46 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Simple thing. Canyon - is one of the best maps in this game. So, I just don't think, that it needs any "fixes". Limited mobility - is one of the reasons, why this map is so great. Limited mobility limits NASCAR, death-balling and makes defending easier due to limited amount of attack vectors. So, before changing it, I think we need to test new version first. We all know, that PGI has long history of killing good maps. Forest Colony, River City, Frozen City, Caustic Valley, etc. New versions are useless. Nobody votes for them. Don't make the same mistake with only maps, that are good in this game. If PGI would kill all maps, I wouldn't be able to play this game, even if I would want to occasionally do it.

[John Bronco]

You think Canyon limits nascar?

[MechB Kotare]

What the f... would be the point of fixing broken maps, if they were kept in circulation...?
I disagree. Also we will see if the map gets less votes... after few weeks of implementation, we can talk.

Pgi/cauldron i like the changes, thank you for doing these. HPG manifold next pls

Edited by MechB Kotare, 18 May 2021 - 07:49 AM.

[McGoat]

Current Canyon is one of the best maps in the game... For comp. Pub Q's simply do not have the coordination to take control of angles and the opportunistic positional power spots. Sometimes, like 1/10 games, an experienced player can call the map and hold a few angles and win while everyone ( on that team XD ) has fun; but! the norm is T1 rotating around Epsi ridge or falling into the valley and T2 rotating and pushing Theta ramps resulting in at minimum a 2 lap nascar.

It is bad, HPG is worse though.

Edited by McGoat, 18 May 2021 - 07:49 AM.

[Nightbird]

McGoat, on 18 May 2021 - 07:49 AM, said:

the norm is T1 rotating around Epsi ridge or falling into the valley and T2 rotating and pushing Theta ramps resulting in at minimum a 2 lap nascar.

Give the people what they want, and this is what the pugs want. Take away Nascar/circular brawling and you are going to be making a LOT of the playerbase upset. The occasional Nascar thread here really doesn't reflect the attitude of the pop. Controlling angles, trading, is only enjoyed by a tiny portion of the pop.

[McGoat]

Nightbird, on 18 May 2021 - 08:03 AM, said:

Give the people what they want, and this is what the pugs want. Take away Nascar/circular brawling and you are going to be making a LOT of the playerbase upset. The occasional Nascar thread here really doesn't reflect the attitude of the pop. Controlling angles, trading, is only enjoyed by a tiny portion of the pop.

Considering your general antisocial behavior I highly doubt you have any indication of what "Pugs want" other than a few threads on this forum.

Having called many Canyon games, along with other people I know, I can attest to "Pugs" fully enjoying a match that doesn't devolve into rotating around Theta peaks.

In any case if there's enough of a demand for it I am certain Daeron & Matt will take the suggestion into consideration and possibly get it back into rotation.

[Nightbird]

McGoat, on 18 May 2021 - 08:06 AM, said:

Considering your general antisocial behavior I highly doubt you have any indication of what "Pugs want" other than a few threads on this forum.

And yet somehow I am not the one banned multiple times for toxic behavior... makes you think.

[pattonesque]

Pugs NASCAR because current map design promotes it as the simplest and safest thing for them to do absent a competent drop caller

Change the design of the map and people will NASCAR less

[Gas Guzzler]

Old canyon lets you get shot in the back in 10-15 seconds if you are slow. No thanks.

[Nightbird]

pattonesque, on 18 May 2021 - 08:31 AM, said:

Pugs NASCAR because current map design promotes it as the simplest and safest thing for them to do absent a competent drop caller

Change the design of the map and people will NASCAR less

Agreed, you can change the maps to make NASCAR difficult. The question is, do people prefer to NASCAR or prefer to not? When several maps come up for a vote, with some that ensure/enable NASCAR and some that make it difficult, which maps win the vote?

If you sell both burgers and pizza, and people buy pizza most of the time, then the rational business decision is not to stop selling pizza into order to get your customers to like burgers more. Keep selling both.

[MechB Kotare]

Nightbird, on 18 May 2021 - 08:43 AM, said:

If you sell both burgers and pizza, and people buy pizza most of the time, then the rational business decision is not to stop selling pizza into order to get your customers to like burgers more. Keep selling both.

Indeed, but in this case, map is not the product, game is. If game is kept a frustrating experience for thousands that dont even visit forums for the sake of what? Hundreds +/-? That is a very bad marketing.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 18 May 2021 - 09:29 AM.

[Nightbird]

MechB Kotare, on 18 May 2021 - 08:53 AM, said:

Indeed, but in this case, map is not the product, game is. If game is kept a frustrating experience for thousands that dont even visit forums for tje sake of what? Houndred +/-? That is a very bad marketing.

I believe this is called the "tyranny of the masses". In a population of tens of thousands, because most people prefer NASCAR, the thousands in the minority have to settle for playing their preferred maps less. Yes, the people against NASCAR are the minority, because this is how people vote.

