85 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

Just curious thats all.

With all the PPFLD running around, just wondering how the playing field is going to be evened out?

[Heavy Money]

I have been enjoying 1 shotting lights with AC20+3xSnubs. Those little s**ts finally getting what they deserve! Keep those damn fish away from my Atlas.

Edited by Heavy Money, 30 April 2021 - 09:29 PM.

[Nightbird]

Lights will be fixed by buffing agility on heavier mechs, so we can track them more easily for the one-shot.

[Nayru]

^ but unironically

streaks being made nearly unusable (contrasted to the very wide other weapon buffs) just means your new death is basically everyone with -dur less hot lasers (relatively tolerable) + massive instapinpoint burst instakilling or instalegging you (less tolerable)

all it takes is one hit, hitreg isn't nearly as wonky with acs/ppcs as it is lasers when it comes to lights

[Monkey Lover]

Lights need no help. When is the last time you saw an assault alive at the end of the game fighting it out?

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 April 2021 - 10:14 PM.

[Capt Deadpool]

I am concerned as well, after seeing/experiencing all the buffed velocities of PPFLD weapons, which should be even more deadly with increased agility quirks. I have spoken with other light pilots who feel the same.

On top of that, the frightening talk of increasing the flea's hit boxes, one of the very few lights that can be somewhat effective on the battlefield in the right hands. Not nearly as meta/dominant as the Veagle or Hellbringer or Warhammer or any of a large number of other mechs that typically have far, far greater effects on wins/losses in the hands of effective pilots, it is true, but at least ithe Flea is not totally useless.

Awaiting a buffering of lights (the least-played, least effective class), praying one of the few non-terrible lights doesn't get nerfed with larger hit boxes, and hoping The Cauldron has some light pilot advocates...

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 30 April 2021 - 10:15 PM.

[Papaspud]

If you like playing anything in the 30- 50 ton range..... too bad, you are a target.

[Alexander of Macedon]

There are basically two things being said by light pilots right now: the things being said by ones who stand still/run in predictable patterns, and the ones who are feeling blessed by the small/micro pulse buffs. I'm greatly enjoying my brawl/backstab builds be effective and being able to pop legs and torsos off of overconfident light pilots who think being small and fast matters if they're just running around in the open for 5+ seconds near something with arm-mounted HPPCs.

Light play has always been about measured aggression. If you're not assessing the skill of players with dangerous builds before you fully commit on them, if you're not thinking about what's around you when you run a line in sight of part of the enemy team, if you stop moving erratically during a brawl, you're essentially saying "Please shoot me!" to anyone who can aim.

That hasn't changed. There are just more good PPFLD builds now than there were a month ago, so more people are able to punish cocky behavior.

[Maugged]

Alexander of Macedon, on 01 May 2021 - 03:22 AM, said:

There are basically two things being said by light pilots right now: the things being said by ones who stand still/run in predictable patterns, and the ones who are feeling blessed by the small/micro pulse buffs. I'm greatly enjoying my brawl/backstab builds be effective and being able to pop legs and torsos off of overconfident light pilots who think being small and fast matters if they're just running around in the open for 5+ seconds near something with arm-mounted HPPCs.

Light play has always been about measured aggression. If you're not assessing the skill of players with dangerous builds before you fully commit on them, if you're not thinking about what's around you when you run a line in sight of part of the enemy team, if you stop moving erratically during a brawl, you're essentially saying "Please shoot me!" to anyone who can aim.

That hasn't changed. There are just more good PPFLD builds now than there were a month ago, so more people are able to punish cocky behavior.

Yea of course. If people playing light mechs get one shotted it's because they need to git gud hur dur...

[justcallme A S H]

In 2016/2017 - Did lights suffer? Yes or no.

Remembering back then dual cGauss/cERPPC for 60pt PPFLD which was a thing out to 800m minimum.
And does that exist in the current game to the same level?

Decide where it sits based off that with a logical outlook from there.


My thoughts - it is nothing like that at all. There is no prolific 60 PPFLD @ 800m+, and with values going back to the same as they were in 2016/2017 - how is that a problem?

The only issue is skill. Back in '16/'17 the skill floor was higher - it might mean players drop in Tiers because they are smacked for poor play and that is how it should be.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 01 May 2021 - 04:15 AM.

[PocketYoda]

I don't really have a single issue with lights.. I tend to avoid playing them because they are so overpowered and buff my PSR too fast.

Obviously there are a few bad lights but the good ones are crazy overpowered.. Maybe people are running to slow an engine?

Edited by MechaGnome, 01 May 2021 - 04:45 AM.

