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Why Cant We Just Have Faster Dakka Mechs?


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#1 InvictusLee

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 05:27 PM

So. Lemme spitball here for a second: Im playing mw5 through the campaign again, finally found my anni-1x again and suddenly remembered why i hate this mech so much: Its too friggen slow!
Im all about lore and stiff, but heres the thing: Most of the mechs that can boat 4 lbx10'/5's are all assaultmechs that go from 32kph to maybe 40kph?

WHY CANT I JUST HAVE A CHASSIS THAT CAN BOAT 4 LBX10'S AND DO A REASONABLE 60-75KPH WITH A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF AMMO IN THE RANGE OF 7 TO 10 TONS?!

man idc if such a mech looks like an ubie on stilts abd 3 extra cannons ducktapped on, ID TAKE IT!

So, my fellow mech jocks. What would you imagine such a mech looking like? I invite you to theory craft to your heart's delight and throw up meme trashcans with guns on them. I just gotta know, why cant dakka be free of crippling slow speed? Also, we are not talking about current inuniverse mechs but rather, something that you, the community thought of!

So hit me with your best shot!
I promise you are not gonna crit and blow a side torso.

Edited by November11th, 01 June 2021 - 05:28 PM.


#2 Leone

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 05:29 PM

But the Piranha. So much dakka. So much speed.

~Leone.

#3 Heavy Money

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 05:29 PM

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 05:27 PM, said:

So. Lemme spitball here for a second: Im playing mw5 through the campaign again, finally found my anni-1x again and suddenly remembered why i hate thos mech so kuch: Its too friggen slow!
Im all about lore and stiff, but heres the thing: Most of the mechs that can boat 4 lbx10'/5's are all assaultmechs that go from 32kph to maybe 40kph?

WHY CANT I JUST HAVE A CHASSIS THAT CAN BOAT 4 LBX10'S AND DO A REASONABLE 60-75KPH WITH A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF AMMO IN THE RANGE OF 7 TO 10 TONS?!

man idc if such a mech looks like an ubie on stilts abd 3 extra cannons ducktapped on, ID TAKE IT!

So, my fellow mech jocks. What would you imagine such a mech looking like? I invite you to theory craft to your heart's delight and throw up meme trashcans with guns on them. I just gotta know, why cant dakka be free of crippling slow speed? Also, we are not talking about current inuniverse mechs but rather, something that you, the community thought of!

So hit me with your best shot!
I promise you are not gonna crit and blow a side torso.


It looks like this. Even has a few tons left to play with:
KDK-3

What we really need though is the short barreled versions of various ACs. The ones with much less range, but that weigh less. This would allow for faster but shorter range ballistic boats, and for lights and mediums to run more versatile ballistic loadouts.

Edited by Heavy Money, 01 June 2021 - 05:34 PM.


#4 Khobai

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 06:17 PM

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 05:27 PM, said:

WHY CANT I JUST HAVE A CHASSIS THAT CAN BOAT 4 LBX10'S AND DO A REASONABLE 60-75KPH WITH A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF AMMO IN THE RANGE OF 7 TO 10 TONS?!


That exists. Its called the Kodiak. It do x4 LBX10 and go 55-60kph depending if you put x4 lasers on or not.

You can also do a Blood Asp that goes 64kph with x3 CLBX10 and a x1 CLBX5 but ammo is kindve limited.

You could theoretically do a x2 LBX10 and x2 LBX5 Night Gyr as well. And the same on a Madcat MK2.

Any build like that is gonna have to be a clan mech though because you cant do it without CXL.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2021 - 06:28 PM.


#5 InvictusLee

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 07:58 PM

View PostKhobai, on 01 June 2021 - 06:17 PM, said:


That exists. Its called the Kodiak. It do x4 LBX10 and go 55-60kph depending if you put x4 lasers on or not.

You can also do a Blood Asp that goes 64kph with x3 CLBX10 and a x1 CLBX5 but ammo is kindve limited.

You could theoretically do a x2 LBX10 and x2 LBX5 Night Gyr as well. And the same on a Madcat MK2.

