32 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Note that these are just my impression on my first dozens of matches or so. It might change while the meta settles in, but in the mean time it's the opinions I hold.

> ATMs are kind of good, but comparatively somewhat underwhelming now. I don't want the monstrous damage back, but I think the return of the sweetspot range at 270m would make it more useful without making it cancerous.

> The basic UACs are okay for the most part. The standard ACs are pretty underwhelming, but that is more of the UACs fault. I really would have loved the UAC rework of Navid (the one with 0% jam chance). But until UACs get said rework, the standard acs, both clans and IS, at their 5s, 10s, and 20s, should get a bit of CD reduction.

> The IS AC20, though a bit easier to land, it's still not that special. If it's not going to get increased GH for reasons of making it strong on it's own, I think it should have reduced cooldown, and/or increased max range to complement the velocity (note that optimal range stays the same).

> The Clan ACs, while a bit stronger now, is still an underwhelming setup for consideration when the other option of just shooting all the damage in one burst works well in most cases. One isn't going for CACs in lieu of UACs on lighter mechs when they need the most bang with their buck. Funnily enough, it's quite powerful when you are able to pack the most of it in, like the UV with 7 CAC5s -- yes it's possible, yes it is devastating.

Unfortunately the reduction of shells have backed it up into a wall, it can't just have reduced heat because it's already cold, we can't just unlink it like LBXs because that would make them pairing with UACs have more alpha -- that could have done if it retained the shell count.

My suggestion is further increase in velocity, and the reduction of slots to be able to directly replace UACs in most builds. Alternatively they could just make it so that CACs use single slug, but honestly I prefer the first one.

> The LB5X and LB2Xs are meh, yeah they work a little bit better, but again they are just meh. Why even pick LB2Xs and LB5Xs at all? The AC2s and AC5s work better anyways.

I think the smaller LBXs (5s and 2s) should have frontloaded damage -- increased damage and cooldown while retaining DPS. It has to be mechanically relevant, crits aren't going to factor in immediately compared to basically just brute-forcing your way through with pinpoint damage.

> LAMs is useful, but I still wouldn't bring it over AMS, in many cases the AMS ammo is adequate the entire match anyways. LAMs and AMS are treading in each other's role, unfortunately LAMs loses out by reducing sustaining DPS in builds. LAMs needs to be better in it's own role, maybe AMS higher damage/shot but reduced ROF for better handling high-HP missiles, while LAMs would have higher range better suited for LRMs and MRMs.

> The RAC5s feel better, but it's still complicated to use. Just remove the spread already.

> The PPCs are the one that were gotten right the first time. No complaints there. In fact I like the ability to mix LGRs and ERPPCs together, it's the return of Gauss-PPC that isn't cancerous.

> The MRMs also feels great. The MRM10s however, if not because of range, I struggle to choose it over SRM6s. It already deals less damage that is more spread, while also being hotter and longer cooldown -- just an overall downgrade if not because of immense range, but that begs the question of why not just get closer? It needs to be colder and tighter, less cooldown. Heat to 3.6, CD to 4.0s, spread to 4.0.

> The IS Heavy Machinegun range increase is a great change. Previously I never took HMG because it has prohibitively short range.

> Clan Laser-Vomit is back, to an extent. The uPL and the ERuLs in conjunction with small lasers, are okay just as the return of Clan Laser Vomit. It's not really shining on anything else but the piranha, but it feels more like a piranha issue. Another mech it shines on are Exe and Gargoyle, but honestly it's less oppressive.

> The IS Streaks needs to have the same distance as with the Clan Streaks. There is still a LOT of overlap in use because of it, pushing the max range out of 360m much like the clan Streaks would give IS Streaks mid-range use and would be useful on it's own, less affected of how the standard or artemis srm are relevant.

> Overall the patch is awesome. It's the right direction, but it's not there yet. The additional Cauldron changes might make it click better.

A little bit of update:

> 3x LPPC is still anemic. Yeah it's a 9-ton investment, but given it's use with lights, I think it should be a worthy and powerful replacement to an array of ERMLs. I think it should get like 6 damage with 5 heat, still at 3 seconds cooldown.

> SNPPC was kind of overperforming but not on it's own. The AC20s + 3x SNPPCs are particularly potent. Personally I'm alright with them, but I don't mind with it doing some splash.

