47 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

Am i the only one that has noticed the tiers have made this game into two completely different games?

What i mean is the tier 1 and 2 and somewhat 3 are playing a vastly different game to the tier 5 and 4 and again the some low end of 3..

What i'm seeing in tiers 4 and 5 are nothing like the tier 1 and 2 see... The weapons, mechs and tactics are completely different and the maps are used completely different.. There is very little Nascar in tiers 4 and 5 compared to it in 1 and 2. Tier 3 must be a bit of a mess at this time with them being in the middle.

The cauldron doesn't seem to understand that not everyone ever gets to tier 1 and 2 anymore so what they propose for their matchs be it mechs and weapons and even maps just doesn't work in the lower teirs because the games are played completely different.

This is also why TTK is a massive problem these days, what works for tiers 1 and 2 doesn't for tier 4 and 5.

Edited by MechaGnome, 14 June 2021 - 08:26 PM.

[John Bronco]

Anything that works in tiers 1 and 2 will certainly work in tiers 4 and 5.

But regardless you can't balance a game around new players driving mechs and builds they don't understand around maps they aren't familiar with.

This thread is more rubbish concern trolling from the usual suspects.

[Saved By The Bell]

Low Tier guys and games were fun.
High Tier games almost the same pattern and same mechs.

[justcallme A S H]

MechaGnome, on 14 June 2021 - 08:22 PM, said:

The cauldron doesn't seem to understand that not everyone ever gets to tier 1 and 2 anymore so what they propose for their matchs be it mechs and weapons and even maps just doesn't work in the lower teirs because the games are played completely different.

The Cauldron understands very well that you do not balance from the bottom up. I cannot think of a single video game in existence that does.

A number of Cauldron members also have Alt accounts in T4/5. We watch Tier 4/5 streamers regularly and interact with players in lower tiers all the time. Hell I've had 3-4 brand new players come past my stream/discord in the past week alone and they are learning a lot and improving fast which is great to see.

Suffice to say the Cauldron has a very solid undertstanding of what goes on down in the lower tiers. Coupled with much deeper game knowledge that your average casual user, it makes us even more informed.


With your misconceptions clarified - what are you actullly trying to say here, exactly?

[Leone]

Huh. Weird. At tier 4 I am seeing something completely different than you. Maybe it's a playtime dichotomy more'n a tier one?

Anyways, I do not see how lack of nascaring would greatly change weapon viability. Could you explain that line of thinking in greater detail for me?

~Leone.

[Nikki Kerensky]

Balancing based on newbies is a bad idea, as has already been pointed out.

But I've been working my way up from Tier 5 lately and I've been thinking that it seems that you get quite a variety of tier selections out of the matchmaker. It would be interesting to see Tiers listed in games to confirm it. But yeah, if you end up in a mostly Tier 5 game you can definitely see it in what's happening (or what's not happening), but I definitely seem to have been ending in also quite decent/skilled games already when I was at Tier 4.

[Y E O N N E]

They want a piece of in-game equipment that will help them bridge the skill gap, not realizing that such a piece of equipment can also be used against them. It won't be the equalizer they think it is, it will just emphasize different skills that they will mostly also struggle to adapt to but the good players won't.

It is important to have something in the game that is easy to use and easy to do well with, but that thing can't be so good that it completely bridges the gap between a good and a bad player or nothing else in the game will matter.

[martian]

SCRAPMETAL99, on 14 June 2021 - 10:35 PM, said:

[redacted]

Could you turn off your "Caps Lock", please? It would make your posts easier to read.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 15 June 2021 - 04:51 AM.
quote cleanup

[PocketYoda]

I said exactly what i meant the tiers aren't the same at all game play wise, and the echo chamber here wont change that.

[Vlad Ward]

MechaGnome, on 16 June 2021 - 07:36 AM, said:

I said exactly what i meant the tiers aren't the same at all game play wise, and the echo chamber here wont change that.

No one's disputing that. It just doesn't matter unless a particular balance element has a steep performance gradient between tiers.

One good example of that is Streaks. Streaks have a high skill floor and a low skill ceiling. This can cause them to overperform in low tiers and underperform in high tiers. It's simply not possible to balance these elements across all tiers without changing their fundamental design - which ideally should've come up when designing them in the first place.

Outside of the 2-3 cases like this, the differences in gameplay preferences between T1 and T5 come out in the wash as far as balance is concerned.

