17 replies to this topic

[Dauntless Blint]

For fun.
What if we increased all structure globally by 10x. (Goal: reduce the value of pinpoint, increase fight duration)

Removed Ghost Heat globally OR increased Heat Pool Globally.(Goal: Account for increased firing durations, unpunished boating)

Increased critical values on Targeting Computers. (Goal: Make them a generally more viable option on any build)

Increased ammo value per Ton. (Goal: Rebalance to compensate for 10x the target health pool)

Added 3 new Armor types: (can only install one)
(Goal: Increase players voluntarily tanking for the team, Promote team/community cohesion)

-Composite Armor -15% damage from ballistic weapons
-Ceramic Armor -15% damage from energy weapons
-Chemical Reactive Armor -15% damage from missile weapons

These META BREAKER armor types would compete for critical slots in the same way as Endo Structure, Stealth etc.

(Globally it would become a great tool for perking the damage resistance of an under performing chassis/geometry.)

(Weapons would crit dead before component destruction offering some semblance of machine durability or endurance)


I know this is pie in the sky. I just like to game theory for fun.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 18 June 2021 - 04:35 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

The longer it takes to deplete the enemy's HP pool, the more you emphasize cool-running, high-DPS weapons.

Basically, what you want is going to render lasers extremely impotent against ballistics and missiles and the game will devolve even more into pusha pusha pushal.

[1453 R]

As Yeonne said: the longer it takes for someone to go from Fresh to Dedskies, the more the game favors high-efficiency builds that can fight for long periods of time without breaking off. The only thing that such bloated health values would do is allow people to get away with bad plays more often - twelve 'Mechs would still beat one 'Mech like a pinata, but the grossly overinflated health values means the one 'Mech may actually be able to back off and escape their just desserts for the misplay. Once. Maybe twice.

Also worth noting that health values have nothing to do with the value of pinpoint damage. It doesn't matter how much health components have - the ability to direct all your damage to one component instead of all the components heavily magnifies that damage. A 30-point pinpoint shot that hits where you want it to will be considered superior to 50 damage of vomit that goes wherever it feels like, reagdrless of whether the target has 50-health components or 500-health components. Frankly, the latter probably more emphasizes pinpoint damage and precise aim, since spreading out damage becomes so much more punitive. Your changes make individual component destructions much more important, which means being able to surgically hit **** to ensure you take out weakened areas becomes that much more critical.

There's no version of fiddling-with-numbers that makes pinpoint instant damage weapons inferior to other stuff. The only way of making pinpoint instant damage equivalent to other stuff is getting rid of the "pinpoint" part or the "instant" part, neither of which MWO is prepared to do.

[Spheroid]

Sounds terrible. Groups of weaponless Atlases humping each other for the last five minutes of a match. Why is this needed?

[Mahpsy]

Though I do want TTK to go up, buffing armor isn't the way to go. Too many systems would need to be changed.

Personally IMO there just needs to be less pinpoint convergence with torso mounted lasers and ballistics. I for one believe that if you have a mech in your face at 100m-300m ish your damage spread should be pretty spread say if you where an Annihilator. Right torso goes to enemy left etc.

That being said lets say your target is 500+m out, torso mounted can aim better. This isn't a flushed out idea, just an example of something I would like to see done.

[MyriadDigits]

Mahpsy, on 18 June 2021 - 12:31 PM, said:

Though I do want TTK to go up, buffing armor isn't the way to go. Too many systems would need to be changed.

Personally IMO there just needs to be less pinpoint convergence with torso mounted lasers and ballistics. I for one believe that if you have a mech in your face at 100m-300m ish your damage spread should be pretty spread say if you where an Annihilator. Right torso goes to enemy left etc.

That being said lets say your target is 500+m out, torso mounted can aim better. This isn't a flushed out idea, just an example of something I would like to see done.

Problem with this is that this would massively harm mechs that already suffer from convergence issues (Nightstar for instance) whereas mechs with relatively clustered hardpoints would greatly benefit. Mechs, frankly, like the Annihilator or Sleipnir, which are already incredibly strong as ballistic boats would hardly feel the change. The ANH is even notable for its god-tier torso energy hardpoints for the likes of running 5ERLL.

[Mahpsy]

MyriadDigits, on 18 June 2021 - 12:39 PM, said:

Problem with this is that this would massively harm mechs that already suffer from convergence issues (Nightstar for instance) whereas mechs with relatively clustered hardpoints would greatly benefit. Mechs, frankly, like the Annihilator or Sleipnir, which are already incredibly strong as ballistic boats would hardly feel the change. The ANH is even notable for its god-tier torso energy hardpoints for the likes of running 5ERLL.