Any build like that is gonna have to be a clan mech though because you cant do it without CXL.

View PostKhobai, on 01 June 2021 - 06:17 PM, said:


That exists. Its called the Kodiak. It do x4 LBX10 and go 55-60kph depending if you put x4 lasers on or not.

You can also do a Blood Asp that goes 64kph with x3 CLBX10 and a x1 CLBX5 but ammo is kindve limited.

You could theoretically do a x2 LBX10 and x2 LBX5 Night Gyr as well. And the same on a Madcat MK2.

Any build like that is gonna have to be a clan mech though because you cant do it without CXL.
Here's the thing: There is no good reason as to why a mech needs to be 80-100 tons to run 40 points of damage from autocannons. They are too heavy, and mechs that should be able to boat them reasonably well, cant.

Also, im talking specifically about what a fan made mech would look like, if it had 4lbx10's, 7 tons of ammo and the ability to stay with the pack.

Clan mechs run on fairy dust anyway. They really dont make much sense, and it doesnt make reasonable sense as to why the innersphere cant copy their tech nut for bolt, when as if the last time i checked, all BT mechs use the same metal and circuitry and muscle.

Point is; There needs to be a dedicated mech, both clan and IS, in the 50-75 tonnage range that can boat 4 medium sized cannons and nothing else aside from the engine, ammo, and armor.

I mean; why CANT it exist?
Because its OP? Remember it takes an assault mech to put out 40 points of damage using cannons. Laser vomit on just about any mech can out damage that in seconds. Then you have the missile junkies like me who like boating all the SRM6's on a linebacker, which is like 60/5 ish tons(please correct me, i forgot the tonnage) and can out damage 40 points with one alpha, if it gets a second one off, your mech is already dead. So i dont see the point as to why all the fun dakka is preserved on the heavier chassies, not including the piranha because 12hmgs is cheating no matter how you slice it.

I also own all the mechs as mentioned above so i am somewhat aware of their abilities xD.

So does that make this idea, the Urbie IIC if all i want is more guns, taller legs and alot faster?

#6 Heavy Money

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:01 PM

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 07:54 PM, said:

I mean; why CANT it exist?
Because its OP? Remember it takes an assault mech to put out 40 points of damage using cannons. Laser vomit on just about any mech can out damage that in seconds. Then you have the missile junkies like me who like boating all the SRM6's on a linebacker, which is like 60/5 ish tons(please correct me, i forgot the tonnage) and can out damage 40 points with one alpha, if it gets a second one off, your mech is already dead. So i dont see the point as to why all the fun dakka is preserved on the heavier chassies, not including the piranha because 12hmgs is cheating no matter how you slice it.


Yeah, because its OP. Those things you are comparing it to all have their own downsides. Laser vomit is super hot, has burn duration, and less range on the ERMLs that are normally used. SRMs are hot, have half the range, no range past optimal, and even worse spread.

LBXs are heavy, but have no heat and pretty good range, and lots of bonus damage from crits once they get into structure.

4xLB10Xs on the Cyclops and Fafnir and Annihilator are top loadouts, even with them only going 40-50kph. How are you thinking that an already good loadout can get 50% more speed and be run ~25tons lighter and NOT be broken? You have to completely forget the differences of these other weapon types you are comparing to.

3xLB10X can be done on multiple heavy mechs and is a solid loadout.

Edited by Heavy Money, 01 June 2021 - 08:01 PM.


#7 InvictusLee

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:08 PM

I mean. We COULD just adjust them so they arnt OP.
Like shorter range or more heat; like give them snub noses and cluster bombs.
Super hot, super effective, super short range?

I just like running around popping people xD.

Also laser vomit can be made to be super cold by offsetting with heat sinks. Im just saying, there has to be an easier way to get 40 points of spread damage out of a cannon, that doesnt limit one to super heavy mechs.

LB20's are not a valid arguement btw; because it defeats the whole exercise.

#8 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:11 PM

Shorter range and more heat? You’ve just described snub nose PPCs. Enjoy.