In addition:

> IS PPC is still kind of meh, yeah it's a bit cold, but I think it should be colder to 8.

> IS ERPPC needs to be a LOT colder, from 12 heat to 10 heat. It's still somewhat hot garbage. Yeah it's useful with the LGR, but on it's own like triple ERPPC, it's really really hot.

In addition: (May 4)

> Further testing with RACs, the RAC5s and RAC2s, I think they still need more velocity. It's unlike AC10s and AC5s that you have only to figure out the lead with a single volley, no the RACs require constant lead, and that is complicated by the part where the targets can actively screw up your lead with evasive actions that they can immediately take as soon as they are being hit.

I think RAC5/2s should have 1800/2300 velocity. At any rate, the low range of weapons would still restrict them at closer distances despite velocity.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 May 2021 - 03:52 AM.

[YueFei]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:13 PM, said:

> The IS AC20, though a bit easier to land, it's still not that special. If it's not going to get increased GH for reasons of making it strong on it's own, I think it should have reduced cooldown, and/or increased max range to complement the velocity (note that optimal range stays the same).

Just adding my two cents here. For a long time I played nothing but a SHD-2D with AC20+3xSRM4. The reason I chose this was because initially it had a 15% ballistic cooldown quirk. This gave AC20 a 3.4 second cooldown before factoring in any nodes in the skill tree.

This was neat because under some circumstances it could fire two volleys for 1 of the enemy's, if the enemy were using 4+ second cooldown weapons. For me, that was the true utility of the shorter cooldown, getting a two-for-one, and not necessary raw DPS, since in most circumstances you don't get to just face-rush into people holding down the trigger at maximum fire rate.

I think a slight AC20 cooldown decrease could open this up for all mechs that can equip AC20, not just ones with ballistic cooldown quirks. Basically let the AC20 get "inside" of the firing cycle of other "big" guns with 4+ second cooldown.

[PocketYoda]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:13 PM, said:

Note that these are just my impression on my first dozens of matches or so. It might change while the meta settles in, but in the mean time it's the opinions I hold.

> ATMs are kind of good, but comparatively somewhat underwhelming now. I don't want the monstrous damage back, but I think the return of the sweetspot range at 270m would make it more useful without making it cancerous.

> The basic UACs are okay for the most part. The standard ACs are pretty underwhelming, but that is more of the UACs fault. I really would have loved the UAC rework of Navid (the one with 0% jam chance).

> The IS AC20, though a bit easier to land, it's still not that special. If it's not going to get increased GH for reasons of making it strong on it's own, I think it should have reduced cooldown, and/or increased max range to complement the velocity (note that optimal range stays the same).

> The Clan ACs, while a bit stronger now, is still an underwhelming setup for consideration when the other option of just shooting all the damage in one burst works well in most cases. One isn't going for CACs in lieu of UACs on lighter mechs when they need the most bang with their buck. Funnily enough, it's quite powerful when you are able to pack the most of it in, like the UV with 7 CAC5s -- yes it's possible, yes it is devastating.

Unfortunately the reduction of shells have backed it up into a wall, it can't just have reduced heat because it's already cold, we can't just unlink it like LBXs because that would make them pairing with UACs have more alpha -- that could have done if it retained the shell count.

My suggestion is further increase in velocity, and the reduction of slots to be able to directly replace UACs in most builds. Alternatively they could just make it so that CACs use single slug, but honestly I prefer the first one.

> The LB5X and LB2Xs are meh, yeah they work a little bit better, but again they are just meh. Why even pick LB2Xs and LB5Xs at all? The AC2s and AC5s work better anyways.

I think the smaller LBXs (5s and 2s) should have frontloaded damage -- increased damage and cooldown while retaining DPS. It has to be mechanically relevant, crits aren't going to factor in immediately compared to basically just brute-forcing your way through with pinpoint damage.

> LAMs is useful, but I still wouldn't bring it over AMS, in many cases the AMS ammo is adequate the entire match anyways. LAMs and AMS are treading in each other's role, unfortunately LAMs loses out by reducing sustaining DPS in builds. LAMs needs to be better in it's own role, maybe AMS higher damage/shot but reduced ROF for better handling high-HP missiles, while LAMs would have higher range better suited for LRMs and MRMs.

