108 replies to this topic

[Der Geisterbaer]

Storming Angel said:

Ill probs have to get the piranha myself and see how it goes, i've been playing lights and can see how difficult they are,

I strongly recommend that you indeed try the mechs in question because ...

Storming Angel said:

although i just tend too see some peeps say its OP, it does have a large damage output from the 8+ micro lasers it can carry

... now you're mixing up two (three) distinct variants of the PIR. The PIR-1 is the one that can reasonably well boat 10 to 12 machine guns and usually adds 3 heavy small lasers or 3 micro pulse lasers. That's the variant that could be subject to a negative machine gun quirks under the stipulation that one wanted to buff machine guns in general.
As far as 8+ micro lasers are concerned: Realistically we're only talking the non ghostheat maxed 12 micro pulse lasers on either the PIR-2 or the PIR-3 because with "only" 8 to 10 we're suddenly having a Kit Fox in the mix, the Arctic Cheetah coming pretty close and various mediums that can do that as well - and IIRC the latter were also part of the decision to revert the original buff to 3.0 damage back to 2.8 on micro pulse laser instead of "just" the PIR-2/-3 being the "outlier".

Storming Angel said:

Battlemech Taser? lol. Heavy flamers? Coil would be interesting as peeps would need to move around to charge the shot, but then im guessing the only support weapons that we could get would be ER flamers, Heavy flamers and similar since they basically use the same mechanics as the other two would require programmers to code new mechanics in which is a shame.

Mech Mortars would be interesting, but again would mostly likely require programmers to do. Fluid gun could be interesting too do, maybe corrosive effect or creating a low signal effect as well disrupting targeting.

Dunno if Binary laser Cannons or Bombast Lasers would ever be a thing either. Might as well go with flamers really and the fluid gun could be cool to mess around with.

Well, coding requirements aside with the exception of the er-flamer I personally would not consider any of the weapons you mentioned still being true "support weapons". ~shrug~

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 03 July 2021 - 04:36 AM.

[Khobai]

the fluid gun is definitely a support weapon

its basically a reverse flamer that cools teammates down instead of heating enemies up

just adding the fluid gun alone could add a whole new role to the game

[XDarth BobX]

In LL when someone did a coolant purge, it would look like they wet them self's

ps

i dont think neg. quirks is a way to go

just sounds so Negative

Edited by XDarth BobX, 03 July 2021 - 10:13 AM.

[Dogstar]

I don't think there's a sensible or reasonable way to nerf the various Piranha versions because they're already such an extremely min-maxed chassis that any serious change would ruin them. The only real option is to leave them with no quirks at all.

For IS mechs with their limited hardpoints and slightly inferior MGs either an MG buff or a whole bunch of MG quirks for MG toting lights and mediums would be good to bring them up to a decent balance point.

[Storming Angel]

Dogstar, on 04 July 2021 - 12:07 AM, said:

I don't think there's a sensible or reasonable way to nerf the various Piranha versions because they're already such an extremely min-maxed chassis that any serious change would ruin them. The only real option is to leave them with no quirks at all.

For IS mechs with their limited hardpoints and slightly inferior MGs either an MG buff or a whole bunch of MG quirks for MG toting lights and mediums would be good to bring them up to a decent balance point.

Yeah that sounds like the best solution too be fair, i defo wouldn't mind seeing the cougar get some quirks. Quite a big, slow chunky light that could do with a lil love.

[LordNothing]

XDarth BobX, on 03 July 2021 - 10:09 AM, said:

In LL when someone did a coolant purge, it would look like they wet them self's

ps

i dont think neg. quirks is a way to go

just sounds so Negative

there used to be a whole bunch of negative quirks, but they were all baked into base stats and then positive quirks were given to the weak variants to compensate. mathematically it breaks even.

[PocketYoda]

Probably too early an era but those TSEMP cannons would be hilarious in MWO

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/TSEMP

[Ignatius Audene]

If u ever got hit by a narc on caustic domination in a fp match u will never call it underpowered again.

[Dogstar]

Ignatius Audene, on 06 July 2021 - 01:57 AM, said:

If u ever got hit by a narc on caustic domination in a fp match u will never call it underpowered again.

That's the trouble with the 'support' weapons though, they're feast or famine. Either you get the trick to work or you wasted your time and effort with them. That applies from the other way around as you've pointed out, either you counter the support weapon or you get messed about by it - which under certain circumstances is a royal pain

[Storming Angel]

Dogstar, on 06 July 2021 - 11:35 AM, said:

That's the trouble with the 'support' weapons though, they're feast or famine. Either you get the trick to work or you wasted your time and effort with them. That applies from the other way around as you've pointed out, either you counter the support weapon or you get messed about by it - which under certain circumstances is a royal pain

Ye support weapons should compliment and add to main weapons and/or provide new ways of playing if possible like khobais suggestion with the fluid gun and using to cool down teammates, or anything else.

