230 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 08:56 AM, said:

Firestarter has worse hitboxes, weapons locations, and if profile size alone was enough for less agility then Assaults should be the most agile mechs in the game.

Nobody said profile size alone was enough. I'm the one specifically pointing out that it's based on numerous factors, some of which you never even listed in the first place. Kindly put the strawman away and stop tilting at windmills.

[Nightbird]

YueFei, on 05 May 2021 - 09:31 AM, said:

Nobody said profile size alone was enough. I'm the one specifically pointing out that it's based on numerous factors, some of which you never even listed in the first place. Kindly put the strawman away and stop tilting at windmills.

Why point at factors that don't make a difference in the comparison? It's just being concise.

[pattonesque]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 09:02 AM, said:

Some sure, but ALL 30-35 ton lights with the same role as the vulcan and without extreme quirks to compensate, have less agility than the vulcan.

This includes mechs that are garbage tier, with nothing for quirks and weapon loadouts.

sure! but also there's a quirk pass coming soon

[Sjorpha]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

"Most" is fine, "All" is not especially with lights in the same role i.e. most agile in its class.

Yeah, I think I agree with that. There should definitely be a few mechs at each tonnage that surpasses the most agile mech at the tonnage above it. (the most agile 30 ton mech should be more agile than the most agile 35 ton mech and so on)

I think the issue here might be being hesitant to change values too much, combined with unwillingness to nerf anything. The vulcan is already that super agile and they don't want to make any mechs less agile or something like that.

[Vlad Ward]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 09:33 AM, said:

Why point at factors that don't make a difference in the comparison? It's just being concise.

It sounds like you're asserting that the Vulcan is overtuned.

Are there other Mediums tuned similarly or is this an outlier?

[Nightbird]

Sjorpha, on 05 May 2021 - 09:34 AM, said:

Yeah, I think I agree with that. There should definitely be a few mechs at each tonnage that surpasses the most agile mech at the tonnage above it. (the most agile 30 ton mech should be more agile than the most agile 35 ton mech and so on)

I think the issue here might be being hesitant to change values too much, combined with unwillingness to nerf anything. The vulcan is already that super agile and they don't want to make any mechs less agile or something like that.

Agreed, the Vulcan is too agile, but even if nerfs are off the table, why not make a few mechs equal to it? What build can you put on a Cheeta with the same agility as a Vulcan would make them anywhere close to being equal to it? Or would having a Firestarter with a similar MPL build and the same agility be any worse than it? If the Vulcan is that bad, nerf it, if not, make other mechs equal to it. That is the kind of balance that the Cauldron declared they would do is it not?

[Nightbird]

Here's a comparison showing two similar builds on the Vulcan and the Firestarter. Note that the full survival tree was used, and armor all moved forward for easy comparison.



Here's the profiles and weapon hardpoint locations, the Vulcan is taller but has more compact torso hitboxs and higher mounts.

[Wid1046]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 10:28 AM, said:

Here's a comparison showing two similar builds on the Vulcan and the Firestarter. Note that the full survival tree was used, and armor all moved forward for easy comparison.

[redacted]

You do realize that the Vulcan is considered to be one of the best mechs in the game and the Firestarter is considered to be one of the worst mechs in the game, right? The Cauldron is trying to balance everything without nerfing things, so yeah the Vulcan is still a better mech than most others in the game, however with this patch some of the others (mostly heavies and assaults) will catch up a little, then with the quirk patch more will catch up a bit (including lights and other mediums), and then when the rescale happens the Vulcan will probably be pretty average.

Yeah, lights in general will suffer in the upcoming patch, but not because of the Vulcan. They and other mechs that rely on agility are expected to get quirks to help even this patch out a bit. I expect lights still won't be in great shape until after PGI gets around to doing the rescale, but the Cauldron can't implement rescale and the Vulcan won't be the cause the problems that light mechs have.

[Nightbird]

Wid1046, on 05 May 2021 - 10:49 AM, said:

You do realize that the Vulcan is considered to be one of the best mechs in the game and the Firestarter is considered to be one of the worst mechs in the game, right? The Cauldron is trying to balance everything without nerfing things, so yeah the Vulcan is still a better mech than most others in the game, however with this patch some of the others (mostly heavies and assaults) will catch up a little, then with the quirk patch more will catch up a bit (including lights and other mediums), and then when the rescale happens the Vulcan will probably be pretty average.

Yeah, lights in general will suffer in the upcoming patch, but not because of the Vulcan. They and other mechs that rely on agility are expected to get quirks to help even this patch out a bit. I expect lights still won't be in great shape until after PGI gets around to doing the rescale, but the Cauldron can't implement rescale and the Vulcan won't be the cause the problems that light mechs have.