> The RAC5s feel better, but it's still complicated to use. Just remove the spread already.

> The PPCs are the one that were gotten right the first time. No complaints there. In fact I like the ability to mix LGRs and ERPPCs together, it's the return of Gauss-PPC that isn't cancerous.

> The MRMs also feels great. The MRM10s however, if not because of range, I struggle to choose it over SRM6s. It already deals less damage that is more spread, while also being hotter and longer cooldown -- just an overall downgrade if not because of immense range, but that begs the question of why not just get closer? It needs to be colder and tighter, less cooldown. Heat to 3.6, CD to 4.0s, spread to 4.0.

> The IS Heavy Machinegun range increase is a great change. Previously I never took HMG because it has prohibitively short range.

> Clan Laser-Vomit is back, to an extent. The uPL and the ERuLs in conjunction with small lasers, are okay just as the return of Clan Laser Vomit. It's not really shining on anything else but the piranha, but it feels more like a piranha issue. Another mech it shines on are Exe and Gargoyle, but honestly it's less oppressive.

> The IS Streaks needs to have the same distance as with the Clan Streaks. There is still a LOT of overlap in use because of it, pushing the max range out of 360m much like the clan Streaks would give IS Streaks mid-range use and would be useful on it's own, less affected of how the standard or artemis srm are relevant.

Completely agree 100%

[lazorbeamz]

LB2 are kinda better than AC 2 for the most part. Clan rifleman 6LBX 2 is a great build. With AC2 it becomes a bit hot.
Actually the total spread = sqrt(weapon spread + player aim spread) so if you cant acheive significantly less aim errors when compared to a weapon spread then the AC will spread nearly the same as LB. Its just that with LB you get a much colder weapon and also bonus damage against structure.

AC, LB 5 are something that i really cant find a use to though.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 26 April 2021 - 01:21 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Well, 2x UAC10 + 2x LPPC WHM-6R on a Whammy is a beast.

[pbiggz]

I don't disagree with much except that I preferred a higher damage, longer cooldown light PPC to the faster cooldown higher dps light PPC, mostly because with a higher damage, the light PPC played more like an actual sniper, but available in a weight class that does not typically get access to weapons like that and I'm a big fan of weapons being allowed to do things that are unique. Heavy PPC too is nothing special which i guess is ok but a bit dull. This is really the only thing about the cauldron changes that I disagree with.

That said my only general caution is that people will freak out for the next week or two because things that formerly never killed them are suddenly able to kill them again, and they'll log in here to scream about it. We've already seen a bunch of people log in to wail about how Clan mechs are OP and the IS is nerfed when IS has the AC20 snub nose BLAP builds running around. As is tradition on the MWO forum, the plague which the mech dads scream loudest about is frequently not the problem.

[HenryFA]

I don't know man...

Awesome 8Q needs more love
I think the nerf on the PPC heat generation from the latest patch is unnecessary
Yes I am aware that HPPC got a heat buff

Yeah the triple HPPC build is kinda decent in terms of dmg
Since you cant put more DHS due to critical shots limitations on IS mechs, the sheer heat alone is a really hard to deal with.

Not to mention its hittbox alone makes this mech extremely hard to play with.

Or maybe im just a horrible noob that suck hard with this mech lol

Edited by HenryFA, 26 April 2021 - 03:46 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

HenryFA, on 26 April 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

I don't know man...

Awesome 8Q needs more love
I think the nerf on the PPC heat generation from the latest patch is unnecessary
Yes I am aware that HPPC got a heat buff

Yeah the triple HPPC build is kinda decent in terms of dmg
Since you cant put more DHS due to critical shots limitations on IS mechs, the sheer heat alone is a really hard to deal with.

Not to mention its hittbox alone makes this mech extremely hard to play with.

Or maybe im just a horrible noob that suck hard with this mech lol

The dude is shooting three HPPCs at the same time.

[pbiggz]

The6thMessenger, on 26 April 2021 - 03:57 PM, said:

The dude is shooting three HPPCs at the same time.

I mean the 8q had the heat scale quirk so it could BLAP.

[Darian DelFord]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:13 PM, said:

Note that these are just my impression on my first dozens of matches or so. It might change while the meta settles in, but in the mean time it's the opinions I hold.

