41 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

Acs are better imo as they never jam, Yes when UACs work they are great but that down time is no damage so ACs catch up.

[FaceRipt]

Khobai, on 30 May 2021 - 11:11 AM, said:

its not nonsense. 7 CUAC2s are better than 5 CUAC5s in a tonnage equivalent comparison.

if the direwolf was on par with the blood asp in every other way it would be obvious

5 CUAC5s is 40 tons and have ghost heat if you fire more than 3.

7 CUAC2s is 42 tons but youre doing way more dps, with more range, more velocity, less jamming, and less crit slots. And you can fire all 7 with no ghost heat.

I ran the old tried and true uac/5 build for the dw for a long time and scoffed at the idea of running a uac/2 build, but since acquiring the dire hero mech and running it with 8x uac/2 I have become a believer in its power.

There were too many times were I was completely locked out of firing with the uac/5 build due to all weapons jammed or reduced to pathertic numbers because almost all systems jammed and it happens far too often on the first double fire and then takes forever to clear.

8x uac/2 build is far better in my opinion, faster damage, less jams ( have never been unable to fire due to all systems jammed) and when the jams do happen they don't take an eternity to return to operation.

anyways more dakka is always more fun imo, just my opinions after having played both builds.

Edited by FaceRipt, 01 June 2021 - 06:24 AM.

[Dauntless Blint]

If your arguing for cUAC5's getting buffed can you do the same for IS UAC5's they feel dumb these days.

[Khobai]

Dauntless Blint, on 01 June 2021 - 11:22 PM, said:

If your arguing for cUAC5's getting buffed can you do the same for IS UAC5's they feel dumb these days.

I dont disagree that ISUAC5s/ISUAC10s need buffs too.

I know for certain that CUAC2s are now better than CUAC5s/CUAC10s in virtually all ways.

CUAC2s now have better range, better velocity, less tonnage/crits, more consistency with regards to not jamming up, and do very nearly the same dps and nearly the same damage per burst compared to CUAC5s. CUAC2s also have no ghost heat limits which almost definitively makes them better on mechs that can boat 5+ of them.

CUAC2s are the bomb now. If theyre they new baseline for CUACs then the CUAC5 and CUAC10 definitely need some slight buffs. Which means the IS versions are probably in the same boat.

CUAC20s are also the bomb now. The hunchback IIC with dual UAC20s is a fricking murder machine. Its almost impossible not to get 700 damage in that thing.

But the 5s/10s are underperforming IMO. They stay jammed WAY too long. And the 8s jam on the CUAC10 in particular is absolutely absurd and makes it unusable. Youre better off just taking two CUAC2s instead of one CUAC10 for the same tonnage because at least CUAC2s dont stay jammed forever.

So heres my stats comparison for the CUAC2 and how much better it is than the CUAC5/CUAC10 now. You can see its winning in virtually every single category and the categories it isnt winning in its only very slightly behind.



Using the CUAC2 as the new baseline, my suggestions to balance CUACs better are as follows:

1) remove ghost heat limit on CUAC5s because its quite frankly absurd to have ghost heat on CUAC5s but not CUAC2s
2) reduce the cooldown and heat of the CUAC5 from 1.66 to 1.5 because its base dps compared to the CUAC2. Also lower the heat from 1.66 to 1.5 so its a little more heat efficient compared to the CUAC2.
3) reduce the jam chance on CUAC5 and CUAC10 from 17% to 16% for consistency across the board
4) reduce the jam duration on CUAC5 from 6.5s to 4.75s and reduce jam duration on CUAC10 from 8.0s to 5.75s because the current jam durations are insanely long! How did this get missed by cauldron? 8s? really?

With those changes the CUAC2 is still ahead but the CUAC5 and CUAC10 are much closer in comparison.

Ill look at the IS versions later.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2021 - 02:03 AM.

[Grus]

justcallme A S H, on 29 May 2021 - 01:44 PM, said:

UAC2s jam less... I've been using them a bit. So they are quite nice, you get a mega burst now.

While 1% doesn't sound like much it is over time a nice buff. That and the duration drop.

Sounds like I need to swap my ac2 UV for a Uac now... hated how bad they jammed.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 01 June 2021 - 11:34 PM, said:

I dont disagree that ISUAC5s/ISUAC10s need buffs too.

IS UAC 10/5 are the strongest UACs in the game bar none.