#9 InvictusLee

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:14 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 01 June 2021 - 08:11 PM, said:

Shorter range and more heat? You’ve just described snub nose PPCs. Enjoy.
that made me giggle.

On that note, I kinda wanna see Plasma PPC's and chem lasers make it into mwo. It would be very different.

#10 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:33 PM

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 08:14 PM, said:

On that note, I kinda wanna see Plasma PPC's and chem lasers make it into mwo. It would be very different.

I kinda do, but I kinda don’t. The weapons in the 3060’s and 3070’s were hard to balance. I’m sure we could deal with Plasma weapons, blue shield tech, bombast lasers, x-pulse lasers and Thunderbolt missiles. But hyper assault gauss rifles and light autocannons would be a challenge to balance to say the least, as would mag pulse munitions and TSEMP cannons. And if PGI has given up on an ammo switch for LBX autocannons, there’s no way they could implement multi-missile launchers or PPC capacitors.

#11 InvictusLee

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 08:40 PM

Well, i think that issue is partly due to spaghetti code.
The cauldron though, has given me hope that if it can be imagined, it can be fixed, nerfed or buffed.
The HAG wouldnt actually work in mwo, however, if mwo was more like traditional mmorpg's ahere you could roam the map as you pleased, then i can see it being a very effective raid weapon against some crazy comstar or word of blake experiment.

Dude, I just realized, that IF mwo had mech tasers that worked like narcs, but freezes your mech for a few seconds instead, the mene builds would be epic!



Maybe mwo needs to stop being so damn serious and embrace the silly things from the BT world too.

#12 Heavy Money

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 09:17 PM

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 08:08 PM, said:

I mean. We COULD just adjust them so they arnt OP.
Like shorter range or more heat; like give them snub noses and cluster bombs.
Super hot, super effective, super short range?

I just like running around popping people xD.

Also laser vomit can be made to be super cold by offsetting with heat sinks. Im just saying, there has to be an easier way to get 40 points of spread damage out of a cannon, that doesnt limit one to super heavy mechs.

LB20's are not a valid arguement btw; because it defeats the whole exercise.


Yeah what you're looking for is short barreled ACs, like I mentioned before.
These would be easy for them to add as they don't even really need a name model.

#13 Khobai

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 09:26 PM

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 07:58 PM, said:

Here's the thing: There is no good reason as to why a mech needs to be 80-100 tons to run 40 points of damage from autocannons. They are too heavy, and mechs that should be able to boat them reasonably well, cant.


yes there is. heat.

autocannons weigh a lot because they generate considerably less heat than other weapons.

youre not paying all that tonnage just for 40 damage. youre paying all that tonnage for 40 damage that ALSO generates very little heat.

But I will say that LBX kindve sucks and could use a decent buff. ACs/UACs are just generally better.

And yes there should be more lightweight ballistic weapons in the game like light ACs, mech rifles, protomech autocannons, etc... However the heavier ballistic weapons weigh as much as they do for a reason.

Quote

Also laser vomit can be made to be super cold by offsetting with heat sinks. Im just saying, there has to be an easier way to get 40 points of spread damage out of a cannon, that doesnt limit one to super heavy mechs.


Laser vomit is never as super cold as ballistics though. Even with 22+ DHS. You cant alpha forever with lasers, eventually you have to duck behind cover to cool down. Ballistic loadouts can fire almost indefinitely without overheating. That makes ballistics absolutely dominant when you push enemy mechs out in the open because you never have to stop firing.

When it comes to damage per heat generated ballistics are king.

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 08:40 PM, said:

The HAG wouldnt actually work in mwo, however, if mwo was more like traditional mmorpg's ahere you could


I agree HAGs wouldnt work well in MWO.

They should focus instead on adding lightweight ballistic weapons to the game so light and medium mechs have more ballistic options. Mech rifles, protomech autocannons, and light ACs would all be game changers in MWO. Clan RACs would also fall into the category of lightweight ballistics since they weigh 2 tons less than their IS counterparts.

Quote

And if PGI has given up on an ammo switch for LBX autocannons, there’s no way they could implement multi-missile launchers or PPC capacitors.


