78 replies to this topic

[Alexander of Macedon]

I was expecting this to be fibbing about damage numbers (because it should be functionally impossible to lose PSR on a 500+ game), but to get screencaps of intentional 11v12s is something else. I suppose naming and shaming doesn't apply when you do it to yourself?

(That's not to say that the score system isn't bad, but this specific case is not a good example of why.)

[EnochsBook]

Wildstreak, on 19 April 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

[...]
I still am amazed how many are proud of Tier in a system that only rewards mega-damage and nothing else continuing to defend it on these forums due to paranoia thinking like that leprechaun mascot for the cereal.
"Oh no, the kids are after me lucky Tier marshmallows! Golden 1s, Silvery 2s, Orangey 3s, Green 4s, Blue 5s, part of a complete breakfast."

The green arrow is not a reward, and the red arrow is not a punishment.
They are assessments of your contributions to the match. They may be flawed in several ways, but they're assessments nonetheless.
The game is telling you that if you can't both capture objectives and deal damage at the same time, then you should be in a lower tier.

The reason the system rewards damage done and the reason why people tend to see it as a good metric is because at the end of the day, an MWO match has a very high chance of turning into Skirmish, no matter the game mode. This isn't me saying that's how it should be, it's just an observation. Killing enemy Mechs is almost always the fastest, safest way of winning all game modes. And in order to kill enemy Mechs, you have to deal damage, that's just it. Now again, obviously, the system could be improved, to make it more about winning and less about damage farming.
But it's interesting to see how strongly damage done seems to correlate with winning.
At the end of the day, dealing damage is the best way to win matches, who would have thunk.

[Alexander of Macedon]

EnochsBook, on 20 April 2021 - 04:33 AM, said:

But it's interesting to see how strongly damage done seems to correlate with winning.
At the end of the day, dealing damage is the best way to win matches, who would have thunk.

Man, I wish I could agree with this, but I've had too damn many matches like this


Like, it's the end of the match. My last teammate just died. I go 1v3 against most of a lance of heavies and assaults and kill all of them, leaving me open in all torsos with maybe three or four rounds left from nine or ten tons of ammo. Then a completely fresh Roughneck walks around the corner, eats my last few shots, and kills me. It literally did not matter that I did pretty close to my maximum potential damage, or that I did more damage than 8-9 of my teammates combined, we still lost.

And that's not a fluke, it happens to me, to a teammate, or to an enemy multiple times in every session I play.

The real best way to win matches is to get lucky with the matchmaker and have 3-4 competent players on your team.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 20 April 2021 - 05:32 AM.

[Mercules]

martian, on 20 April 2021 - 04:03 AM, said:

I do not think that the point of MechWarrior series of games is to stand motionless in a blinking circle or in a blinking square or to shoot some immobile HQ Truck, so you can end up the mission three minutes after being deployed.

If people play objectives instead of "Run to center of map. Shoot stuff." You won't be ABLE to stand motionless in a blinking circle or shoot some immobile HQ Truck. Playing the objective means scouting out the enemy and interfering with them while they try to do their objective while doing your own objective. The times when you see someone, "...stand motionless in a blinking circle..." what happened was that the idiots that should have been protecting the blinking circle ignored it's existance.

Mechwarrior 1: "What happen? Why we lose? Me not shoot anyone?"
Mechwarrior 2: "I no know. Why he not come lets us shoot him and go end game?"

There is Skirmish and Domination for those that like to blow the crap out of other mechs. Bump up the rewards for the other game modes. You get to vote for a game mode. Guess which ones I end up playing the most of?

The reward system also blows for mechs that backstab. Look I got sub 200 damage but 3 kills and my Elo went down. Meanwhile the guy who shot 2000 LRMs that I killed probably had a green arrow because damage is heavily weighted in this system. It's not JUST Elo, it's XP and C-Bills as well. Not that they are super important, but it's frustrating trying to grind out cash using Lights and Mediums. Which is why you see the obviously new players wandering around in Assaults where they might not want to be. Crappy Assault play, most of the time, will net them more rewards than good Light/Medium play and often Heavy play.

[ScrapIron Prime]

More games today with a Jenner. Polar Highlands Conquest... I do over 300 damage WITHOUT airstrikes, get 9+ assists, lead the team in capping time, win the game... pilot rating goes down.

Seriously... capping time needs to be worth more.