Ya after I posted I just remembered the King Crab that can't really do anything if you're in its face since the arm's are so far to the side. I feel like there could be a work around for this because well they are arms. Mechs with the actuators should be able to get them at least in front of their chest to lore. In game no animations would be needed just the mechanic of arm mounted (when appropriate) to shoot CT with no issue, but that's the part I'm stuck on.

[Wildstreak]

Increasing TTK in simple terms is going too much like shooters where you have only 2 hitboxes, Head where you die to 1 shot, everything else where you die to a few shots. TTK is really high in those games.

For several reasons, TTK is different here. Keep increasing it, it becomes more and more like them.

Games need to have differences that make them interesting choices between them for what to play and why.

I will admit after reading this I wonder if Ghost Heat is one reason they shrank and limited hardpoints in MW5 from MWO though it also limited build options, might be interesting debate there as I see no proof of GH in MW5.

[FupDup]

Wildstreak, on 19 June 2021 - 08:16 AM, said:

Increasing TTK in simple terms is going too much like shooters where you have only 2 hitboxes, Head where you die to 1 shot, everything else where you die to a few shots. TTK is really high in those games.

Increase TTK = takes longer to kill people

Decrease TTK = takes less time to kill people

Example: If you die from 4 shots instead of 3 shots, that increases the time it took to kill you.

[Storming Angel]

Wildstreak, on 19 June 2021 - 08:16 AM, said:

Increasing TTK in simple terms is going too much like shooters where you have only 2 hitboxes, Head where you die to 1 shot, everything else where you die to a few shots. TTK is really high in those games.

For several reasons, TTK is different here. Keep increasing it, it becomes more and more like them.

Games need to have differences that make them interesting choices between them for what to play and why.

I will admit after reading this I wonder if Ghost Heat is one reason they shrank and limited hardpoints in MW5 from MWO though it also limited build options, might be interesting debate there as I see no proof of GH in MW5.

Increasing TTK, drags games out. Lowering TTK shortens them.

[pbiggz]

I am quite certain you have not fully thought out the implications of what you're asking for.

A: increasing time to kill typically just heavily incentivizes boating heavy brawling weapons because ranged throughput can't stop people before they close in.

B: the only reason you're asking for increased time to kill is because you want to spend more time playing, and less time spectating/staring at the queue. The real solution for both of those problems is actual objectives and dropdecks in quickplay.

We spent the better part of the last decade turning every weapon that ever felt powerful into a pool noodle. It got us nowhere.

[PocketYoda]

I'm in total agreement we need to raise the TTK but i feel armor quirks across the board would be better even weaker clan mechs, not so much these suggestions.

I would like shared locks removed though.

pbiggz, on 19 June 2021 - 10:46 AM, said:

I am quite certain you have not fully thought out the implications of what you're asking for.

A: increasing time to kill typically just heavily incentivizes boating heavy brawling weapons because ranged throughput can't stop people before they close in.

B: the only reason you're asking for increased time to kill is because you want to spend more time playing, and less time spectating/staring at the queue. The real solution for both of those problems is actual objectives and dropdecks in quickplay.

We spent the better part of the last decade turning every weapon that ever felt powerful into a pool noodle. It got us nowhere.

Not true if lights and mediums <-- more those were tougher more players would utilize them to vapor eagle standards at least, maybe slightly stronger.

Storming Angel, on 19 June 2021 - 10:14 AM, said:

Increasing TTK, drags games out. Lowering TTK shortens them.

Long games are more fun.

Edited by MechaGnome, 19 June 2021 - 05:32 PM.

[Horseman]

We had this discussion already: https://mwomercs.com...__fromsearch__1

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the time to die is to short ...learn more...play better, see you fails by Movement and positioning , work to your Aim, and learn Tactical Awarness play and thinking as Team to kill the other Team and not bring self the most kills or goe to CoD...here Players thats drives Mechs since 30 Years in Single and Multiplayergames, have trained in many Clans/Factions/Groups over Years (Drill Standards in formation/firing/tactical and Strategical warfare/ and acting as Group without or minimal Commands)have a Basic tactical Awarness like a old Veteran and now come Bloody Recruits and whines and crys thats sucking...when you not can survives in a Medium Mech over 5 Minutes and not make 200 Dmg in tthe half of Matches, you real bad and have nothing tactical awarness or you bad physical/psychical Handycaped ...thats the simple true...live with it its nor like othe FPS games or TT , here you only a little part in a Teamplay game ,like football, do your Role for a Teamwin or make you own and lost

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 20 June 2021 - 01:42 AM.