[RickySpanish]

I've only played ten matches, but the matches where I flew Lights were my best performers - highest matchscore on the team in each even though we didn't win every match. I wouldn't discount Lights as being screwed by mobility buffs just yet, because it depends on play style and might just need more consideration from "balls deep" type players whose current piloting strategy is to just run at the enemy at an odd angle. It's been a long time since I yolo'd into the back of an enemy, because agility or not inevitably an Assault player with a brain is going to get a look at you. Lights are in my opinion, quite strong right now. They could do with added danger especially as the alternative is to nerf lasers AGAIN and absolutely nobody wants that.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Maugged, on 01 May 2021 - 03:51 AM, said:

Yea of course. If people playing light mechs get one shotted it's because they need to git gud hur dur...

Yes. In case you missed the point, lights are my favorite weight class and contain almost every mech I love.

Sometimes you get one-tapped through sheer bad luck, it happens. If it happens consistently, that's user error.

[Krasnopesky]

Capt Deadpool, on 30 April 2021 - 10:14 PM, said:

I am concerned as well, after seeing/experiencing all the buffed velocities of PPFLD weapons, which should be even more deadly with increased agility quirks. I have spoken with other light pilots who feel the same.

On top of that, the frightening talk of increasing the flea's hit boxes, one of the very few lights that can be somewhat effective on the battlefield in the right hands. Not nearly as meta/dominant as the Veagle or Hellbringer or Warhammer or any of a large number of other mechs that typically have far, far greater effects on wins/losses in the hands of effective pilots, it is true, but at least ithe Flea is not totally useless.

Awaiting a buffering of lights (the least-played, least effective class), praying one of the few non-terrible lights doesn't get nerfed with larger hit boxes, and hoping The Cauldron has some light pilot advocates...

The Cauldron has a lot of light pilot advocates, myself included.

Quirks will be the largest boost in Light 'Mech viability. There are many quirks specifically focused on Light 'Mechs including some large defensive quirk buffs for Lights with very little defensive quirks currently, ammo quirks on some Light 'Mechs to better allow them to bring ammo based builds, and some special new quirks for the true 'bottom of the barrel' Light Mechs.

Snubs are also being changed to less pinpoint damage and more splash damage which will help alleviate some people's concerns over pinpoint damage.

I personally have not had a great deal of problems piloting Light Mechs as a solo player in QP. The same concepts of not exposing your Mech unnecessarily, attacking from the flanks, choosing your battles wisely, always be moving etc still apply.

[Darian DelFord]

Nightbird, on 30 April 2021 - 09:34 PM, said:

Lights will be fixed by buffing agility on heavier mechs, so we can track them more easily for the one-shot.

I note the sarcasm here. However this will be another huge nerf to lights. It somewhat evened the playing field when the mobility changes went in. Yes it affected lights as well, but it also made it a tad easier to stay behind an assault.

Nayru, on 30 April 2021 - 09:39 PM, said:

^ but unironically
streaks being made nearly unusable (contrasted to the very wide other weapon buffs) just means your new death is basically everyone with -dur less hot lasers (relatively tolerable) + massive instapinpoint burst instakilling or instalegging you (less tolerable)
all it takes is one hit, hitreg isn't nearly as wonky with acs/ppcs as it is lasers when it comes to lights

Streaks have always been the hard counter to lights. I do not see this changing. Hit Reg has not been near as wonky as people make it out to be for years now. This has been proven and disproven many times. The worse case of Hit Reg I have seen in recent memory was a few weeks ago when all the servers were going haywire. But outside of that Hit Reg is mostly fine. Just used as an excuse more than reality.

Monkey Lover, on 30 April 2021 - 10:14 PM, said:

Lights need no help. When is the last time you saw an assault alive at the end of the game fighting it out?

Since the last patch, alot.

Alexander of Macedon, on 01 May 2021 - 03:22 AM, said:

There are basically two things being said by light pilots right now: the things being said by ones who stand still/run in predictable patterns, and the ones who are feeling blessed by the small/micro pulse buffs. I'm greatly enjoying my brawl/backstab builds be effective and being able to pop legs and torsos off of overconfident light pilots who think being small and fast matters if they're just running around in the open for 5+ seconds near something with arm-mounted HPPCs.
Light play has always been about measured aggression. If you're not assessing the skill of players with dangerous builds before you fully commit on them, if you're not thinking about what's around you when you run a line in sight of part of the enemy team, if you stop moving erratically during a brawl, you're essentially saying "Please shoot me!" to anyone who can aim.
That hasn't changed. There are just more good PPFLD builds now than there were a month ago, so more people are able to punish cocky behavior.

