52 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

HammerMaster, on 30 April 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

SO..Because of scumbag synergy builds, builds that use one as on a light mech get stuffed. This is the BS that caused Gauss Charge.

Gauss charge is not an accurate comparison because Gauss charge makes the weapon feel unique compared to others. Before the charge was added it was just an AC/15. It's not purely a buff or nerf measure.

[Alex Morgaine]

It's a thin razor being walked, personally I'd say link ghost heat so 1ac20+2snub works as well as snub x3 but more then that should = spooky heat before screwing with weapon damage. Or...
... >:3
Make the snubs fire cluster like energy lb10

[FupDup]

Alex Morgaine, on 30 April 2021 - 03:06 PM, said:

It's a thin razor being walked, personally I'd say link ghost heat so 1ac20+2snub works as well as snub x3 but more then that should = spooky heat before screwing with weapon damage. Or...
... >:3
Make the snubs fire cluster like energy lb10

The issue with ghost linking is that it would go off of the AC/20's current limit of 2, meaning that AC/20 + SNPPC would trigger GH. Even if you raised AC/20 GH to 2, then AC/20 + 2 SNPPC would still get hit with paranormal heat. You'd have to put the AC/20 cap at 3 for AC/20 + 2 SNPPC to not get a spooky penalty, and that would probably be a bit excessive of a limit for any weapon to have (60 PPFLD).

Ultimately, this leaves the two options of either putting the SNPPC cap back at 2 or nerfing the SNPPC's damage (like what Kras said that they're going to try).

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2021 - 03:11 PM.

[HammerMaster]

FupDup, on 30 April 2021 - 02:51 PM, said:

Gauss charge is not an accurate comparison because Gauss charge makes the weapon feel unique compared to others. Before the charge was added it was just an AC/15. It's not purely a buff or nerf measure.

You sure about that? Feel?
It punished anyone who used a single. And they never did minimum range properly. I was very effective snap shooting a single but because pinpoint was NEVER addressed properly and linking happened, singles and smaller rigs suffered.
Feel? I'm disgusted by this analogy.

Edited by HammerMaster, 30 April 2021 - 03:16 PM.

[Goedmaker]

I don't think snubs would be a problem if they were limited to firing only two without ghost heat. That's the only thing that I've found annoying in matches, is the 50+ damage alpha strikes people are running so commonly now because you can now pair 3x snubs or regular ppcs with other ballistics for pinpoint burst damage that's significantly higher than what used to be run normally. The light mechs that are running one or two snubs are hardly op.

[Krasnopesky]

HammerMaster, on 30 April 2021 - 02:48 PM, said:

SO..Because of scumbag synergy builds, builds that use one as on a light mech get stuffed. This is the BS that caused Gauss Charge.

Two or three LPPCs function much better compared to one Snub Nose on Light Mechs.

I am personally looking forward to the changes. I find snubs can be oppressive with all the pinpoint (do not read oppressive as OP) but struggle in their damage output. I believe medium Mechs will function very well dealing 33 damage per alpha with triple snubs and Light mechs will work well with mixes of snubs and LPPC.

[HammerMaster]

Krasnopesky, on 30 April 2021 - 03:52 PM, said:

Two or three LPPCs function much better compared to one Snub Nose on Light Mechs.

I am personally looking forward to the changes. I find snubs can be oppressive with all the pinpoint (do not read oppressive as OP) but struggle in their damage output. I believe medium Mechs will function very well dealing 33 damage per alpha with triple snubs and Light mechs will work well with mixes of snubs and LPPC.

Understood but how many IS lights can run 3 LPPC and OTHER weapons? Not just one trick ponies?

[FupDup]

HammerMaster, on 30 April 2021 - 04:00 PM, said:

Understood but how many IS lights can run 3 LPPC and OTHER weapons? Not just one trick ponies?

Urbies (or other down-engine'd lights) can bring a few MGs or Small Lasers with the LPPCs, which isn't much admittedly.

[The6thMessenger]

feeWAIVER, on 30 April 2021 - 11:57 AM, said:

So they are gonna make them splash? Doesn't that kinda defeat the point?

I always felt that the point of SNPPC is the brawling PPC where the PPC lost it's long-range prowess for it's ability to contend to short-range targets, as in no minimum range and kinda cold.

I'm fine with the splash damage though. It's less kill-y, but would likely still pull the same damage.

Alex Morgaine, on 30 April 2021 - 03:06 PM, said:

Make the snubs fire cluster like energy lb10

LBXs can essentially deal all their damage at a component as if pin-point at close range, while would sandblast targets far-away. That means it's not going to solve the problem of snubs that much if it has like basically LB10X level spread.