[Dauntless Blint]

Y E O N N E, on 18 June 2021 - 05:31 AM, said:

The longer it takes to deplete the enemy's HP pool, the more you emphasize cool-running, high-DPS weapons.

Basically, what you want is going to render lasers extremely impotent against ballistics and missiles and the game will devolve even more into pusha pusha pushal.

Not if you remove their Critical value, if high alpha pinpoint weapons are designed for armor punching (not critting) and then brawling weapons given increased critical values for structure destruction you can remove some incentive to just High alpha PP on the balance that they don't compete for the same health pools and structure would be 90% of the total health pool.

In the same way as say for instance an APFSD tank round can punch right through light armor and cause little damage as it fly's in one side of the target and straight out the other compared to a lighter explosive round that's entire energy gets dissipated inside the target.
You could cause longer ranged weapons to cause better damage to armor(+internal components) and brawling/shorter range weapons better for killing structure through improved critical values.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 20 June 2021 - 06:35 PM.

[Dauntless Blint]

1453 R, on 18 June 2021 - 07:12 AM, said:

As Yeonne said: the longer it takes for someone to go from Fresh to Dedskies, the more the game favors high-efficiency builds that can fight for long periods of time without breaking off. The only thing that such bloated health values would do is allow people to get away with bad plays more often - twelve 'Mechs would still beat one 'Mech like a pinata, but the grossly overinflated health values means the one 'Mech may actually be able to back off and escape their just desserts for the misplay. Once. Maybe twice.

Also worth noting that health values have nothing to do with the value of pinpoint damage. It doesn't matter how much health components have - the ability to direct all your damage to one component instead of all the components heavily magnifies that damage. A 30-point pinpoint shot that hits where you want it to will be considered superior to 50 damage of vomit that goes wherever it feels like, reagdrless of whether the target has 50-health components or 500-health components. Frankly, the latter probably more emphasizes pinpoint damage and precise aim, since spreading out damage becomes so much more punitive. Your changes make individual component destructions much more important, which means being able to surgically hit **** to ensure you take out weakened areas becomes that much more critical.

There's no version of fiddling-with-numbers that makes pinpoint instant damage weapons inferior to other stuff. The only way of making pinpoint instant damage equivalent to other stuff is getting rid of the "pinpoint" part or the "instant" part, neither of which MWO is prepared to do.

Time to kill wouldn't change much in my conception.
If you balanced the cold PPFLD to not crit or less crit and increased all the brawling weapons to crit better to the point that the +10x current structure value felt close to the same time to kill given the new critical values on other weapons are high enough.

The only difference is we can unlock boating crazy weapon combo's and then can remove ghost heat because we've reduced their worth against structure. Like for instance a medium laser now crits for "15" damage with an 80% chance combined with targeting computers values, so you could negate them against armor better but outperform say even gauss at close range against structure in power per ton.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 20 June 2021 - 06:45 PM.

[Dauntless Blint]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 20 June 2021 - 01:14 AM, said:

the time to die is to short ...learn more...play better, see you fails by Movement and positioning , work to your Aim, and learn Tactical Awarness play and thinking as Team to kill the other Team and not bring self the most kills or goe to CoD...here Players thats drives Mechs since 30 Years in Single and Multiplayergames, have trained in many Clans/Factions/Groups over Years (Drill Standards in formation/firing/tactical and Strategical warfare/ and acting as Group without or minimal Commands)have a Basic tactical Awarness like a old Veteran and now come Bloody Recruits and whines and crys thats sucking...when you not can survives in a Medium Mech over 5 Minutes and not make 200 Dmg in tthe half of Matches, you real bad and have nothing tactical awarness or you bad physical/psychical Handycaped ...thats the simple true...live with it its nor like othe FPS games or TT , here you only a little part in a Teamplay game ,like football, do your Role for a Teamwin or make you own and lost

You totally missed the point. It just nerfs PPFLD so we can boat again and remove ghost heat. TTK will be about the same but with nerfed PPFLD TTK.

I personally liked the game better when it was pre skill tree, and had faster TTK because as an individual in the team you had more agency, not only on the field but in build variation as well. All your survivability came from positioning and the higher speeds everything worked at.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 20 June 2021 - 07:06 PM.

[Dauntless Blint]

Horseman, on 19 June 2021 - 11:29 PM, said:

We had this discussion already: https://mwomercs.com...__fromsearch__1

No they missed the point too. TTK increase would only apply to PPFLD, all the other weapons would outperform it against structure through crit buffs, aiming to be around current TTK for a starting point. The increased structure isn't to increase TTK across the full spectrum of weapon choices, just the ones that are problematic to the point that even when boating them and removing ghost heat they aren't even oppressive but a fun choice.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 20 June 2021 - 07:22 PM.