I believe they can implement ammo switching. I dont think theyve explored creative ways of doing it.

PGI is right that its probably impossible for one weapon to switch between two different fire modes with two different ammo types.

However what if equipping an LBX added two different weapons to your mech's weapon list? Both a LBX and a Regular AC. And then linked them together in such a way that they couldnt both be fired within X seconds of eachother. Thats effectively the same thing as ammo switching; youd have two different weapons, using two different ammo types, but only one could be fired at a time. And they would both share the same crit slot for purposes of being critted as well as share the same weapon mesh.

Similarly an MML could add a separate SRM launcher and an LRM launcher to your weapons list. But firing one would disable the other from being fired for X seconds. Where X would be the cooldown of the weapon.

I definitely dont think PGI has explored workarounds to ammo switching. They just told us no because they didnt want to do it lol.

As for PPC Capacitors they dont really require weapon switching. PPC capacitors could simply be an entirely new weapon called PPC+Capacitor that weighs an extra ton and extra crit. They could use a game mechanic similar to gauss chargeup and do bonus damage and extra heat proportional to how much theyre charged before they fire.

Edited by Khobai, 01 June 2021 - 10:15 PM.


#14 Gagis

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 10:02 PM

What you want is a heavy or Victor with 3LB10. Those are strong too.

#15 Horseman

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 10:38 PM

View PostNovember11th, on 01 June 2021 - 05:27 PM, said:

Im all about lore and stiff, but heres the thing: Most of the mechs that can boat 4 lbx10'/5's are all assaultmechs that go from 32kph to maybe 40kph?
WHY CANT I JUST HAVE A CHASSIS THAT CAN BOAT 4 LBX10'S AND DO A REASONABLE 60-75KPH WITH A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF AMMO IN THE RANGE OF 7 TO 10 TONS?!
Mad Cat MK II and the Kodiak can do it.

#16 martian

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Posted 01 June 2021 - 10:46 PM

You would need the Cygnus.

If it can run four HAG-20s, it can also run four LBX-10s.

Posted Image

#17 InvictusLee

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:29 AM

View Postmartian, on 01 June 2021 - 10:46 PM, said:

You would need the Cygnus.

If it can run four HAG-20s, it can also run four LBX-10s.

Posted Image
HELLLLLZZZ YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSS /Drool



#18 InvictusLee

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:34 AM

View PostKhobai, on 01 June 2021 - 09:26 PM, said:

However what if equipping an LBX added two different weapons to your mech's weapon list? Both a LBX and a Regular AC. And then linked them together in such a way that they couldnt both be fired within X seconds of eachother. Thats effectively the same thing as ammo switching; youd have two different weapons, using two different ammo types, but only one could be fired at a time. And they would both share the same crit slot for purposes of being critted as well as share the same weapon mesh.


They could actually solve that issue easily with a dedicated toggle button or put a toggle in like that of the Artemis button in the mechlab.

#19 Khobai

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:35 AM

View PostNovember11th, on 02 June 2021 - 12:34 AM, said:

They could actually solve that issue easily with a dedicated toggle button or put a toggle in like that of the Artemis button in the mechlab.


yeah maybe. the point is weapon switching is totally doable. PGI just lyin :P

#20 VeeOt Dragon

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 10:59 AM

have you ever seen a cannon up close. look at a 155 howitzer, even without an automatic loading system the thing is heavy. now take something like that (i would think an AC/5 would be close in bore to a 155 but i might be mistaken). now add in more recoil suppression (so firing it doesn't knock the mech over), a robust auto loading system, and the bracing so that it doesn't break free of its housing and you have not only quite a bit of mass but also a good bit of space taken up by the unit. any mech that is going to carry that is going to be bulky and heavy unless its got paper armor. also take into account hop much space each round of ammunition takes up even if its caseless (one of the reasons i question why Gauss a ammo has so few rounds per ton, i know its for balance reasons but still)

i know Battletech uses a good deal of "space Magic" to make things work but there is some common sense there.

as for energy weapons they take up much less space and mass because they have no real moving parts and no recoil (PPCs might have some recoil) so take up less space and have less mass.





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