[Lances107]

UACs are better then AC if you burst them. Meaning you dont just keep pressing the fire button as fast as possible. You burst them as you aim, instead of just praying and spraying, you will see improved results. Although the twin AC 20 without ghost heat does open up some interesting options. As far as over boating UAC 2s, you do realize the result right? Ghost heat nerf down the road if you do that too excessively.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 02 June 2021 - 11:32 AM, said:

IS UAC 10/5 are the strongest UACs in the game bar none.

they were. they are not anymore. CUAC2 is now superior to CUAC5 in virtually every way. Anyone who looks at the stats can clearly see that its categorically better in almost every stat. I even posted the stats for ease of comparison.

again the CUAC2 has very nearly the same dps and damage per burst, WAY more range, WAY more velocity, WAY less tonnage and crit slots, WAY less inconsistency due to jamming downtime, AND no ghost heat.

yet you continue to be in denial that the CUAC5 is better? seriously? look at the stats. its clearly not better at all anymore. Its the least performing CUAC as far as ultra dps/ton goes which indicates its jam duration is way too long.

and the CUAC10 is garbage with its 8s jam duration. two CUAC2s are now significantly better than one CUAC10 for the same tonnage.

The only time the CUAC10 is ever better now is if you severely lack the ballistic hardpoints to boat CUAC2s and for some reason (lack of range?) dont want to take a CUAC20. But on any mech that can boat 5+ ballistics the CUAC2 is clearly superior.

Lances107, on 02 June 2021 - 11:42 AM, said:

As far as over boating UAC 2s, you do realize the result right? Ghost heat nerf down the road if you do that too excessively.

it all depends if the CUAC2 is meant to be the new baseline or not.

if the CUAC2 is the new baseline then the CUAC5/CUAC10 definitely need buffs.

if the CUAC2 is too good now then by all means ghost heat nerf it!

But the CUAC2 and CUAC5 are definitely out of parity with eachother. And the CUAC10 having an 8s jam duration and jamming up longer than the CUAC20 not only makes no sense but it makes the CUAC10 highly inconsistent with its ultra dps.

Quote

Although the twin AC 20 without ghost heat does open up some interesting options

as far as im aware its only the hunchback IIC and boiler that can do dual UAC20 without ghost heat.

but the dual CUAC20 hunchback is DEVASTATING. CUAC20s are amazing right now.



I took a look at the ISUAC stats too. Theyre actually fairly balanced with eachother; moreso than the CUACs. The only ISUAC that really stood out as having anything wrong with it was the ISUAC10 and again its the jam duration (7.5s!). Why is its jam duration longer than the ISUAC20s?

Theres something very wrong with UAC10s having longer jam durations than UAC20s.

Long jam durations are horrible they make for inconsistent weapons that arnt fun to use.

Edited by Khobai, 02 June 2021 - 02:24 PM.

[Lances107]

Here it is
from the patch notes[color=#EEEEEE]
AC20 (Clan and IS):[/color]
[color=#EEEEEE]
[/color]

• Heat reduced to 5 (from 6)
  
• Velocity increased to 900 m/s (from 650)
  
• Burst shells decreased to 3 (from 4) (Clan only) --ammo per ton adjusted
  
• Minimum heat penalty level increased to 3 (from 2) – Fire 2 with no penalty. (Clan Only)

[Khobai]

Lances107, on 02 June 2021 - 03:36 PM, said:

Here it is
from the patch notes
AC20 (Clan and IS):

• Heat reduced to 5 (from 6)
  
• Velocity increased to 900 m/s (from 650)
  
• Burst shells decreased to 3 (from 4) (Clan only) --ammo per ton adjusted
  
• Minimum heat penalty level increased to 3 (from 2) – Fire 2 with no penalty. (Clan Only)

Thats the CAC20 not the CUAC20 though. only the hunchie and boiler get HSL +1 for the CUAC20

[Lances107]

Correct, when I was talking about fire two at the same time I said AC 20 not uac. No big deal. At any rate I am very happy with the way the UAC 20 is performing. I was just putting it out there with the AC 20 being able to mount two of them, and firing without ghost heat, should prove interesting.

[Khobai]

i dont think ive ever been inclined to use CAC20s over CUAC20s unfortunately. even if I have to chainfire the CUAC20s they still do double the damage. thats hard to ignore for the minor benefits the CAC20 gives you.

