140 replies to this topic

[Capt Deadpool]

Alright fellow taters and try-hards, casuals and compers,

Interesting changes projected for the April patch, to say the least. I think we can all agree that PGI doing something rather than nothing--especially anything involving input from the actual community--is a step in the right direction, yes? Good! Glad we can agree on something!

However, here are my concerns regarding what has been posted:

"... geometric re-scaling across all chassis in order to reduce the overall scale of ‘Mechs (particularly 35t+ chassis) and directly increase survivability."

1. Does this mean there shall never be a return to the glory days when most lights were not the size of mediums? Is the lowest performing, least played class being ignored yet again, ensuring most light chassis will continuuuuuue to remain useless until the eventual, inevitable cold death of the universe?? Hast the Cauldron/Gulag a dearth of actual light pilots??? ... Maybe I am overreacting, the 35 tonners actually are the most hit-box fawked of the lights...

2. We all like shiny new things. But when I see things posted like, "with the end goal of increasing TTK" alongside buffing almost everything... I haz confuse. Yes increasing agility of mechs and reducing hit boxes will increase TTK, but not not nearly so much as it would (if at all) if you are literally buffing every old thing at the same time.

Does it not seem faaaar more simple to simply nerf the 3 or 4 weapons that were deemed as the current meta, buff 2 or 3 things, make 3 or 4 net-neutral tweaks, and THEN add rescale and agility changes to ensure you are actually increasing TTK whilst simultaneously shaking up the meta and making more weapons actually viable? The entire litany of changes just reads like this to me: POWERCREEP.

3. Conspiracy time. I recall a recent dev post vowing to unmerge soup queue (please let's not rehash the pros/cons here). No mention in the sprawling April update post about this critical change which is on the minds of so many. You choose: is such topic innocently beyond the scope of the balance-oriented post, or have the powers that be realized that, 'once such a thing has been done, it can not be undone'?

What say you mechsluts, is old Deadpool off his rocker again?

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 02 April 2021 - 08:19 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

Capt Deadpool, on 02 April 2021 - 08:13 PM, said:

"... geometric re-scaling across all chassis in order to reduce the overall scale of ‘Mechs (particularly 35t+ chassis) and directly increase survivability."

1. Does this mean there shall never be a return to the glory days when most lights were not the size of mediums? Is the lowest performing, least played class being ignored yet again, ensuring most light chassis will continuuuuuue to remain useless until the eventual, inevitable cold death of the universe?? Hast the Cauldron/Gulag a dearth of actual light pilots??? ... Maybe I am overreacting, the 35 tonners actually are the most hit-box fawked of the lights...


What say you mechsluts, is old Deadpool off his rocker again?

"35t+" would include 35 tons.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 02 April 2021 - 08:24 PM.

[John Bronco]

Unless something has changed the rescale stuff in the original proposal had everything 30 tons and up getting smaller.

[PocketYoda]

You do realize lights are far to small compared to the tabletop already.. They should be getting bigger not smaller.. And Assault mechs are the ones that should be getting smaller..

An Atlas is 13 meters tall. Not 19 like here in MWO.. A commando is 8-10 meters tall.

Yu Huang = 13m Threads of ambition
Vixen under 13m Threads of ambition?
Jupiter = 13m A Call to arms
Victor = 14m lethal heritage
Hatcheman = 11m lethal heritage
Centurion 10+ meter
Firestarter = 12m Heir to the dragon
Gallowglas = 10 meter highlander gambit
Marauder =12m Thunder rift
Victor =10m? Sword and dagger
Mercenarys star; Shadow hawk =10m?
Warhammer =10m Shrapnel
Atlas =13m Shrapnel
Vindicator =9m tall (87mm LRMs -wolves on border)
Phoenix Hawk =11m lethal heritage (50 cal MG)
Goliath =nearly 12m Warrior ripost
Locust =10m Warrior coupa
Crusader =10m Assumption of risk

Mad Cat is 12m

Edited by Samial, 02 April 2021 - 08:49 PM.

[John Bronco]

Tabletop has no relevance here.

[Nightbird]

I think 30 tonners won't change in size, and everything heavier will be scaled down appropriately to them. The only question is whether 20 and 25 tons will be scaled up or not. If anyone knows better they can speak up.

In the past I did a thread with scaling based on the 25 ton commando: https://mwomercs.com...metric-scaling/

[PocketYoda]

John Bronco, on 02 April 2021 - 08:45 PM, said:

Tabletop has no relevance here.

It really does.

