bravo! Just don't forget the lights. Also, those who hail from the 'White Sea', please don't be so shy over here. (Reddit format makes my eyes bleed, personally XD. No offense Derek XD ). Really, as ambassadors of the community, remember you have a responsibility now not just to propose balance changes to PGI, but to bring the community together. I know the brown sea may have some guys that are into lore which may not be something you are into, or a few casual players who may think every comp player is the devil, but really how hard is it to just ignore those people? That's kindergarten-level stuff And, now with this new era of PGI listening to player input, I think it would serve the game well and the community as a whole well if some of you lovely white sea folks and Cauldron of Gulag were a little less shy over here and shared more of your thoughts. High road, fellas I can already sense the game improving.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 05 April 2021 - 09:20 AM.

[Gagis]

Capt Deadpool, on 05 April 2021 - 12:27 AM, said:

Also, those who hail from the 'White Sea', please don't be so shy over here. (Reddit format makes my eyes bleed, personally XD. No offense Derek XD ). Really, as ambassadors of the community, remember you have a responsibility now not just to propose balance changes to PGI, but to bring the community together.

I'm not a cauldron contributor, but I can share some perspective. The problem is that these forums are an extremely unpleasant environment to discuss things in. The atmosphere is outright toxic and there's not even the slightest semblance of normal forum etiquette. People just spam infinite numbers of zero-content posts all threads full. I've been trying to make myself more active to counter some of the misinformation that often goes unchallenged here, and its really a rather unpleasant experience to use forums like these. Reddit isn't exactly great either, but I'd argue that MWO and the community would be better off if these forums were simply deleted.

We need a better platform. Asking someone to use the forums is just cruel.

[Capt Deadpool]

Mal Nilsum, on 04 April 2021 - 04:00 PM, said:

It's so refreshing to see a thinking man among the herds of sheep

I appreciate the sentiment, my mech brother! But I am far, far from the only one. Some of our best and brightest are working to improve the game as we speak. And do we not all start out as sheep, anyway?

But I will reveal the key for those who truly care about 'learning how to be a smarter person' (careful, this might change your entire existence as you know it, firing your bosses, and becoming rich and happy): punch yourself in the %$#&^* d!ck every single time you catch yourself caring about whether you are right or wrong even fractionally more than caring about truly understanding some aspect of reality. Then punch yourself in the nuts everytime you come to any conclusion that reveals confirmation bias.

[Capt Deadpool]

Gagis, on 05 April 2021 - 12:36 AM, said:

I'm not a cauldron contributor, but I can share some perspective. The problem is that these forums are an extremely unpleasant environment to discuss things in. The atmosphere is outright toxic and there's not even the slightest semblance of normal forum etiquette. People just spam infinite numbers of zero-content posts all threads full. I've been trying to make myself more active to counter some of the misinformation that often goes unchallenged here, and its really a rather unpleasant experience to use forums like these. Reddit isn't exactly great either, but I'd argue that MWO and the community would be better off if these forums were simply deleted.

We need a better platform. Asking someone to use the forums is just cruel.

Well then, Since PGI is listening to the Cauldron of Gulag now, I'd say all those beautiful mofos need to do now is tell PGI to add some halfway decent moderation to this place (and remove all the 10,000 useless granulated forums while they are at it) so we can have a pleasant single place for community discussion where we can all enjoy watching the new era blossom, no?

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 05 April 2021 - 12:49 AM.