...........> The IS Streaks needs to have the same distance as with the Clan Streaks. There is still a LOT of overlap in use because of it, pushing the max range out of 360m much like the clan Streaks would give IS Streaks mid-range use and would be useful on it's own, less affected of how the standard or artemis srm are relevant............

You had me until here. My SPL Flea no like anything that increases the range of damn near insta lock on streaks.

[PocketYoda]

HenryFA, on 26 April 2021 - 03:39 PM, said:

I don't know man...

Awesome 8Q needs more love
I think the nerf on the PPC heat generation from the latest patch is unnecessary
Yes I am aware that HPPC got a heat buff

Yeah the triple HPPC build is kinda decent in terms of dmg
Since you cant put more DHS due to critical shots limitations on IS mechs, the sheer heat alone is a really hard to deal with.

Not to mention its hittbox alone makes this mech extremely hard to play with.

Or maybe im just a horrible noob that suck hard with this mech lol

I tried everything to put three HPPCs on my Urbanmech but i just can't seem to do it.. I was so sad.

[HenryFA]

The6thMessenger, on 26 April 2021 - 03:57 PM, said:

The dude is shooting three HPPCs at the same time.

Why not? Not gonna waste the PPC +1 HSL quirk

[The6thMessenger]

Darian DelFord, on 26 April 2021 - 06:56 PM, said:

You had me until here. My SPL Flea no like anything that increases the range of damn near insta lock on streaks.

Then get a different mech.

[Dogstar]

The6thMessenger, on 26 April 2021 - 11:31 PM, said:

Then get a different mech.

That's not the kind of attitude that helps. Every mech needs to be viable, even if Darian was a bit excessive with the 'insta lock' statement.

[The6thMessenger]

Dogstar, on 27 April 2021 - 02:19 AM, said:

That's not the kind of attitude that helps. Every mech needs to be viable, even if Darian was a bit excessive with the 'insta lock' statement.

I agree, that's not particularly helpful. Don't get me wrong, I don't like this weapon counters an entire class of mechs. But the reality is that any weapon would have been basically anti-light because they are allergic to damage that's why they avoid it. The streaks' mechanic of negating their ability to dodge, nuking them on the process, seems to me that they are working as intended.

We could make lights a bit larger and a bit tankier, this normalizes the effectiveness of other weapons to respond to lights, deemphasizing the Streaks to their anti-light role and opens up a way for buffing the Streaks without invalidating an entire class. This would result in less frustration by being more forgiving for both parties.

But if they want to keep the fleas and locusts small, I think they better get used to streaks nuking them into oblivion.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 April 2021 - 03:00 AM.

[Wid1046]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:13 PM, said:

[redacted]

> The Clan ACs, while a bit stronger now, is still an underwhelming setup for consideration when the other option of just shooting all the damage in one burst works well in most cases. One isn't going for CACs in lieu of UACs on lighter mechs when they need the most bang with their buck. Funnily enough, it's quite powerful when you are able to pack the most of it in, like the UV with 7 CAC5s -- yes it's possible, yes it is devastating.

Unfortunately the reduction of shells have backed it up into a wall, it can't just have reduced heat because it's already cold, we can't just unlink it like LBXs because that would make them pairing with UACs have more alpha -- that could have done if it retained the shell count.

My suggestion is further increase in velocity, and the reduction of slots to be able to directly replace UACs in most builds. Alternatively they could just make it so that CACs use single slug, but honestly I prefer the first one.

[redacted]

I would recommend against changing the velocity of the AC5 since it now matches the ERPPC perfectly. I think that and going down to one shell are enough to give it a niche, however I wouldn't argue against a small cooldown reduction either.

Example build on a MCII-B: https://mech.nav-alp...1d68e199_MCII-B
This will have a pinpoint alpha of 40 plus another 10 in splash at 720 meters.

Edited by Wid1046, 27 April 2021 - 05:20 AM.

[mike29tw]

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:13 PM, said:

return of the sweetspot range at 270m [/u]would make it more useful without making it cancerous.

By return of the sweetspot do you mean the short range damage of ATM? I feel like the sweetspot of ATM should be the medium range damage so it doesn't overstep too much of SRM and LRM's role.