[Alexandros]

Scoring Sucks :
1. No points for objective contribution (lights on captures)
2. No points for soaking dmg (especially for the assaults that would be a great bonus)
3. No points for covering with ams/ECM your team (support mechs in general)
4. No points for Tagging/Narcing (although you get kinda payed still..)

I heard Bear Claw and Sean Lang talking about the roles of mechs in general. Let's hope scoring on each match
has a great dependency on the abilities of your chassis/objectives in the future and not how much dmg you do.

I am opposed completely to what Cauldron has changed ( they nerfed my favorite weapon for no reason and Im super pissed off ) BUT They seem to have more plans that will stack with what is currently is being changed. Maybe they will magically find a solution to the scoring (who knows) and propose to PGI? My advice is : Try to get organized with other 3 and throw yourselves in so you can partially work in case of a NASCAR (you cant change other peoples minds during a game)
If you need to drop solo then just try to relocate yourself according to the wave. Sometimes helping a fellow assault might stop the nascar cause the other sheep (I mean players) will see that you hold your position to help others. It is not guaranteed but you can use your voice to state what are you going to do.

And at the end ...does Tier even matter? the arrow up or down?
Maybe it matters for those that measure their e peens. Try to have fun and ignore the elitists. Adapt to the situation.

Edited by Alexandros, 20 April 2021 - 07:33 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Alexandros, on 20 April 2021 - 07:32 PM, said:

Scoring Sucks :
1. No points for objective contribution (lights on captures)
2. No points for soaking dmg (especially for the assaults that would be a great bonus)
3. No points for covering with ams/ECM your team (support mechs in general)
4. No points for Tagging/Narcing (although you get kinda payed still..)

Just to reply to them on current Cauldron views.

• We have no plans to alter this.
  
• We have no plans to alter this.
  
• ECM/AMS is currently being rewarded. AMS - I believe PGI plans to knock match score down as it over represents.
  
• TAG/NARC gives very solid bonuses match score and cbill wise in game.

I'm genuinly not sure what you mean about the 3/4, seems you are not totally aware of how it currently works? Or perhaps further clarification is needed on what you mean there such that I've missed the point.

[ScrapIron Prime]

justcallme A S H, on 20 April 2021 - 07:47 PM, said:

Just to reply to them on current Cauldron views.

• We have no plans to alter this.

Perhaps Cauldron should push for this, at least in Conquest mode. The game is won or lost on capture points in that mode (unlike assault where winning by base cap seems cheap) but doing so is worth no match score at all.

[justcallme A S H]

I mean they already give rewards - it is not as if they don't.

There just isn't a plan to adjust it up more than it is currently. We were working on, previous to Cauldron a Match Score fix/adjustement but Paul didn't end up going through with it - I assume because he was taken off MWO and put on the new IP project.

So yeah that kinda sucks.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

ScrapIron Prime, on 20 April 2021 - 07:55 PM, said:

Perhaps Cauldron should push for this, at least in Conquest mode. The game is won or lost on capture points in that mode (unlike assault where winning by base cap seems cheap) but doing so is worth no match score at all.

It is. My tests indicate that "First Capture" awards 6000 CBills, 80 XP and 8 points MS. Each tick of "Capturing Base" awards 100 CBills, 0 XP and 2 points MS.
Now, of course we can argue how much worth it is to a match standing in a flashing square. I personally think these values are fine.

[Alexandros]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 21 April 2021 - 12:08 AM, said:

It is. My tests indicate that "First Capture" awards 6000 CBills, 80 XP and 8 points MS. Each tick of "Capturing Base" awards 100 CBills, 0 XP and 2 points MS.
Now, of course we can argue how much worth it is to a match standing in a flashing square. I personally think these values are fine.

I was referring to Matchscore at the end of the match. A light that captured all the points in conquest but did a little or no dmg during a match in order to save their team will get an arrow "down" no matter which teams wins.
(one of the examples)

And Ash Im fully aware how system works. I am playing the same game with the rest of you. TAG/NARC is only a CBILL maker (thats why I combine it with all the mechs I can) and in my opinion doesnt do enough scorewise. Again thats my opinion I dont force it in any way. The game needs to motivate "roles" money wise and scorewise. Now it just gives disappointment.

[Gagis]

Alexandros, on 21 April 2021 - 03:08 AM, said:

I was referring to Matchscore at the end of the match. A light that captured all the points in conquest but did a little or no dmg during a match in order to save their team will get an arrow "down" no matter which teams wins.
(one of the examples)

That light left their team to fight 11vs12 and got lucky enough their team carried. If their team had not, the light would have had to fight 1v12 to keep capping, and been unable to play the objective because enemies are shooting at them.