I mean theres a very clear advantage to using the ISAC20 over the ISUAC20 because you get that 20 damage. but its not as clear for CACs vs CUACs. The CAC2 is probably fine but I still think the bigger CACs have a little ways to go before theyre viable alternatives to CUACs.

CACs need lower tonnage in some cases need to take up less crits. Thats the only way id probably consider them.

Edited by Khobai, 03 June 2021 - 01:45 AM.

[Horseman]

MechaGnome, on 30 May 2021 - 06:08 PM, said:

Acs are better imo as they never jam, Yes when UACs work they are great but that down time is no damage so ACs catch up.

Fundamentally incorrect.
For the ACs to "catch up" with UACs in net DPS output (given maxed cooldown in the skill tree and maxed jam duration skills), you need the following amount of cooldown quirks specific to that AC caliber:
IS-AC2: 18.5%
IS-AC5: 15.5%
IS-AC10: 9.5%
IS-AC20: 28%
C-AC2: 13.5%
C-AC5: 6.5%
C-AC10: 7%
C-AC20: 30.5%

As you might note, there are very few mechs with sufficient AC-specific quirks to do that - Annihilator 1A, Fang and Highlander 733 are pretty much it.
It's also possible to "catch up" with a smaller specific quirk if paired with a large-ish generic quirk (which will advantage the ACs more than the UACs), eg on the Centurion 9A, Dragon 1N or La Malinche.
But that's all the mechs that can do that. On anything else, the UACs beat out the ACs in both the long and short race.

[Wildstreak]

Moldur, on 30 May 2021 - 05:13 PM, said:

Just remember that chainfiring activates the same UAC instead of going to the next one in the chain. Any chain fired groups you have, split them into 2 non overlapping groups. It's kinda annoying.

Incorrect, I have chain fired UACs and this does not activate the same one. It actually led me to find the flaw with all multi-shot UACs (Clan UAC5, both UAC10s and UAC20s) I will do a video on later today showing the problem.

[il1il]

I have noticed that clan uac10s can jam in pairs far more often than seems statistically likely. but only on certain mechs. not on the madcat but on the summoner, this has been like this as long as I have played. maybe a torso bug?

[Khobai]

the reason why clan UAC10s jam up in pairs more often is because of their absurd 8s jam time.

so youre far more likely to have the second UAC10 jam up while the first one is still jammed just because they stay jammed so long.

8s jam time is absolutely insane and needs to be reduced.

[il1il]

no i mean they seem to jam in the same press more often than they should if it were random.

[Dauntless Blint]

tomzah, on 04 June 2021 - 12:43 PM, said:

Yep. When I have 2x uac 10 in same group, about 80% of time I jam on a double tap it's both guns rather than just one... I smell some foul algorithms are at play here...

I think they share the same dice roll sometimes instead of 2 seperate rolls splitting the chances but it's just a feeling.

And for IS UAC5's it feels like I'm allowed one double tap and then it forces a 2 cycle cooldown without jamming before being allowed to fire again.

I just get the feeling that they can't sustain anymore like in the old days when I used to aim at firing again at about 75% of the total cool down instead of trying to burst until jamming and overheating.
It's fine if your platform can peek and poke but on fat boys and girls it's a problem.

In the old days if you cycled 4 in sequence and fired an alpha on the 4th shot, #4 would have a realised 75% chance to jam, #3 a realise 50% chance to jam, #2 would have a realised 25% chance to jam and #1 would have the base chance to jam.
I'm not saying these are mathematical facts but it's how I figured out how to get the most out of them long ago. For whatever reason this doesn't apply anymore, I used to apply my muscle memory and drummer timing to good effect. It's lost now.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 04 June 2021 - 10:55 PM.

[Quandoo]

I also think it's bugged. UAC20 on my supernova boiler started jamming every 2nd shot. Before it jammed only like 10 shots. Both weapons in group jam mostly at same time

Edited by Quandoo, 05 June 2021 - 12:42 AM.

[il1il]

Dauntless Blint, on 04 June 2021 - 10:29 PM, said:

I think they share the same dice roll sometimes instead of 2 seperate rolls splitting the chances but it's just a feeling.

I doubt it since it seems to happen randomly independently but also jam more often on the pull as opposed to off pull. It seems like a strange coincidence. I have suspected for a while that it is a bug because you shoot clan uac10s/5s on serrate fire groups for the madcat for example. I just remembered thats why it doesn't jam as often.