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:13 PM, said:

But until UACs get said rework, the standard acs, both clans and IS, at their 5s, 10s, and 20s, should get a bit of CD reduction.[/u]

I was very excited to try out 0% jam chance UAC. Any word on why it didn't make it this patch? UAC that functions like a double-barrel sounds amazing.

The6thMessenger, on 25 April 2021 - 10:13 PM, said:

further increase in velocity[/u], and the reduction of slots to be able to directly replace UACs in most builds. Alternatively they could just make it so that CACs use single slug, but honestly I prefer the first one.

What do we think about increasing both the velocity and range of CAC?

[The6thMessenger]

mike29tw, on 27 April 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

By return of the sweetspot do you mean the short range damage of ATM? I feel like the sweetspot of ATM should be the medium range damage so it doesn't overstep too much of SRM and LRM's role.

That's quite wrong, why would it be comparable to SRMs at all? They have different uses. SSRMs maybe? Well, the fire-and-forget nature of SSRMs means it has a tighter niche, one which terrorizes lights.

I agree that it has some overlap with LRMs, but it's the sweet-spot that makes it more of a choice. That being said, I think 270m is enough, it's still useful at mid-range regardless, and it's not like LRMs are that good long-range, it's really more of mid-range with respect to time-to-target.

mike29tw, on 27 April 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

I was very excited to try out 0% jam chance UAC. Any word on why it didn't make it this patch? UAC that functions like a double-barrel sounds amazing.

PGI putting engineers on MW5. Still not worth full price.

mike29tw, on 27 April 2021 - 10:12 PM, said:

What do we think about increasing both the velocity and range of CAC?

Range of CACs are adequate. God damn CAC20 outranges IS ACs, and honestly that is enough. The velocity is more of just topping at this point, I would prefer the reduction of Cooldown for relevance until the UACs get their 0% jam rework.

[Dogstar]

The6thMessenger, on 27 April 2021 - 10:53 PM, said:

SSRMs maybe? Well, the fire-and-forget nature of SSRMs means it has a tighter niche, one which terrorizes lights..

Ugh. I do wish people would stop associating SSRMs with statements like 'fire and forget' or 'deleting lights'.

SSRMs have definite issues at the moment - firstly, they are hot, heavy, and have a low ghost heat penalty so boating them means you can easily overheat even if you set them on chain fire. Secondly, they require high facetime at short ranges so if you're using SSRMs you're usually badly exposed to return fire which means they only really work well when boated in excess on heavies/assaults.

You can try them on fast mediums in an attempt to be a 'light hunter' but they're also tricky to keep on target against a fast moving light mech, and chasing rabbits isn't particularly good for the team when there are much better roles a medium missile boat can fill.

Chasing a light with SSRMs is about as far from 'fire and forget' as you can get, and heaven help you if there's any ECM around.

[The6thMessenger]

Dogstar, on 28 April 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:

Ugh. I do wish people would stop associating SSRMs with statements like 'fire and forget' or 'deleting lights'.

Dogstar, on 28 April 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:

You can try them on fast mediums in an attempt to be a 'light hunter' but they're also tricky to keep on target against a fast moving light mech, and chasing rabbits isn't particularly good for the team when there are much better roles a medium missile boat can fill.

Chasing a light with SSRMs is about as far from 'fire and forget' as you can get, and heaven help you if there's any ECM around.

Dafuq are you talking about? Fire and Forget is LITERALLY HOW THEY FUNCTION, because they don't need sustained locks so that the missile tracks targets. That's how even a lot of missiles function.( https://en.wikipedia...Fire-and-forget )

A hitscan weapon doesn't stop being a hitscan weapon just because it is ineffective. That is literally just a description of their mechanics.

Dogstar, on 28 April 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:

SSRMs have definite issues at the moment - firstly, they are hot, heavy, and have a low ghost heat penalty so boating them means you can easily overheat even if you set them on chain fire. Secondly, they require high facetime at short ranges so if you're using SSRMs you're usually badly exposed to return fire which means they only really work well when boated in excess on heavies/assaults.

Not necessarily. Locking is pretty much universal, so you can acquire secondary lock, and then just fire out when you can.

And yes, Streaks are kind of lame for the moment, and considering how lights are set up, they seem to kind of have to so to not invalidate an entire class.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 April 2021 - 02:54 AM.