14 replies to this topic

[Commander James Raynor]

So what is it with the matchmaker and the weight distribution between teams?
I've played so many games lately where my team is so much lighter than the enemy's. Just now I played one where the enemy had 5 assaults (real assaults, like ANH) and I was the heaviest on my team with 75 tons. And it's not only the assault count, but the total weight of the teams is WAY different. I know, I've counted.

I'm sure it happens the other way around too, but I only notice it when is prejudicial to me.

What's the deal with that? Why doesn't the matchmaker make even an effort to match the weight of the mechs? Is this working as intended?

[Commander James Raynor]

I disagree. It may be because I'm not skilled enough, but I can't overcome such a difference in tonnage, and neither can my team, because that's why I'm making a fuss: we got roflstomped all these times.

[Leone]

Different mechs have different uses. If one team drops nothing but Direwolves, I'd expect a mixed team to be able to out manouver and circle them, getting flanking and back shots, herding them into the assaults line of fire and eventually winning. Granted, it might be a rough fight if the Direwhale pilot's know what they're doing, but there is something to be said for mobility.

It's not all about the weight.

~Leone.

[HauptmanT]

Commander James Raynor, on 12 July 2021 - 12:05 PM, said:

I disagree. It may be because I'm not skilled enough, but I can't overcome such a difference in tonnage, and neither can my team, because that's why I'm making a fuss: we got roflstomped all these times.

Grab a clanner ice fridge. Give it 4 srm4s. Hunt fatties. Git Guud (thats how I did it.)

The game works more as a rock paper scissors thing than tonnage to tonnage. A speedy light will absolutely destroy an assault 1v1. Your tonnage means death vs 60 LRM tubes being launched at you, if you cant make it to cover.

Personally I prefer the balance of a heavy or medium. Mobility and some armor for when I make a mistake. Seeing more fatties on the other team just means more match score to farm. As I can put insane amounts of firepower on these mechs, and be able to bob and weave when needed.

TL;DR Working as intended.

Edited by HauptmanT, 12 July 2021 - 01:29 PM.

[East Indy]

I wouldn't say working as intended so much as functioning as feasible. In Mixed Queue, groups have leeway with weight classes to begin with, and multiple 2-mans can result in a lot of assaults on one side with no guarantee that opposing groups msde the same choice.

It's common sense to try to eliminate as many factors of imbalance as possible, especially when things like spawns and even maps themselves are being altered in part to that end, but it seems like fashionable thing to do when someone raises your valid complaint is focus on when badly undertonned teams pull out a victory -- and make it out as if you're not tryharding enough.

[HauptmanT]

They have to balance perfection with queue times.

Often I hover over the QP button and see "13% light, 20% med, 20% heavy, 47% assault." or some other gross imballance.
We arent dealing with reason and logic here... we are trying to make the irrational choices of the player base work.

[Heavy Money]

Commander James Raynor, on 12 July 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

So what is it with the matchmaker and the weight distribution between teams?
I've played so many games lately where my team is so much lighter than the enemy's. Just now I played one where the enemy had 5 assaults (real assaults, like ANH) and I was the heaviest on my team with 75 tons. And it's not only the assault count, but the total weight of the teams is WAY different. I know, I've counted.

I'm sure it happens the other way around too, but I only notice it when is prejudicial to me.

What's the deal with that? Why doesn't the matchmaker make even an effort to match the weight of the mechs? Is this working as intended?

To actually answer the question, its because the matchmaker prioritizes matching based on PSR over weight, and because Groups are weighted (heh) based on their potential weight, not what they actually brought. So if a group doesn't fill their tonnage, it can under ton the team. And then of course, it also has to deal with what available players are in.

But, theoretically at least, if you see an imbalanced game, then the lighter team is likely grouped and/or higher PSR.

[Disclaimer: We have very little info from PGI about how the MM actually works under the hood, and I'm just repeating what I've heard others say.]

Edited by Heavy Money, 12 July 2021 - 01:53 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

Again my team was killed by
https://leaderboard....h?u=DAEDALOS513

They use some secret that allow top tier 1 fight against tier 3 all time. I am always against him.

[Bud Crue]

Commander James Raynor, on 12 July 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

What's the deal with that? Why doesn't the matchmaker make even an effort to match the weight of the mechs? Is this working as intended?

To try and answer your actual question, rather than debate the merits of lights vs assaults -ahem- "the deal" is that the MM appears to only be trying to match tier distribution between teams, and even this humble task is confused by the presence of 2-4 mans dropping. The MM -I think- treats groups as being entirely composed of the person who has the highest tier in that group. Anecdotally, we have found that if we drop as say,two 3-mans, we will rarely ever get dropped into the same match if all our tier one members are on one side and non-tier one players are on the other, but if we split to have at least one tier one play on each team we have a much greater chance of dropping in the same match (about 75% of the time on opposing teams).

Now tonnage gets messed up because often times groups will not maximize their tonnage and instead all run mechs of the same type or style (e.g. wolf packing as lights, fast heavies, pop-tarting Veagles, etc.), or appropriate to a theme (e.g. a three person group running a couple of LRM boats and a narc light). All it takes is one 4-man running lights on one side, and just random chance on the other, then the other side is likely to have more assaults. It can potentially get worse the more groups that there are present in the queue (at some point or distribution it would even out I suppose).

