34 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Surefoot, on 30 May 2021 - 11:21 PM, said:

They did rotate as a group though. Not the caterpillar-of-stupid that leaves the heaviest part of your team die a painful death in the rear as they are doomed to either turn and fight a losing battle, or try and run but get shot in the back. Nascar in QP is specifically people going as fast as they can creating this conga line you see in most losing matches.
New canyon is not as egregious in that way as say, Caustic, but people still do laps around the map on the side canyons, or in some cases engage into that d4 ramp and find out there's no cover near the exit (as opposed to the old version) and get killed in there by opposing team that takes the high ground.

No, they rotated because the weak were placed on the left and they gave way/died while the right side killed and pushed.

For some reason, the strong gravitated to being on the right side of the formation. It's human nature.

[Surefoot]

Nightbird, on 30 May 2021 - 11:29 PM, said:

No, they rotated because the weak were placed on the left and they gave way/died while the right side killed and pushed.

For some reason, the strong gravitated to being on the right side of the formation. It's human nature.

You understand that Mechwarrior has a completely different kind of dynamics right ? Wounded soldiers just stop (if they are wounded enough) while a battlemech will continue to move and bear its whole firepower until it's destroyed, which takes almost always quite a few more shots than a fleshy human soldier. Keeping the highest combined armor and firepower facing the opfor is the numbers game of battletech / mechwarrior. Invoking completely irrelevant battle tactics from history doesnt server any purpose but to sideline the basic issue of QP players splitting their team and getting stomped.

[Nightbird]

History... Learn... Repeat... Something

[Leone]

Must not've been important. I'm sure it wont come up again.

~Leone.

[Bowelhacker]

Nightbird, on 30 May 2021 - 11:29 PM, said:

No, they rotated because the weak were placed on the left and they gave way/died while the right side killed and pushed.

For some reason, the strong gravitated to being on the right side of the formation. It's human nature.

The tyranny of righthandedness.

[Brom96]

I would like to be explained how people expect me to hold the line against the major enemy formation while piloting fast mech and ATMs or poptart against the said formation. Do they really expect that I can survive more then 10 seconds of exposure to the whole enemy firing line, even if that long?

Folks, just because you have certain build that is good for some style of playing doesn't mean other will have the same. My natural position is on the flank and I will always try to to reach enemy's back r flank, fire and distract them, drawing away them and their fire from you. However, if you try to follow me in your heavies/assaults, it is not going to work. Just stay put and let us fast movers do our part then swoop in and break the enemy.

However, this is the issue. People follow us in their slow mechs. Then you have nascar.

Now, regarding the topic of the map. Ramps are welcomed change, really. The real problem is general lack of cover on the top (where the teams somehow end most of the time) and the walkways, whose main function seem to be to provide cover. Also they block you from using jump jets to escape the canyon during the fight or to drop to the safety. I have found myself standing on them when I try to back from the charging enemy.

In all, for me the map has more detrimental then positive changes, favoring passive long range engagements int the past month. I won't vote for it, but then, I mostly didn't vote for original either. I just hope its usage will die down and that we shall see it less often.

[martian]

Brom96, on 31 May 2021 - 12:55 AM, said:

Folks, just because you have certain build that is good for some style of playing doesn't mean other will have the same. My natural position is on the flank and I will always try to to reach enemy's back r flank, fire and distract them, drawing away them and their fire from you. However, if you try to follow me in your heavies/assaults, it is not going to work. Just stay put and let us fast movers do our part then swoop in and break the enemy.

I always experience a sad laughter when I am flanking in my 137 km/h Cicada, only to see the rest of the team in their Annihilators and Daishis (48 km/h) attempting to follow.

Brom96, on 31 May 2021 - 12:55 AM, said:

Now, regarding the topic of the map. Ramps are welcomed change, really. The real problem is general lack of cover on the top (where the teams somehow end most of the time) and the walkways, whose main function seem to be to provide cover. Also they block you from using jump jets to escape the canyon during the fight or to drop to the safety. I have found myself standing on them when I try to back from the charging enemy.

You are right: The ramps are real improvement, sure. The problem is that there is no cover up there.

Brom96, on 31 May 2021 - 12:55 AM, said:

In all, for me the map has more detrimental then positive changes, favoring passive long range engagements int the past month. I won't vote for it, but then, I mostly didn't vote for original either. I just hope its usage will die down and that we shall see it less often.

I agree.

[RockmachinE]

Honestly I would like a combination of both.

I feel the new CN is too open and people tend to snipe and camp way more, it promotes stale gameplay. I personally like dynamic brawling and mid to close range action. I find trading at long distances uninteresting.

