167 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

pbiggz, on 07 May 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

Again missing the forest for the trees here. Nascar is a symptom of not having respawns. Put in respawns? Nascar goes away, or at least diminishes significantly.

Asking for things not on the table is only asking for disappointment...

[pbiggz]

Nightbird, on 07 May 2021 - 09:20 AM, said:

Asking for things not on the table is only asking for disappointment...

PGI's stated policy right now is that they'll do what we ask them to do. If more people make noise, this ends up being on the table. Write it off "because pgi", and then you really are asking for disappointment.

[Wildstreak]

pbiggz, on 07 May 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

Again missing the forest for the trees here. Nascar is a symptom of not having respawns. Put in respawns? Nascar goes away, or at least diminishes significantly.

Totally completely incorrect.

[Anjian]

Wildstreak, on 08 May 2021 - 04:38 AM, said:

Totally completely incorrect.

A flanking wing can get caught between what they are trying to outflank and a respawning second wave.

[Brizna]

Nascar does happen with respawns but it does happen a lot less because of what Anjian mentioned just above as anyone who play FW knows. It also tends to be more thoughtful and limited than in regular QP.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

Brizna, on 10 May 2021 - 12:32 AM, said:

Nascar does happen with respawns but it does happen a lot less because of what Anjian mentioned just above as anyone who play FW knows. It also tends to be more thoughtful and limited than in regular QP.

true, but .. A LOT of 'nascar not happening in FW' can be attributed to the teamwork that is bread&butter in that mode (having a plan, working in waves, you know the drill..)
-whereas a lot of the nascar in QP can be attributed to the natural lack of teamplay (no plan at work, everybody looking out for themselves, nascar is quite the 'safest bet' there);

[Anjian]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 10 May 2021 - 02:47 AM, said:

true, but .. A LOT of 'nascar not happening in FW' can be attributed to the teamwork that is bread&butter in that mode (having a plan, working in waves, you know the drill..)
-whereas a lot of the nascar in QP can be attributed to the natural lack of teamplay (no plan at work, everybody looking out for themselves, nascar is quite the 'safest bet' there);

There is more teamwork in the QP of this game thanks to the built in chat, whereas there are team shooting games with respawns and completely zero to negative teamwork---even player bases from different countries that no habla ingles---leaving you with all instinct playing, and yet these games don't nascar at all.

[Wildstreak]

Anjian, on 09 May 2021 - 07:36 PM, said:

A flanking wing can get caught between what they are trying to outflank and a respawning second wave.

Completely ignores the serious problems of respawns

Brizna, on 10 May 2021 - 12:32 AM, said:

Nascar does happen with respawns but it does happen a lot less because of what Anjian mentioned just above as anyone who play FW knows. It also tends to be more thoughtful and limited than in regular QP.

Nope.

NASCAR happens almost never in FW due to the main mode being Attack the Big Fat Base that you really cannot NASCAR around.
FW also has the problems of spawn camping and long dragged out matches typical with respawns plus it also increases the chance of more reckless player behavior.

[Anjian]

Wildstreak, on 10 May 2021 - 04:51 AM, said:

Completely ignores the serious problems of respawns

And what's that?

Quote

Nope.

NASCAR happens almost never in FW due to the main mode being Attack the Big Fat Base that you really cannot NASCAR around.
FW also has the problems of spawn camping and long dragged out matches typical with respawns plus it also increases the chance of more reckless player behavior.

Try other games --- very successful ones in fact --- where there is respawns but not spawn camping and long dragged out matches. Let me see if you have figured out the mechanisms in those games that stop spawn camping and long dragged out matches.

Edited by Anjian, 10 May 2021 - 05:15 AM.

[pbiggz]

Wildstreak, on 08 May 2021 - 04:38 AM, said:

Totally completely incorrect.

Care to elaborate or are you just going to poopoo on suggestions because change is scary?

[R Valentine]

pbiggz, on 07 May 2021 - 09:17 AM, said:

Again missing the forest for the trees here. Nascar is a symptom of not having respawns. Put in respawns? Nascar goes away, or at least diminishes significantly.

Lack of respawns make nascar possible, but it doesn't create it. You can't nascar in FW because doing so puts the spawn at your back, which is an instant loss scenario. Fresh enemies come in and one shot you from behind, and the nascar is over before it began.

Nascar is almost purely a symptom of player behavior. Poorly places spawns make nascar appealing because you can rush the lance at the back of the race with impunity. You know all other enemies are moving in the opposite direction, so you can dive with no fear. I'd be you a million dollars I could change nascar in a week by simply altering the spawns, or at the very least I could reverse its direction. Don't dangle one lance to be easily rushed down from the start and nascar becomes a lot less viable.