[Brauer]

Nerfing whatever was meta is what brought us to this place. Currently IS MPLs, UAC5s, UAC10s, LBX10s, and CERPPCs are all satisfying to use. I'd like to see other weapons buffed up to the point that they are as satisfying to use, or nearly as satisfying to use as the current top picks. I have no interest in seeing everything nerfed to the point where every engagement feels like a pillow fight.

Regarding TTK, since the top weapons are not being buffed this won't do much to impact the minimum TTK that we saw pre-patch. Overall TTK with this patch is going to be complicated because not all players run optimal builds all the time, but imo this patch just tries to put weapons that currently are not meta on a more even playing field with our current meta.

Samial, on 02 April 2021 - 08:56 PM, said:

It really does.

Gameplay over TT. If light mechs were nearly the same size as all the rest of the mechs nobody would ever run them.

[The6thMessenger]

I'm actually looking forward for the rescale. But I think that the April patch is just equipments.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Samial, on 02 April 2021 - 08:42 PM, said:

You do realize lights are far to small compared to the tabletop already.. They should be getting bigger not smaller.. And Assault mechs are the ones that should be getting smaller..

An Atlas is 13 meters tall. Not 19 like here in MWO.. A commando is 8-10 meters tall.

Yu Huang = 13m Threads of ambition
Vixen under 13m Threads of ambition?
Jupiter = 13m A Call to arms
Victor = 14m lethal heritage
Hatcheman = 11m lethal heritage
Centurion 10+ meter
Firestarter = 12m Heir to the dragon
Gallowglas = 10 meter highlander gambit
Marauder =12m Thunder rift
Victor =10m? Sword and dagger
Mercenarys star; Shadow hawk =10m?
Warhammer =10m Shrapnel
Atlas =13m Shrapnel
Vindicator =9m tall (87mm LRMs -wolves on border)
Phoenix Hawk =11m lethal heritage (50 cal MG)
Goliath =nearly 12m Warrior ripost
Locust =10m Warrior coupa
Crusader =10m Assumption of risk

Mad Cat is 12m

Whereby the information in the novels should be used with caution, Warhammer 10m ...? to the cockpit? Shoulder? according to my sources with rocket launcher 12m and the shadow hawk (dougram) is 9.63 according to dougram high and with the Time the Atlas blow up from 13m to 16m in the BT universe .

1 TT level=6m ...2 Levels give the mechs full cover (ok by Atlas now 3 levels?)

https://www.mahq.net...ram/dougram.htm

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 03 April 2021 - 01:06 AM.

[EnochsBook]

Samial, on 02 April 2021 - 08:42 PM, said:

An Atlas is 13 meters tall. Not 19 like here in MWO.. A commando is 8-10 meters tall.
Yu Huang = 13m Threads of ambition
Vixen under 13m Threads of ambition?
Jupiter = 13m A Call to arms
Victor = 14m lethal heritage
Hatcheman = 11m lethal heritage
Centurion 10+ meter
Firestarter = 12m Heir to the dragon
Gallowglas = 10 meter highlander gambit
Marauder =12m Thunder rift
Victor =10m? Sword and dagger

etc...

If you genuinely believe that a Centurion or a Vindicator should be as tall as a Victor, then I don't know what to tell you.
Also, the fact that you have several different measurements for some of the mechs and that none of them appear to be exact or set in stone makes me think that it would probably be best if we left lore sizes where they belong... In the lore, and not in a PvP shooter.

Edited by EnochsBook, 03 April 2021 - 01:47 AM.

[Meep Meep]

This is a real time first person shooter and TT rules don't really apply other than a general guide. One of the biggest issues with early balance was trying to shoehorn in TT mechanics and it just didn't work. As was said earlier gameplay over blindly following lore.

[Gagis]

The novels are loosely based on the board game, and the board game and its record sheets and rulebooks are the only authoritative source of lore. Don't rely on the novels.

The board game doesn't really care about mech sizes. The miniatures are very inconsistently scaled since it really doesn't matter and there doesn't seem to be much of a consensus other than that mechs aren't supposed to be the size of very tall buildings like they are in MWO and instead be close to the sizes of conventional vehicles and small buildings.

Nightbird's take on volumetric scaling seems good, tho I'm not sure if Commando too is too much larger than a tank is, but at least its less far off than Atlas. Both from lore AND game design principles, since these oversized mechs make using cover and terrain much harder than it should be.