Single mindedly focusing on the objective before enemies are being dealt with is often detrimental to winning.

[justcallme A S H]

Alexandros, on 21 April 2021 - 03:08 AM, said:

I was referring to Matchscore at the end of the match.

And Ash Im fully aware how system works. I am playing the same game with the rest of you. TAG/NARC is only a CBILL maker

It would appear you don't understand as well as you think. The following actually give match score and are not just cbill makers, they never have been.

TAG Damage.
TAG Stealth.
TAG Kill.
NARC kill.

That are also a pile of associated like a scouting/spotting assist/ECM counter etc etc. There are a few and if you chuck one weapon on, which you have to, you can then get hit+run and all manner of other ones.

[Alexandros]

Gagis, on 21 April 2021 - 03:26 AM, said:

That light left their team to fight 11vs12 and got lucky enough their team carried. If their team had not, the light would have had to fight 1v12 to keep capping, and been unable to play the objective because enemies are shooting at them.

Single mindedly focusing on the objective before enemies are being dealt with is often detrimental to winning.

What are you even talking about? Lights from both sides bolt out to capture and they meet and fight as the capture goes on. So its not a case of 11 vs 12 , it is more fluid. But sometimes the dmg is not enough to classify an "arrow up" (which is the case most complain of)
Are you telling me that focusing on the objective now is destructive for your team? There is a really big gap of understanding among people on the forums. Are we on the same frequency Gagis?

Edited by Alexandros, 21 April 2021 - 03:53 AM.

[Gagis]

Lights capping and rejoining the match early in conquest have no trouble contributing to fights and gaining score trough destroying mechs. Their arrows do not go down.

However, players who cry for objective based rewards typically are pissed that a light that tried to win trough capping instead of fighting got nothing for doing nothing. First step to winning trough obective is to take out enemies who are actively trying to stop you.

[John Bronco]

Alexandros, on 21 April 2021 - 03:53 AM, said:

Are you telling me that focusing on the objective now is destructive for your team? There is a really big gap of understanding among people on the forums. Are we on the same frequency Gagis?

Playing objectives are always secondary to fighting. They exist to get fights to happen in other areas of the map than usual, or to put pressure on the clock. Prioritizing capping is a hindrance to winning more often than not, hence why fighting is worth more score.

Put another way, the best way to play objectives is to keep the enemy from playing them by killing them.

[martian]

Mercules, on 20 April 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

If people play objectives instead of "Run to center of map. Shoot stuff." You won't be ABLE to stand motionless in a blinking circle or shoot some immobile HQ Truck. Playing the objective means scouting out the enemy and interfering with them while they try to do their objective while doing your own objective. The times when you see someone, "...stand motionless in a blinking circle..." what happened was that the idiots that should have been protecting the blinking circle ignored it's existance.

There are two basic victory conditions:
a) kill all enemy 'Mechs OR
b ) win on cap (objective destruction in case of Incursion game mode)

Both conditions are equal - there is no preferred option. Thus, it is upon the player(s) if they chose to pursue either the first or the second victory condition.

And if a player makes a poor decision - such as deciding to run to the enemy base and cap it, while the other 23 players want to fight it out - then he is essentially harming his team because the battle is not 12v12, but 11v12.

The most extreme cases are some Conquest games where I often see not one, but 4-5 friendly players running away in various directions. This makes the battle extremely one-sided (like 8v12 or so). The enemy team crushes the core of the friendly team quickly and then captures (or re-captures) every base with 2-3 'Mechs quite comfortably.

Mercules, on 20 April 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 1: "What happen? Why we lose? Me not shoot anyone?"
Mechwarrior 2: "I no know. Why he not come lets us shoot him and go end game?"

There is Skirmish and Domination for those that like to blow the crap out of other mechs.
...
You get to vote for a game mode. Guess which ones I end up playing the most of?

You are quite right. The sad fact is that the majority of MWO players wants to fight enemy 'Mechs, not cap objectives. That is why you see Skirmish most often, while Conquest and Incursion are picked up only rarely.

When it was possible to select your desired game modes, Skirmish and Assault were common while Conquest was usually unchecked. That's why PGI has forced Conquest upon the players - almost nobody wanted to play it when he could avoid it.

Mercules, on 20 April 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

Bump up the rewards for the other game modes.