This is one of the cases I think PGI did the right thing, if you don't get your preferred map your vote increases in the next vote. In this way, even in a 60/40 pop split for NASCAR/anti-NASCAR preferences, the anti-NASCAR people will get their preferred map 50% of the time. If it is a 70/30 split, the anti-NASCAR people will get their preferred map 33% of the time. That QP choses non-NASCAR maps less than 33% of the time tells you how small a minority the people that dislike NASCAR is.

[martian]

PGI controls how often some map is offered.

Why simply not keep both maps (the old Canyon and the new Canyon) available, but make the "old" Canyon only a rarely seen map?

[Nightbird]

martian, on 18 May 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

PGI controls how often some map is offered.

Why simply not keep both maps (the old Canyon and the new Canyon) available, but make the "old" Canyon only a rarely seen map?

That would be an interesting experiment, ALWAYS show BOTH versions of the map next to each other in the same map vote. See which people prefer over the course of a month, and keep only that version.

Edited by Nightbird, 18 May 2021 - 09:32 AM.

[martian]

Nightbird, on 18 May 2021 - 09:32 AM, said:

That would be an interesting experiment, ALWAYS show BOTH versions of the map next to each other in the same map vote. See which people prefer over the course of a month, and keep only that version.

I mean, the old Forest Colony and the new Forest Colony are both in the game. Sometimes people vote of one map, the next time for the other. Ditto Frozen City.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 18 May 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

I believe this is called the "tyranny of the masses". In a population of tens of thousands, because most people prefer NASCAR, the thousands in the minority have to settle for playing their preferred maps less. Yes, the people against NASCAR are the minority, because this is how people vote.

This only works if you assume that people vote for those maps because they are NASCAR friendly which isn't necessarily true. I don't even think about NASCAR when I am voting for a map, and when NASCAR does happen, you only see complaints about NASCAR.

When NASCAR doesn't happen, you never see complaints about the lack of NASCAR.

You only see/hear people at the beginning of a match say "Don't NASCAR" or "Let's counter NASCAR"

You never hear people say at the beginning of a match say "Alright let's NASCAR!"

I would argue the reason for the prevalence of Canyon and HPG is not due to NASCAR and is actually due to a predictable map center, and short time-to-engage.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

agree with OP.
there are 70% of all maps that are MUCH worse then now "old" canyon. It could stay in rotation.

[Nightbird]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2021 - 09:37 AM, said:

I would argue the reason for the prevalence of Canyon and HPG is not due to NASCAR and is actually due to a predictable map center, and short time-to-engage.

Both ideas can be tested by offering both the new and old maps side-by-side in the map vote. If Canyon appears, show both, and we'll be better able to tell whether people prefer to NASCAR or to trade/poke.

[MechB Kotare]

Nightbird, on 18 May 2021 - 09:26 AM, said:

I believe this is called the "tyranny of the masses". In a population of tens of thousands, because most people prefer NASCAR, the thousands in the minority have to settle for playing their preferred maps less. Yes, the people against NASCAR are the minority, because this is how people vote.

This is one of the cases I think PGI did the right thing, if you don't get your preferred map your vote increases in the next vote. In this way, even in a 60/40 pop split for NASCAR/anti-NASCAR preferences, the anti-NASCAR people will get their preferred map 50% of the time. If it is a 70/30 split, the anti-NASCAR people will get their preferred map 33% of the time. That QP choses non-NASCAR maps less than 33% of the time tells you how small a minority the people that dislike NASCAR is.

I dont agree. By saying thousands im actually adressing majority of players. This game has around 40k active players if im not mistaken. Most of them are encouraged to nascar, because they dont know any better.

Why is it, that (almost) every game when someone calls counter nascar, or some other map grind, people are willing to do anything other than rotation? And they are actually having positive experience from it, because 5 games in a row they got killed for playing slow assault and spending most of the time trying to catch up with faster mechs instead of shooting the enemy?
You simply wont convince me that majority of MWO population enjoys NASCAR, and they would leave if it wasnt part of this game at all.

Edit: What Gas said.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 18 May 2021 - 09:46 AM.

[Nightbird]

MechB Kotare, on 18 May 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

I dont agree. By saying thousands im actually adressing majority of players. This game has around 40k active players if im not mistaken. Most of them are encouraged to nascar, because they dont know any better.

Why is it, that (almost) every game when someone calls counter nascar, or some other map grind, people are willing to do anything other than rotation? And they are actually having positive experience from it, because 5 games in a row they got killed for playing slow assault and spending most of the time trying to catch up with faster mechs instead of shooting the enemy?
You simply wont convince me that majority of MWO population enjoys NASCAR, and they would leave if it wasnt part of this game at all.

Edit: What Gas said.

Well, you just said that people intellectually don't know they are doing when they vote for a rotato potato map, and I respectfully disagree. I think people know exactly what they are getting, and a few people (the minority) are dragged along and complain.

I didn't say people would quit in any of my posts, I said it's not business smart to stop selling what people buy. You acknowledged that more people vote for NASCAR maps, which is really fricking obvious if you play QP, and that is what I said as well.

Edited by Nightbird, 18 May 2021 - 09:52 AM.