The splash-damage would provide consistent spread damage regardless of distance.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 April 2021 - 04:08 PM.

[Matthew Ace]

I am opposed to the idea of making snubs splash - I suspect it'll quickly eliminate its use, even if overall dama0ge has increased. And it will be akin to PGI overreacting on certain features (think 90t+ hoverjet adjustment from years ba0ck).

The problem here is its synergy with AC20 and not its standalone use, isn't it?

For an Alpha of 2 AC20 + 3 Snub Without heat quirks, it's 31 heat + ghost heat

Wouldn't dropping GH thresholdfor Snubs back to 2 and/or raising heat to 8 be a better starting point for adjustment?

Or, another idea would be to change optimal/max range to 200/700 or something, forcing said combo to need to get closer or lose out on 1 point of damage per Snub at 250m.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 30 April 2021 - 04:14 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Matthew Ace, on 30 April 2021 - 04:10 PM, said:

I am opposed to the idea of making snubs splash - I suspect it'll quickly eliminate its use, even if overall dama0ge has increased. And it will be akin to PGI overreacting on certain features (think 90t+ hoverjet adjustment from years ba0ck).

The problem here is its synergy with AC20 and not its standalone use, isn't it?

For an Alpha of 2 AC20 + 3 Snub Without heat quirks, it's 31 heat + ghost heat

Wouldn't dropping GH thresholdfor Snubs back to 2 and/or raising heat to 8 be a better starting point for adjustment?

Or, another idea would be to change optimal/max range to 200/700 or something, forcing said combo to need to get closer or lose out on 1 point of damage per Snub at 250m.

I think the reduction of HSL of Snubs would be worse. It's already working well, I don't think they would like to invalidate a new-found favorite build, I wouldn't. Splash would at least let them use it, but wouldn't be that effective.

Maybe they should link AC20 and Snubs together, that it could either fire 3 SNPPCs or 2 SNPPC + AC20, but it will still affect builds.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 30 April 2021 - 04:55 PM, said:

I think the reduction of HSL of Snubs would be worse. It's already working well, I don't think they would like to invalidate a new-found favorite build, I wouldn't. Splash would at least let them use it, but wouldn't be that effective.

Maybe they should link AC20 and Snubs together, that it could either fire 3 SNPPCs or 2 SNPPC + AC20, but it will still affect builds.

With the way GH works, you'd have to raise the AC/20's GH cap to 3 or else it would trigger penalties at just 1 AC/20 + 1 SNPPC using current values. GH assumes the lowest cap of the weapons involved in a group.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 30 April 2021 - 04:57 PM, said:

With the way GH works, you'd have to raise the AC/20's GH cap to 3 or else it would trigger penalties at just 1 AC/20 + 1 SNPPC using current values. GH assumes the lowest cap of the weapons involved in a group.

Cool.

2 birds 1 stone.

[Krasnopesky]

HammerMaster, on 30 April 2021 - 04:00 PM, said:

Understood but how many IS lights can run 3 LPPC and OTHER weapons? Not just one trick ponies?

The direct comparison is 1 Snub Nose to 2 LPPCs. You were concerned that Light Mechs that would use 1 Snub Nose would not be useful (I don't think they are useful now, but that is another matter). So lets compare them:

1x SNPPC: 1 energy hardpoint, 2 slots, 6 tonnes, 10 damage, 7 heat, 4 second cooldown, 270m optimal range

2x LPPC: 2 energy hardpoints, 4 slots, 6 tonnes, 10 damage, 9 heat, 3 second cooldown, 540m optimal range

Based on this comparison my argument is the only reason to take 1 SNPPC over 2 LPPC is when you literally can't put 2 LPPC on a Mech.

Here are the Light Mechs that can use one SNPPC but can't equip two LPPCs:

Locust 1M, 1V, 3S, 3V
Flea 19
Commando 2D
Osiris 1P
Spider 5K, Spider 5V

Of these Light Mechs the Locusts and Flea pretty much can't take backup weapons as they run out of tonnage and shouldn't bother taking 2 MGs and some ammo anyway (better with another heatsink/engine rating/armour). Likewise the Spider 5V has no other hardpoints to take backup weapons.

That leaves us with 3 Mechs: 2D, 1P & 5K.