To be honest, I am not quite sure that PGI should bump up the rewards for objective-based game modes.

If you cap bases and add some kills, damage and other activies, then you probably end your games with the green arrow.

If somebody prefers to cap/destroy bases and does nothing else during the mission ... well, he probably sees a lot of red arrows.

But I think it is okay.

PSR moves him to lower Tiers filled with other players who prefer to win on cap (read: stand motionless in a blinking square).
Active Light players (who do more than capping empty bases) will move up to higher Tiers. So in theory both groups of players should meet only rarely.

I think that both groups of players will be happy eventually:
a) Aggressive Light pilots will be playing games where they are expected to produce a lot of damage and kills on top of capping.
b ) Objective-driven players will be playing against similar objective-focused players on the other side.

Mercules, on 20 April 2021 - 03:02 PM, said:

The reward system also blows for mechs that backstab. Look I got sub 200 damage but 3 kills and my Elo went down. Meanwhile the guy who shot 2000 LRMs that I killed probably had a green arrow because damage is heavily weighted in this system. It's not JUST Elo, it's XP and C-Bills as well. Not that they are super important, but it's frustrating trying to grind out cash using Lights and Mediums. Which is why you see the obviously new players wandering around in Assaults where they might not want to be. Crappy Assault play, most of the time, will net them more rewards than good Light/Medium play and often Heavy play.

Yes, I agree that the rewards system rewards pure damage perhaps too much.

[Alexandros]

Gagis, on 21 April 2021 - 04:08 AM, said:

Lights capping and rejoining the match early in conquest have no trouble contributing to fights and gaining score trough destroying mechs. Their arrows do not go down.

However, players who cry for objective based rewards typically are pissed that a light that tried to win trough capping instead of fighting got nothing for doing nothing. First step to winning trough obective is to take out enemies who are actively trying to stop you.

Lights capping and rejoining the match early in conquest : >>Cap and rejoin on conquest<<. Ok now Im certain we dont play the same game...

So your method is : do some initial caps >>> get into the fight >>>survive as a light >>> and correct caps where you can - so in and out of fights and running back for caps. On a match that lasts 5 minutes with current chaotic playstyle of QP. - Even if you do that (on your "perfect playthrough" scenario) Your score would be lower from guy that went into the fight and beat the crap out of mechs while you did your initial caps.

And for the record expressing ones perspective doesnt make them automatically being crybabes. Everyone states their own experience.

[martian]

Alexandros, on 21 April 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

Lights capping and rejoining the match early in conquest : >>Cap and rejoin on conquest<<. Ok now Im certain we dont play the same game...

So your method is : do some initial caps >>> get into the fight >>>survive as a light >>> and correct caps where you can - so in and out of fights and running back for caps. On a match that lasts 5 minutes with current chaotic playstyle of QP. - Even if you do that (on your "perfect playthrough" scenario) Your score would be lower from guy that went into the fight and beat the crap out of mechs while you did your initial caps.

When piloting a Light 'Mech, one does not have to cap every single base. You just have to make sure that your team does not lose on caps, that is all.

Typically, your team usually caps two bases in the beginning, so you just have to check from time to time that the enemy team has not capped three bases.

And if you see that you are not losing caps, you can stay in combat and rack kills, damage, assists and UAV bonuses, etc.

[justcallme A S H]

Alexandros, on 21 April 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

Lights capping and rejoining the match early in conquest : >>Cap and rejoin on conquest<<. Ok now Im certain we dont play the same game...

So your method is : do some initial caps >>> get into the fight >>>survive as a light >>> and correct caps where you can - so in and out of fights and running back for caps. On a match that lasts 5 minutes with current chaotic playstyle of QP. - Even if you do that (on your "perfect playthrough" scenario) Your score would be lower from guy that went into the fight and beat the crap out of mechs while you did your initial caps.

What Gagis said is good/smart gameplay.

• Cap a point or two early. Contest if needed.
  
• Get into the fray, cause some havoc.
  
• As(if/when) needed break off and deal with caps should enemies secure 4 or 5 caps for longer than 30s.

Fact is the first 4-5mins of any Conquest game tickets are not that important except Polar as it is the only map you cannot easily control a minimum 2 cap points. It's just simple maths of how fast tickets accrue in a 3 or 4 cap scenario vs how long it'll take to de-cap once you kill the enemies.

Thus being 1 mech down who is off 'capping' when he could be contributing to the engagement in various ways aids a win far more.