However the new map has all kinds of ramps and access paths making changes in direction and movement much more interesting.

I'd prefer the old mid map cover with the accessibility of the new map.

But to answer the question directly I actually still like the old one better because it suits more what I find fun.

[Surefoot]

Brom96, on 31 May 2021 - 12:55 AM, said:

However, this is the issue. People follow us in their slow mechs. Then you have nascar.

.. and then you lose and your team get stomped, because the assaults that needed your 2nd line firepower are now getting slammed by a proper group that's pushing them. It's even worse if they actually keep their initial position as they are now alone vs the whole red team while you are busy "flanking manoeuver" around in zimbabwe while the rest of the team are actually engaging, whether they want it or not. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situation for assaults and according to you they can just F off. Been following these "flanks" in fast mechs and did notice that trend exactly every single time on new Canyon map...

[Mochyn Pupur]

Surefoot, on 31 May 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

.. and then you lose and your team get stomped, because the assaults that needed your 2nd line firepower are now getting slammed by a proper group that's pushing them. It's even worse if they actually keep their initial position as they are now alone vs the whole red team while you are busy "flanking manoeuver" around in zimbabwe while the rest of the team are actually engaging, whether they want it or not. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situation for assaults and according to you they can just F off. Been following these "flanks" in fast mechs and did notice that trend exactly every single time on new Canyon map...

What Surefoot said

[Brom96]

Surefoot, on 31 May 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

.. and then you lose and your team get stomped, because the assaults that needed your 2nd line firepower are now getting slammed by a proper group that's pushing them. It's even worse if they actually keep their initial position as they are now alone vs the whole red team while you are busy "flanking manoeuver" around in zimbabwe while the rest of the team are actually engaging, whether they want it or not. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situation for assaults and according to you they can just F off. Been following these "flanks" in fast mechs and did notice that trend exactly every single time on new Canyon map...

Perhaps, but my secondary line firepower mostly lasts, what? 10 to 20 seconds? Sorry, but if that is useful I don't know what to say. Also, I do not play the game to stand and wait for 5 minutes for the enemy to rush our position. I would be of more use actually delivering damage to the enemy. Believe it or not, I can do it during nascar, sure, but the most successful matches were where our line held and fast movers managed to break enemy formation.

[Davegt27]

OP players voted for canyon because it was one of the best maps

could you guys verify this problem with the new canyon

(floating rocks) i just was on the training grounds

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Davegt27, on 01 June 2021 - 12:15 PM, said:

could you guys verify this problem with the new canyon

(floating rocks) i just was on the training grounds

Post this in the feedback thread for Canyon Network

[Mochyn Pupur]

All the new version has done is increase the rate that light packs can wipe out the other sides slower mechs because the nascar mentality has been fully furnished with all the additional ramps and ways to leave the rest of the drop behind.

Lack of decent cover (yes there are now platforms to hide under, but that means taking those mechs out of any reasonable combat field of view) has seen an increase in lrm selection of this map, yes it has, just drop into the majority on none T1 matches and see it at work and the increased use of pop-tarting.

From last night's matches 10 out of 11 drops forced on this abomination by map select, I also saw numerous invisible wall blocking where the old artefacts used to be, folk literally stood still at 200-300m not taking a single piece of damage, but you could see splay damage covering open air, i.e. hitting the area being blocked, not misses disappearing off into the distance.

From a QA perspective, this is now undoubtedly one of the worst maps.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

PeppaPig, on 02 June 2021 - 05:39 AM, said:

All the new version has done is increase the rate that light packs can wipe out the other sides slower mechs because the nascar mentality has been fully furnished with all the additional ramps and ways to leave the rest of the drop behind.

Lack of decent cover (yes there are now platforms to hide under, but that means taking those mechs out of any reasonable combat field of view) has seen an increase in lrm selection of this map, yes it has, just drop into the majority on none T1 matches and see it at work and the increased use of pop-tarting.

From last night's matches 10 out of 11 drops forced on this abomination by map select, I also saw numerous invisible wall blocking where the old artefacts used to be, folk literally stood still at 200-300m not taking a single piece of damage, but you could see splay damage covering open air, i.e. hitting the area being blocked, not misses disappearing off into the distance.

From a QA perspective, this is now undoubtedly one of the worst maps.

my experience down here in t3/4 land is quite the opposite to that;
I have way more freedom to do on that map whatever I want and so does the rest; I see plenty of brawling on it, "sniping", lasvom-trading and yeah, the ever-present-"99%-armor because somebody stood on my foot in the DZ"-lurmers are there, too.

I really like the redesign of this map and haven't found a single thing that is worse than before, but a lot of improvements.
looking forward to the polar-redesign