Edited by Krasnopesky, 30 April 2021 - 05:18 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Krasnopesky, on 30 April 2021 - 05:07 PM, said:

The direct comparison is 1 Snub Nose to 2 LPPCs. You were concerned that Light Mechs that would use 1 Snub Nose would not be useful (I don't think they are useful now, but that is another matter). So lets compare them:

1x SNPPC: 1 energy hardpoint, 2 slots, 6 tonnes, 10 damage, 7 heat, 4 second cooldown, 270m optimal range

2x LPPC: 2 energy hardpoints, 4 slots, 6 tonnes, 10 damage, 9 heat, 3 second cooldown, 540m optimal range

Based on this comparison my argument is the only reason to take 1 SNPPC over 2 LPPC is when you literally can't put 2 LPPC on a Mech.

Here are the Light Mechs that can use one SNPPC but can't equip two LPPCs:

Locust 1M, 1V, 3S, 3V
Flea 19
Commando 2D
Osiris 1P
Spider 5K, Spider 5V
Of these Light Mechs the Locusts and Flea pretty much can't take backup weapons as they run out of tonnage and shouldn't bother taking 2 MGs and some ammo anyway (better with another heatsink/engine rating/armour). Likewise the Spider 5V has no other hardpoints to take backup weapons.

That leaves us with 3 Mechs: 2D, 1P & 5K.

Thanks for digging into that for clarification.

[Krasnopesky]

FupDup, on 30 April 2021 - 04:57 PM, said:

With the way GH works, you'd have to raise the AC/20's GH cap to 3 or else it would trigger penalties at just 1 AC/20 + 1 SNPPC using current values. GH assumes the lowest cap of the weapons involved in a group.

This is a solution I have looked at too, I believe it could work if spread damage fails.

With this method you can still shoot 2 AC20 + 1 Snub Nose for 50 pinpoint and you also activate the triple AC20 Victor 9A1 for 60 pinpoint with very little heat. 2 AC20 + 3 Snub Nose is obviously out of the equation though.

There are plenty of Mechs that can run triple snub AC20 that can also run double AC20 + 1 snub, so it doesn't really address the issue people have focused on most.

Very simple comparison:
2x AC20 + 1 Snub: 34 tonnes, 17 heat, 50 pinpoint
1x AC20 + 3 Snub: 32 tonnes, 26 heat, 50 pinpoint

[Meep Meep]

Dunno why the debate is running away from the fact this entire change is over one single fit that is slightly overperforming on certain mechs and not that 3 snub fits are inherently overpowered. Is there really enough of a problem with 3 snub 1/2 heavy projectile fits or is it more that its currently the most popular brawling fit due to easy use and not enough other fits have been tested yet?

I mean its kinda nice to have a simple fit that syncs well on the kraken or any atlas for that matter.

Deadside it up and have some fun brawling.

KRAKEN HEADS

Doesn't look op to me just fun.

Edited by Meep Meep, 30 April 2021 - 05:33 PM.

[FupDup]

Krasnopesky, on 30 April 2021 - 05:18 PM, said:

This is a solution I have looked at too, I believe it could work if spread damage fails.

With this method you can still shoot 2 AC20 + 1 Snub Nose for 50 pinpoint and you also activate the triple AC20 Victor 9A1 for 60 pinpoint with very little heat. 2 AC20 + 3 Snub Nose is obviously out of the equation though.

There are plenty of Mechs that can run triple snub AC20 that can also run double AC20 + 1 snub, so it doesn't really address the issue people have focused on most.

Very simple comparison:
2x AC20 + 1 Snub: 34 tonnes, 17 heat, 50 pinpoint
1x AC20 + 3 Snub: 32 tonnes, 26 heat, 50 pinpoint

I definitely do not want to see triple AC/20 without Spooky Heat.

[The Lighthouse]

I think the issue really is not the damage, heat or anything. It's range.

Change optimal range to 200m and people will think twice against anything with medium range, so this statement can be a bit more accurate:

Kiran Yagami, on 30 April 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

They aren't overperforming. You're just making yourself too easy to hit.

[East Indy]

I appreciate the considerate discussion but to take a step back for a second, puzzling over combinations for AC/20s and PPCs is about 'Mechs pretty much 80 tons and up. Asking "How can we diversify 50-to-60-point pinpoint alphas?" may reflect a preferred playstyle but it's a narrow view both of the game and player needs.

'Mechs mounting triple Snubs seem manageable, and I was pretty much okay with 3SPPC-AC/20 but this has veered into a loss of perspective.

Triple PPC was bold, and offered a month of interesting builds. It's also problematic like any energy-ballistic mix has been since 2013. Stopping thinking of frogs to swallow to catch the spider to catch the fly. Walk this one back. They're already all cooler and faster. Move on and focus on something better.