[pbiggz]

Kiran Yagami, on 10 May 2021 - 06:57 AM, said:

Lack of respawns make nascar possible, but it doesn't create it. You can't nascar in FW because doing so puts the spawn at your back, which is an instant loss scenario. Fresh enemies come in and one shot you from behind, and the nascar is over before it began.

Nascar is almost purely a symptom of player behavior. Poorly places spawns make nascar appealing because you can rush the lance at the back of the race with impunity. You know all other enemies are moving in the opposite direction, so you can dive with no fear. I'd be you a million dollars I could change nascar in a week by simply altering the spawns, or at the very least I could reverse its direction. Don't dangle one lance to be easily rushed down from the start and nascar becomes a lot less viable.

Yeah but the player behaviour is caused by lack of respawns. When you only have a single chance to perform, any single mistake could leave you spectating the rest of the match, and leave your team one man down. Because of that, balling up instantly because your best, and often only option, with the teams orbitting and poking one another until someone makes that first mistake, before they close in.

With respawns, players will be more free to be creative in their strategies. You'll see parts of maps that usually see little combat actually getting used because going out there wont spell an instant loss for the rest of your team. If nascars do happen, and im sure they will, they'll constantly readjust and shift direction when they slam into respawning waves of fresh mechs. Posting up somewhere and turtling will become a more attractive strategy. Playing the objectives will become a real option.

[R Valentine]

pbiggz, on 10 May 2021 - 07:03 AM, said:

Yeah but the player behaviour is caused by lack of respawns. When you only have a single chance to perform, any single mistake could leave you spectating the rest of the match, and leave your team one man down. Because of that, balling up instantly because your best, and often only option, with the teams orbitting and poking one another until someone makes that first mistake, before they close in.

With respawns, players will be more free to be creative in their strategies. You'll see parts of maps that usually see little combat actually getting used because going out there wont spell an instant loss for the rest of your team. If nascars do happen, and im sure they will, they'll constantly readjust and shift direction when they slam into respawning waves of fresh mechs. Posting up somewhere and turtling will become a more attractive strategy. Playing the objectives will become a real option.

Player behavior is player behavior. You can't fix people. The best you can do is make their current behavior non-conducive to winning. Altering the spawns can do that. It might not alter their behavior in dramatic ways, but it'll do something. I don't know why you're so hung up on respawns, because it'll never happen. We have FW already. If you want respawns so much, jump in that queue. Your problem is solved. QP will never be anything more than it is in that respect.

[pbiggz]

Kiran Yagami, on 10 May 2021 - 07:09 AM, said:

Player behavior is player behavior. You can't fix people. The best you can do is make their current behavior non-conducive to winning. Altering the spawns can do that. It might not alter their behavior in dramatic ways, but it'll do something. I don't know why you're so hung up on respawns, because it'll never happen. We have FW already. If you want respawns so much, jump in that queue. Your problem is solved. QP will never be anything more than it is in that respect.

I don't agree. At this particular juncture PGI is pretty open to doing whatever we say, so if enough people say they want respawns, we'll get them. Acting like we'll never get them *just because pgi* is a non-starter.

Edited by pbiggz, 10 May 2021 - 07:38 AM.

[Anjian]

pbiggz, on 10 May 2021 - 07:03 AM, said:

Yeah but the player behaviour is caused by lack of respawns. When you only have a single chance to perform, any single mistake could leave you spectating the rest of the match, and leave your team one man down. Because of that, balling up instantly because your best, and often only option, with the teams orbitting and poking one another until someone makes that first mistake, before they close in.

With respawns, players will be more free to be creative in their strategies. You'll see parts of maps that usually see little combat actually getting used because going out there wont spell an instant loss for the rest of your team. If nascars do happen, and im sure they will, they'll constantly readjust and shift direction when they slam into respawning waves of fresh mechs. Posting up somewhere and turtling will become a more attractive strategy. Playing the objectives will become a real option.

You have to make Playing the Objectives, the only option

There are three elements that makes objective play possible.

The objectives itself as the primary focus of the game. Proper rules for the game mode, well designed maps with strategic placements of capture points.

Second is Respawns. The question is whether you prefer unlimited, dropdeck selection, and dropdeck limits, such as the number of mechs allowed by the dropdeck.

And the third factor, which people hardly speak about but is necessary for objective game reinforcement --- is a Timer

The timer gives the match a limited time. Let's say 10 minutes.

You will be forced to rush the objectives as quickly as possible. Holding the objectives for the longest time will give you the most points in the team bar, ala MWO Conquest, but this is common in all shooters as the Domination mode.

Other team will try to retake the objectives. This creates waves of both offense and defense on both sides, while teams are replenished with respawns.

Regardless of how many mechs are killed on each side, the team with the most points when the timer goes BZZZ, wins. The losing team can have still have more mechs in the field, got more damage and more kills, but its always the points that makes the win. Teams that are strengthwise inferior but is more goal focused and coordinated, can eke wins out from more powerful teams.