You are correct lights have to play very carefully, they have always had to. When we went from 8v8 tp 12v12 that was 8 more mechs I had to watch out for (Friendly Fire Kills is a thing). However the max range for most light mech weapons is less than 300 meters. That is well within the range of all the 40+ PPFLD alpha builds running around currently. Folks see, to forget that Damage is king for matchscore (Another discussion for another time) In order for a light to be effective we have to get up close and personal. The problem with this is PPC's Gauss are just as effective as max range as they are at close range. Especially after the minimum range was removed one some of the PPC's last patch. A huge mistake in my opinion.

Alexander of Macedon, on 01 May 2021 - 06:46 AM, said:

Yes. In case you missed the point, lights are my favorite weight class and contain almost every mech I love.
Sometimes you get one-tapped through sheer bad luck, it happens. If it happens consistently, that's user error.

True statement

justcallme A S H, on 01 May 2021 - 04:14 AM, said:

In 2016/2017 - Did lights suffer? Yes or no.
Remembering back then dual cGauss/cERPPC for 60pt PPFLD which was a thing out to 800m minimum.
And does that exist in the current game to the same level?
Decide where it sits based off that with a logical outlook from there.
My thoughts - it is nothing like that at all. There is no prolific 60 PPFLD @ 800m+, and with values going back to the same as they were in 2016/2017 - how is that a problem?
The only issue is skill. Back in '16/'17 the skill floor was higher - it might mean players drop in Tiers because they are smacked for poor play and that is how it should be.

Lights have been suffering since the great "rescale" Honestly the 800m 60+ point PFLD was a thing, but only if you were standing still. That is a moot point, the problem is that same 60+ point PPFLD could be done at 100 meters as well THAT was the problem. Does it exist today YES, the last patch made sure of it. There is so much PPFLD going on right now no one can keep track of it.

And what your not seeing is that Long / Medium Range Weapons are being used as brawling weapons. That has been the BIG issue for lights for the longest time. Lights are only effective at 200 to 300ish meters. Mediums and up are effective at ALL ranges and with little to no disadvantage.
This last patch did really nothing for lights. It made it alot more dangerous to play them. Lights require the HIGHEST skill to play, yet they have been directly and indirectly nerfed more than any other class.

This is the point of this thread. What is the cauldron going to do to even out the playing field? Right now, lights will not be able to compete in this PPFLD meta that has developed using long to medium range weapons.

Lights are the least played class.... I wonder why?

Edited by Darian DelFord, 01 May 2021 - 08:49 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Darian DelFord, on 01 May 2021 - 08:45 AM, said:

Lights are the least played class.... I wonder why?

It's genuinely not because they're squishy, but because the way MS and rewards are allocated specifically penalizes lights. If MS and rewards slanted more heavily towards effective damage (i.e. killing, taking components, critting out weapons/equipment) than raw damage, and if objective play was rewarded, lights would see more play. They're really good at efficiently crippling and killing mechs but the game rewards someone who sandpapers a mech with 300 damage over someone who drills it with <100.

In particular it needs to be more rewarding to play fast harassers like Spiders and Locusts. For example, there should be decent MS + CB rewards for chaining direct-fire hits on the same target over a certain threshold to reward lights and fast mediums for continually applying pressure to an enemy, triggered by the number of hits rather than damage dealt. Maybe do a few different ones with conditional elements like not taking return damage, being inside a given range, &c. to avoid giving them to heavies/assaults or 1.5km snipers.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 01 May 2021 - 09:05 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Alexander of Macedon, on 01 May 2021 - 09:04 AM, said:

It's genuinely not because they're squishy, but because the way MS and rewards are allocated specifically penalizes lights. If MS and rewards slanted more heavily towards effective damage (i.e. killing, taking components, critting out weapons/equipment) than raw damage, and if objective play was rewarded, lights would see more play. They're really good at efficiently crippling and killing mechs but the game rewards someone who sandpapers a mech with 300 damage over someone who drills it with <100.

In particular it needs to be more rewarding to play fast harassers like Spiders and Locusts. For example, there should be decent MS + CB rewards for chaining direct-fire hits on the same target over a certain threshold to reward lights and fast mediums for continually applying pressure to an enemy, triggered by the number of hits rather than damage dealt. Maybe do a few different ones with conditional elements like not taking return damage, being inside a given range, &c. to avoid giving them to heavies/assaults or 1.5km snipers.

We have been asking for that for years......... You see where we are at. However you are correct

Krasnopesky, on 01 May 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

The Cauldron has a lot of light pilot advocates, myself included.