Repeating what I have been saying won't convince me I'm wrong m8. What you should be saying is that lights have super strong survival trees and are smaller so they should be less agile.

[Navid A1]

After going through all the discussion here, strictly based on merits, I have requested for the Cauldron to do a second look at light mech mobility values.

Dario and I have drafted a potential revision, and are waiting for others to give their opinion.

Edited by Navid A1, 05 May 2021 - 10:58 AM.

[Nightbird]

Navid A1, on 05 May 2021 - 10:57 AM, said:

After going through all the discussion here, strictly based on merits, I have requested for the Cauldron to do a second look at light mech mobility values.

Dario and I have drafted a potential revision, and are waiting for others to give their opinion.

Thank you and Dario!

[Capt Deadpool]

Navid A1, on 05 May 2021 - 10:57 AM, said:

After going through all the discussion here, strictly based on merits, I have requested for the Cauldron to do a second look at light mech mobility values.

Dario and I have drafted a potential revision, and are waiting for others to give their opinion.

Bravo guys!!!!

[Capt Deadpool]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

"Most" is fine, "All" is not especially with lights in the same role i.e. most agile in its class.

I'd go as far as to say making Vulcans more agile than 'some' lights is the better long-term target even than 'most' lights if we are going to increase viability of the light class.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 05 May 2021 - 12:10 PM.

[Nightbird]

Capt Deadpool, on 05 May 2021 - 12:00 PM, said:

I'd go as far as to say 'some' is the better long-term target even than 'most' if we are going to increase viability of the light class.

Well, despite lights continuously being the worst performing class, we're somewhat of a bogeyman to assault pilots who clinch their behinds with the mere thought of a light nearby so I'm not expect any buffs. Keeping the current power level would be sufficient.

[Capt Deadpool]

Nightbird, on 05 May 2021 - 12:03 PM, said:

Well, despite lights continuously being the worst performing class, we're somewhat of a bogeyman to assault pilots who clinch their behinds with the mere thought of a light nearby so I'm not expect any buffs. Keeping the current power level would be sufficient.

Let's see how fast the assaults can spin around though after the agility pass? Perhaps they will be relaxing their rectums.

[OmgKllL]

I look forward to test all this modifications ingame.

After that I will have the data I need to comment their effects on the game-play.

The plan to buff the under-performing mechs is a good idea even tough I believe we'll see real changes after the rescale.

Keep it up guys and thank you.

PS: if the problem about some op-mech is the skill tree, just erase it from the game mechanics. You'll make even new players experience less painful.

[justcallme A S H]

Navid A1, on 05 May 2021 - 10:57 AM, said:

After going through all the discussion here, strictly based on merits, I have requested for the Cauldron to do a second look at light mech mobility values.

Dario and I have drafted a potential revision, and are waiting for others to give their opinion.

Yeah it was a nice easy fix.

Just nerf the Vulcan a little.





J/K.

[FupDup]

I mean...in regards to the Vulcan vs. lights dilemma there's a really simple solution that people seem to be overlooking.

Just don't buff the Vulcan in the mobility pass. Leave it where it is now. Yes, really. I know, it sounds crazy, but I like crazy.

[Jman5]

Capt Deadpool, on 04 May 2021 - 11:42 AM, said:

@ Darian, what D A T A was somewhat implying regarding why many experienced light pilots take survival nodes, albeit a bit ungraciously, is that lights really should never be taking full broadsides. We take fractions of laser fire at a time, if at all, and try to avoid at all costs getting hit by PPFLD. Even in the legs, which you should try to use terrain to hide if you can. And so even small increases in armor from the skill tree are going to be extremely helpful in mitigating the laser fire that whittles away at us over time. i.e., 3 pts of armor in a light is very different than 3 points of armor in a heavy or an assault because we are not taking the same type of damage.

The problem is that at a certain skill level, players become VERY good at hitting lights with those big alphas. On top of that, most light builds use short range weapons. You have to get in close, but the closer you get the easier you are to hit.

[Capt Deadpool]

justcallme A S H, on 05 May 2021 - 02:35 PM, said:

Yeah it was a nice easy fix.

Just nerf the Vulcan a little.





J/K.

Booooooo!

Jman5, on 05 May 2021 - 02:47 PM, said:

The problem is that at a certain skill level, players become VERY good at hitting lights with those big alphas. On top of that, most light builds use short range weapons. You have to get in close, but the closer you get the easier you are to hit.

Oh not disputing that at all, was just elucidating the reasons lights take survival nodes when on the surface it seems to offer little benefit relative to other classes.