[Davegt27]

nothing that caldron has done has made one bit of deference to my game (looking at my stats)

for example I hardly see the top players after I left T1 and now I am in T4 my stats are the same

its not caldrons fault they are trying
but unless they dig into the code I don't think what they are trying to do will work

if they want to throw up some stats that might help more people to get on board

[pattonesque]

Davegt27, on 16 June 2021 - 10:14 AM, said:

nothing that caldron has done has made one bit of deference to my game (looking at my stats)

for example I hardly see the top players after I left T1 and now I am in T4 my stats are the same

its not caldrons fault they are trying
but unless they dig into the code I don't think what they are trying to do will work

if they want to throw up some stats that might help more people to get on board

I don't believe the intent was to change your stats, it was to make more weapon types and mechs viable and fun

right now I'm running a small pulse FS9-A to the level of my best lights. four months ago this build would have been far weaker

[Davegt27]

pattonesque, on 16 June 2021 - 11:18 AM, said:

I don't believe the intent was to change your stats, it was to make more weapon types and mechs viable and fun

right now I'm running a small pulse FS9-A to the level of my best lights. four months ago this build would have been far weaker

improvements need to show up somewhere

[Leone]

MechaGnome, on 16 June 2021 - 07:36 AM, said:

I said exactly what i meant the tiers aren't the same at all game play wise, and the echo chamber here wont change that.

Leone, on 14 June 2021 - 10:57 PM, said:

Huh. Weird. At tier 4 I am seeing something completely different than you. Maybe it's a playtime dichotomy more'n a tier one?

Anyways, I do not see how lack of nascaring would greatly change weapon viability. Could you explain that line of thinking in greater detail for me?

~Leone.

[justcallme A S H]

Davegt27, on 16 June 2021 - 01:08 PM, said:

improvements need to show up somewhere

They do show up - in the player numbers. Those same player numbers which have been increasing steadily.

patton is absolutely spot on in that weapon rebalance won't necessarily alter a players stats. They certainly haven't altered mine. It simply means there is more fun being had. Looking around everywhere from forums, discords and reddit there and a plethora of comments about the game being fun and fresh again and that is measurable by increase in player numbers.

[FinnMcKool]

the Tears don't mean anything, I was at tear 1 for the longest time, then,,, I didn't care so much , started having fun, experimenting with mech Builds and trying to win games, the system for getting higher tear lvl is busted, has nothing to do with skill lvl, even in my opinion rewards people for losing games, and punishes those who win

I can play every game and have my rating go up every game whether my team wins or not, I know how to do that, and so do many others

any way its just a rant that's been bothering me, like the K/D ratio, it really can ruin the game when thats all people care about.

Edited by FinnMcKool, 16 June 2021 - 02:45 PM.

[martian]

FinnMcKool, on 16 June 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

the Tears don't mean anything, I was at tear 1 for the longest time, then,,, I didn't care so much , started having fun, experimenting with mech Builds and trying to win games,

The old pre-2020 PSR system was busted. It was really skewed towards the upwards movement. A good portion of MWO players ended in Tier 1 eventually, often regardless their skill - just because they played a lot of games.

FinnMcKool, on 16 June 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

the system for getting higher tear lvl is busted, has nothing to do with skill lvl, ...

The new (post-2020) PSR system is not perfect, but the skill level has much greater weight in the new system than it had in the old (pre-2020) PSR system.

FinnMcKool, on 16 June 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

even in my opinion rewards people for losing games, and punishes those who win

You are not right. The players of the victorious team are given a PSR bonus.

FinnMcKool, on 16 June 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

I can play every game and have my rating go up every game whether my team wins or not, I know how to do that, and so do many others

Sure.

FinnMcKool, on 16 June 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

any way its just a rant that's been bothering me, like the K/D ratio, it really can ruin the game when thats all people care about.

So just do not care about it. Disable Tier display in the Mechlab and on the forums and stop checking your stats page.

[feeWAIVER]

justcallme A S H, on 16 June 2021 - 02:05 PM, said:

They do show up - in the player numbers. Those same player numbers which have been increasing steadily.

patton is absolutely spot on in that weapon rebalance won't necessarily alter a players stats. They certainly haven't altered mine. It simply means there is more fun being had. Looking around everywhere from forums, discords and reddit there and a plethora of comments about the game being fun and fresh again and that is measurable by increase in player numbers.

Steam Charts are showing 7% of players dropping in the past 30 days.
Maybe spend more time hyping things to come, and less time arguing about how amazing the cauldron members are.

[Bennesto]

Steam only shows players that play through steam, not those w/ standalone. Jarls is more accurate, if still not the "whole picture" but closer to the realdeal than steam metrics:

Player numbers Season 58 (May '21): 26,377.
Season 53 (Dec '20): 20.389.

Just go to the website and check "Global stats" - you are in for a surprise.

Edited by Bennesto, 16 June 2021 - 10:19 PM.

[Elizander]

Just rename the tiers to: Hardcore, Competitive, Veteran, Casual and Beginner