This answers the question what about spawn camping? Spawn camping in this format is history --- if you are a spawn camper and wants to play that scenario, you are dead weight for the team. Besides, you are more likely to get killed anyway by the opposing team. You cannot waste your time in a match with a short timer that is not in the focus of your objectives. Spawn camping will get weeded out by the social group dynamic.

Players that want to camp, snipe and play it safe, these players are also dead weight. This format of game requires you to be aggressive. Even if the team is a PUG and does not communicate with each other, every one needs to be unanimously aggressive.

KDRs don't matter, Players will eject and suicide damaged mechs for new ones when the situation fits.

The concept of decoy and sacrifice --- luring the enemy to aggro you, while teammates snatch the objectives --- will also come into play.

The problem of FW is that its one way, one team is defending and another is offending. A proper objective game mode should have both teams in the offense and defense at the same time, with strategic capture points in the middle. Another problem of FW is that its Clan vs. Inner Sphere, not Clan/IS vs. Clan/IS mixes.

[pbiggz]

In terms of the exact implementation of respawns, my guess is dropdecks would be the least work, and with drop decks you wouldn't need the matchmaker to balance by weight anymore; players would just bring x tons into the match, same as faction play.

As far as the timer goes, matches already have a 15 minute timer. Its rarely hit because we play 2 or 3 different flavours of skirmish. The game modes as they exist would all be vastly improved by adding dropdeck respawns in; doubly so, if they rotate the objective points and spawns to different locations each match; perhaps each map could have a set of 3 or 4 different spawns/objectives, with the game selecting at launch which ones you will get.

[Anjian]

pbiggz, on 10 May 2021 - 07:50 AM, said:

In terms of the exact implementation of respawns, my guess is dropdecks would be the least work, and with drop decks you wouldn't need the matchmaker to balance by weight anymore; players would just bring x tons into the match, same as faction play.

As far as the timer goes, matches already have a 15 minute timer. Its rarely hit because we play 2 or 3 different flavours of skirmish. The game modes as they exist would all be vastly improved by adding dropdeck respawns in; doubly so, if they rotate the objective points and spawns to different locations each match; perhaps each map could have a set of 3 or 4 different spawns/objectives, with the game selecting at launch which ones you will get.

Indeed. The things I am looking for are pieces that are already in the game. We only need to take and rearrange the pieces.

The dropdeck system from FW.

For the objective mode, we use Conquest/Domination. Both sides offend/defend, not one side offend one side defend. Both sides use the typical PUG mix of Clan/IS.

We can use both maps like Alpine and Polar and the FW maps like Sulphurous. Mark out the capture points. Maps can have variations of capture point sets, so you don't need to repeat the same map/capture point set. This allows us to use more of the map space. I think its possible to work out even the smaller maps.

The matchmaker will be based on player league rank alone.

I don't think 12 x 12 is necessary. 8 x 8 with respawns, with a dropdeck of 4 mechs is enough. Less crowding, less lag, and it allows for more time in the match.

We can start with 15 minutes, but consider experimenting cutting match times to 10 or 12 minutes. I tend to prefer faster matches, so players can return to the matchmaking queue to keep the queue filled, and players get more rewards from a higher match turnover allowing for more faster progression.

At the start of the match, the teams have to spread out to capture the points with the timer ticking. Forming a large murder mob will work against the objectives. Once a point is captured, you rush to capture the other points, skirmishing with opposing teams along the way.

I am considering that the point of capture becomes a new spawn point. This can be used to call a drop ship to drop your assault mechs to defend the point.

[Homer The Thief]

In my opinion, skillgap is killing the game and nascar is a symptom.
The Professional nascarers of which I am one, nascar because the other guys cannot stop them//us/nascar/nascaring.
If they could stop nascarers from nascaring then the nascarers would do something else to end you/them/they instead of nascar.

Simple
imo

Edited by Homer The Thief, 10 May 2021 - 10:24 AM.

[pbiggz]

Homer The Thief, on 10 May 2021 - 09:48 AM, said:

In my opinion, skillgap is killing the game and nascar is a symptom.
The Professional nascarers of which I am one, nascar because the other guys cannot stop them//us/nascar/nascaring.
If they could stop nascarers from nascaring then the nascarers would do something else to end you/them/they instead of nascar.

Simple
imo

This is not a thing

Edited by pbiggz, 10 May 2021 - 12:26 PM.

[Homer The Thief]

pbiggz, on 10 May 2021 - 12:26 PM, said:

This is not a thing

Why not, please explain better.
Why is it not a thing?

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6396222

In comp their are no respawns and no nascar, due to smaller skill gaps imo as in comps they have matchmaking,
Div 1,Div2, Div C, etc

So imo it's not really about respawns as you seem to be fixated on, other wise NASCAR would be in comp games too due to lack of respawns.

Edited by Homer The Thief, 10 May 2021 - 12:43 PM.