Quirks will be the largest boost in Light 'Mech viability. There are many quirks specifically focused on Light 'Mechs including some large defensive quirk buffs for Lights with very little defensive quirks currently, ammo quirks on some Light 'Mechs to better allow them to bring ammo based builds, and some special new quirks for the true 'bottom of the barrel' Light Mechs.

Snubs are also being changed to less pinpoint damage and more splash damage which will help alleviate some people's concerns over pinpoint damage.

I personally have not had a great deal of problems piloting Light Mechs as a solo player in QP. The same concepts of not exposing your Mech unnecessarily, attacking from the flanks, choosing your battles wisely, always be moving etc still apply.

Honestly unless your talking about Urbie style defensive quirks I do not know if that is the complete way to go. Do not get me wrong I damn well want my armor back on my Jenners arms.... While defensive and ammo quirks will be welcomed it comes down to damage is king. Currently the only way to get paid is damage. When it comes to damage, heavier chasis just do it far easier with less risk and less skill and are able to advance quicker. See where I am going with this?

Edited by Darian DelFord, 01 May 2021 - 09:29 AM.

[Maugged]

Alexander of Macedon, on 01 May 2021 - 06:46 AM, said:

Yes. In case you missed the point, lights are my favorite weight class and contain almost every mech I love.

Sometimes you get one-tapped through sheer bad luck, it happens. If it happens consistently, that's user error.

And where did anyone stated they were constantly one shotted? They just discussed about being one shotted more since the "cauldron revamp" which boosted weapons. The mech that carries more weapons than them are now having it easier to kill them. It's a fact based on logic not personnal feelings. Boosting weapons will always profit those who have the most weapons and highest alpha. Common sense.

Edited by Maugged, 01 May 2021 - 09:35 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Darian DelFord, on 01 May 2021 - 08:45 AM, said:

Lights have been suffering since the great "rescale" Honestly the 800m 60+ point PFLD was a thing, but only if you were standing still. That is a moot point, the problem is that same 60+ point PPFLD could be done at 100 meters as well THAT was the problem.

If you could deal 60pt PPLFD @ 800m... What relevance does 100m have? That same 800m can of course be done at, 100m.

Come on man....

Mobility, Quirks and Rescale are all coming in 2021. The first 2 Cauldron can control. The latter is on PGI and they will confirm the ETA when they set it I would imagine.

Until then - as with the last 4 years - peeps are just gonna have to wait a few months more.

Calling out the Cauldron with a "what are you gonna do" is a bit sensationalist in light of what the Cauldron has already done and is working on.

The roadmap and plan is set and we can only work within that plan.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 01 May 2021 - 10:57 AM.

[Capt Deadpool]

Krasnopesky, on 01 May 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

The Cauldron has a lot of light pilot advocates, myself included.

Quirks will be the largest boost in Light 'Mech viability. There are many quirks specifically focused on Light 'Mechs including some large defensive quirk buffs for Lights with very little defensive quirks currently, ammo quirks on some Light 'Mechs to better allow them to bring ammo based builds, and some special new quirks for the true 'bottom of the barrel' Light Mechs.

Snubs are also being changed to less pinpoint damage and more splash damage which will help alleviate some people's concerns over pinpoint damage.

I personally have not had a great deal of problems piloting Light Mechs as a solo player in QP. The same concepts of not exposing your Mech unnecessarily, attacking from the flanks, choosing your battles wisely, always be moving etc still apply.

Great to hear you and other Cauldroners main lights, Krasno! I don't see you in-game too often so I was not aware.

And yes that is an absolute indisputable fact that light pilot survival/success relies heavily upon utilizing angles, taking advantage of terrain features to protect vulnerabilities such as legs, knowing when to press and when to retreat, etc. These are all 'best practices' and anyone who is not doing this would not have lasted long even before the patch.

I would say, however, that The Cauldron, perhaps with input from the community, needs to make a philosophical decision with regard to the light class: is the intention to keep it a class that will perpetually be the least-used, lowest performing, and least-impactful class relative to others in the hands of a typical pilot, or is the intention for lights to achieve parity with the impactfulness of other classes in the hands of your typical pilot?

And while I can agree with you that I am not particularly having any 'great deal of problems' piloting lights since the patch, neither you or I are good barometers for the typical light pilot experience. The fact remains that the velocity buffs (and planned future agility quirks) have been and will be net nerfs to what is already the least-played and lowest performing class. I, of course, am not privy to The Cauldron's planned defensive quirks for lights, but I remain skeptical that anything except a significant reduction in hitbox sizes for most lights will do anything to mitigate their lack of firepower and innate fragility relative to other mechs and put them at parity with the effectiveness of mediums, heavies, and assaults on the battlefield in the hands of a typical pilot.