In other words: it's a crap shoot tonnage-wise, and the presence of small groups makes it even more of a crap shoot (again, -I think-).

Edited by Bud Crue, 12 July 2021 - 02:07 PM.

[Zordicron]

Yeah this happens.
Working as intended, but only because player pop is low enough to require it. Same with why soup exists anyway.
It can happen both ways.
last night I had a match where we had one assault, a Battlemaster, one Orion, and then the rest were mediums and lights.
They had an Orion also, 2 lights(arctic cheetah) 2 sunspiders(wierd, two in one match!) and then an Anni, Fatlas, Stalker, two corsairs.... you get the idea.

later i had a drop where the enemy 4 man decided to do a lulz Urbie drop. Yeah it was pretty lulz, was one of those matches where your team trips over the top of each other trying to get a shot in before the targets are gone.

People will say "git gud" and "use tactics" and that's fine and in a way it is true, but it is soup/QP, so it's not exactly like that's how reality works out. Mostly, you can be "gud" but you still have to have most of your team pull double duty to overcome the armor difference. That's the real issue with it all, it's just expecting to much from soup/QP to do that.

But that's how it is, want a change? Get like 50 of your friends to join and tell them to get 50 friends and maybe wait times will go down and they can re-instate some controls.

EDIT: Bud up above me here pretty much nailed it.

Edited by Zordicron, 12 July 2021 - 02:08 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Saved By The Bell, on 12 July 2021 - 02:02 PM, said:

Again my team was killed by
https://leaderboard....h?u=DAEDALOS513

They use some secret that allow top tier 1 fight against tier 3 all time. I am always against him.

There's no secret. The MM will pull in people of up to 2 tiers away when it can't fill a match with people of the same tier(I think its 2, might be only 1, but same result). If it begins to create a match based around a t1 group, it can go down to t3 to fill it if not enough t1 and t2 can be found. If it creates a match around a t3 player/group, it can go as low as t5 and as high as t1. And given that there are far more players in lower tiers than in higher, it generally won't manage to match up t1 vs only other t1's all the time.

Bud Crue, on 12 July 2021 - 02:04 PM, said:

The MM -I think- treats groups as being entirely composed of the person who has the highest tier in that group.

I've heard this too, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the case. I often play with friends in lower tiers, and we have tested to see if we saw higher tier enemies more often based on who the group leader was, but we have not. This is anecdotal of course, but I'd bet its just averaging the group skills or something.

Edited by Heavy Money, 12 July 2021 - 02:29 PM.

[Saved By The Bell]

OMG.

I didnt hate him, his was in Urbi and killed 5, last minutes he was 1 against 3 and killed all...

Just its a bit not fun.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 12 July 2021 - 02:47 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Heavy Money, on 12 July 2021 - 02:28 PM, said:

I've heard this too, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the case. I often play with friends in lower tiers, and we have tested to see if we saw higher tier enemies more often based on who the group leader was, but we have not. This is anecdotal of course, but I'd bet its just averaging the group skills or something.

Our "testing" was done when we have a 5-8 man running so we are split into two teams. We've even had times with several T5 players and every time we have just one T1 on each team we start syncing. It doesn't seem matter what the rest of the respective teams are composed of. As soon as we go from a T1 (and whatever) vs any other combination of non T1 players we stop getting matches together.

But honestly you could be right, becasue there are also days where even when we run by the above split the T1's guideline, we still won't sync. It could be that in those instances there is are other groups playing that match our respective average PSRs better, and that's why we don't get drops together. Anyway, like I said, It's always a crap shoot, but that pattern of having evenings of more often than not having synced (but opposed) matches as long as we have one T1 on each team, is something we have observed over months of trying different variables. Nothing else is as consistent. Related: as best as we can figure, the optimal arrangement to sync together, and get on the same team, appears to be by running as a three-man and a two-man with 1 T1 on each team.

[Tarl Cabot]

The Soup queue is utilizing previous Group MM, so it wasnt combining the group with the Solos, it was combining the Solos with Group play.

1. Remove group tonnage limits and change to 1 mech/class
2. Allow only 2-man to double up on a team, put 3-man in same category as 4-man, or remove 4-man completely
3. Allow the above to cook for a month/two then review switching the MM to the original Solo queue setup, ie matching weigh class for the team as a whole, groups themselves do not need to be matched up for weight class
4. Need confirmation Highest Tier is used to seed groups, not an average of said group.

The above is based on the belief (assumption) that a drop will only have groups if the groups are used to seed the teams. If a drop is seeded by two solo players then no groups in that drop.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 July 2021 - 07:02 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Many New players use Assaults ,and tahts a big mistake ,or lights was the same ..both not really the best Class for New Players, and the most in lights and Assaults dies in seconds when make a Error.
Mediums and heavys the Points for a Win with Teamplay,Tactical Awarness, Minimap, R Button , UAVs, Experience with Weapons (IS LRM Boats helpless under 180m) and Mechs...other Factors, Backstanders thats use the Team as Meatshield,AFKs,and DCs.

its not like other FPS who each new Player with the best Gun make his own kills..without teamplay ,each mech is scrap

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 12 July 2021 - 08:52 PM.