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly i think lore sizes should be used as a guide post. since they are inconstant in the books/TT rules. i would honestly take the numbers from say Sarna.net and in cases were multiple sizes are given take the average between the tallest for a given chassis and the smallest. yes MWO is a shooter but without the lore and those who enjoy the universe of Battletech MWO would have died completely long ago. yes not all the TT rules fit with the shooter aspect of MWO but they shouldn't be tossed aside without consideration. same goes for querks, use the lore as a basis for querks and then go from there let the lore be the reason a mech has say range boost or an LRM spread querk. this would give each mech more flavor while still giving it a reason to be used mechanical.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 03 April 2021 - 02:17 AM.

[Antares102]

Samial, on 02 April 2021 - 08:56 PM, said:

It really does.

Oh you lore nerds you would be the first to leave if this was a genuine TT rule copy game.
Because with perfect aim you would either have a TTK equal to CoD which is like 1 sec as soon as an enemy spots you or you would complain that no matter how well you aim half your weapons won't hit or randomly hit zones all over the place.

Edited by Antares102, 03 April 2021 - 02:29 AM.

[Meep Meep]

VeeOt Dragon, on 03 April 2021 - 02:08 AM, said:

honestly i think lore sizes should be used as a guide post.

This is why I said gameplay over strict adherence to lore. You can keep the game lore friendly but it has to take a backseat to playability and balance. If you want the best TT experience in a pc game then play battletech with some mods or even mw5. But this is an arena shooter first and foremost and should be developed around that concept.

[VeeOt Dragon]

most of us Lore hounds are not saying that all the rules need to be used directly. what we want is a balance. TT doesn't directly translate so the RNG of how hits are registered in TT just wouldn't work. though if you toss out all the lore its no longer Mechwarrior and just instead another generic shooter. there is a lot in the lore that does translate and should be considered. mechs are huge multi ton war machines and should feel like it. this isn't cod and should never feel like it. just because many of us have a love of the lore doesn't mean we are wrong. mechs that feel big and heavy don't appeal to you play lights they are supposed to be quick but pay for that speed with less firepower and armor. assaults lack the speed and maneuverability but make up for it with lots of armor and firepower. its the eternal balance of 3 things firepower, maneuverability/speed, and armor.

honsetly the game should be played as a team effort with tactical play using each mech's pros and cons to its best ability. sadly in QP you rarely have that cohesion. when you do the matches are fun (nothing like a game that ends with two badly damaged mechs slugging it out or losing on kills but having a speedy light capping so you win on objective because the enemy team wasn't watching the cap meter.). when you don't its just meh. not something that will change no mater what changes they do to the mechs or equipment. (i would play more FP than QP if it wasn't a constant prebuilt stomping solo que all the time.

[Meep Meep]

I very much doubt this is going to turn into cod with robots.

Something that sticks to lore and suffers are engines. There is so much useless spam in the engine selections just so someone can clone a TT or novel build which could be trimmed out easily by removing redundant engines that weigh the same and have the same amount of sinks and open sink slots but are slower.

Edited by Meep Meep, 03 April 2021 - 02:53 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

we can only hope, i would hate to see it become just another generic twitch shooter. (take me i don't play most lights because twitching around at over 110kph gives me a headache for some reason. doesn't mean i want those mechs taken out of the game. on the opposite just because my 50 some kph assault gets left behind and torn to pieces by the light pack doesn't mean i think assaults should be moving at 90kph without paying for it by lack of firepower.) been playing for 4 years or so (not exactly sure.) if it loses that big stompy feel then i would likely stop playing.

[YouKnowNothing]

Samial, on 02 April 2021 - 08:42 PM, said:

You do realize lights are far to small compared to the tabletop already.. They should be getting bigger not smaller.. And Assault mechs are the ones that should be getting smaller..

An Atlas is 13 meters tall. Not 19 like here in MWO.. A commando is 8-10 meters tall.

Yu Huang = 13m Threads of ambition
Vixen under 13m Threads of ambition?
Jupiter = 13m A Call to arms
Victor = 14m lethal heritage
Hatcheman = 11m lethal heritage
Centurion 10+ meter
Firestarter = 12m Heir to the dragon
Gallowglas = 10 meter highlander gambit
Marauder =12m Thunder rift
Victor =10m? Sword and dagger
Mercenarys star; Shadow hawk =10m?
Warhammer =10m Shrapnel
Atlas =13m Shrapnel
Vindicator =9m tall (87mm LRMs -wolves on border)
Phoenix Hawk =11m lethal heritage (50 cal MG)
Goliath =nearly 12m Warrior ripost
Locust =10m Warrior coupa
Crusader =10m Assumption of risk

Mad Cat is 12m

"MUH LUORE" should be used for flavor, not for balance decisions.

YEET!