[Dogstar]

Storming Angel, on 07 July 2021 - 05:02 AM, said:

Ye support weapons should compliment and add to main weapons and/or provide new ways of playing if possible like khobais suggestion with the fluid gun and using to cool down teammates, or anything else.

You're missing my point - 'support' weapons shouldn't be just for support, they should be a viable choice in and of themselves.

[Storming Angel]

Dogstar, on 07 July 2021 - 10:14 PM, said:

You're missing my point - 'support' weapons shouldn't be just for support, they should be a viable choice in and of themselves.

Uh no, hence why they are called support weapons, they are meant to compliment your main load out not be the main loadout otherwise they are not support weapons end of.

[Captain Caveman DE]

good thing battletech has only weapons, not support weapons.


oh.. besides actual support, in the form of long toms and thumpers etc.


but hey.. whatever. call stuff whatever you like and adress a meaning and/or role to that..
I mean it's the internet.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 08 July 2021 - 02:55 AM.

[SockSlayer]

Dogstar, on 30 June 2021 - 12:58 AM, said:

There's another thread about LMGs specifcally but I thought it worth rasing this separatly.

Could the cauldron look at all the 'support' weapons when they get a chance please? By which I mean the following weapons and what I think are their weaknesses:

MGs - work best when boated to the extreme
Flamers - don't do any damage, need three or more to work properly
Tag - not enough range, almost always better to use an ER laser instead
NARC - really heavy, limited ammo, slow firing
STREAK - heavy, weak, and difficult unless you have at least six of them

I feel that it should be a viable choice to take these instead of other weapons of the same weight. Currently they are often used in trick builds or as a follow up to primary weapons.

There's also the issue that some Clan mechs can boat a whole bunch of MGs or Flamers, which makes up for their weakness, whereas IS mechs don't have that ability.

I feel that Flamers should do a lot more damage at the expense of maybe a small reduction in heat generation, that IS MGs should do a bit more damage thanks to their weight and lack of boatability, that Clan MGs should also do a little more damage, that Tags should have better range and lighter weight, and that NARCs and STREAKs should have all their factors buffed a bit because they're so heavy. Note the emphasis in small buffs, major buffs would definitely throw out balance.

I'm not sure what the knock-on effects of all that would be though, what do others think?

I feel this especially on the flamers, although narc can be useful in serving as a focus fire if it hits. But back on flamers...after alot of tests, etc...After discussions, even those who think flamers are ok still wish for a bit more damage or range. I find that to be the case very often, since this is a game of checks and balances, the flamers though they can overheat other mechs, they also have nearly no range, no damage, and can overheat your own mech guaranteed for most mechs in 1 minute from just 1 flamer.

Seeing this post convinces me some still think something needs to be done, me being one of those people. I honestly wish they would do the mw4:mercs flamer, 150m range, 1 damage, and just add a 90% heat cap, and since it fires like a laser, they have to wait abit before firing again, it didn't have exponential overheat, but each flamer does 4 heat to self, this game only 1...I think if they take what the mw4 flamer was and use it here, the only difference needed would be the 90% cap and it should be golden. Also in mw4, framers took 2 slots, not one, so clan overboating would be nixxed...would love to see them get the flamer right.

Edited by SockSlayer, 19 July 2021 - 07:42 AM.

[Kynesis]

TAG really should be a toggle though, holding a button constantly isn't doing any favours for people with (or hope to avoid) RSI.

[Leone]

SockSlayer, on 18 July 2021 - 06:46 PM, said:

...would love to see them get the flamer right.

I love flamers. Use 'em all the time. Just saying, if you got your way the salt would flow. They don't need to do damage, just pack backup weaponry.

~Leone.

[Dogstar]

Leone, on 19 July 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

just pack backup weaponry.

But that's part of the problem, there shouldn't be weapons that require other weapons in order to be used.

Putting flamers on any build that isn't a trick build is a loss at the moment, that's not a statement that applies to any other form of Battletech

[Leone]

Nonsense. You are wrong.

In what crazy world do you think we should build a tag that'll be viable to boat? Or narc's that'll blow up mechs on their own? The entire idea of support is that they make other things better. Synergy and all that. I can understand if you don't want to use support weaponry, but saying we shouldn't have support weaponry because you don't like them is just silly.

What next, lrms should be removed because you don't like having to use cover to not die when someone else brings them?

Flamers give you an advantage on the heat curve in a brawl. They have a use. If you bring other weaponry, you wont need to bring another mech to take advantage of that. Alternatively, just bring another mech to take advantage of it.

~Leone.

[SockSlayer]

This is why I loved the mw4 Flamer, it has the range of 150m, at least one damage, and it had to reload in a sense like lasers. If that was here, no more just holding a button down to overheat whoever you want, as 90% cap would still be in effect, and you have a chance to miss the shot, whereas that isn't a threat now. Heat penalty could stay to prevent overboating, but since it generated 4 heat to own mech instead of just the 1 heat it does now, it wouldn't require exponential overheat. Also, it took 2 slots up and not just the current 1, apply that here, and no more head hard points, also clans could do 12 plus flamers before in this game, but in mw4, 8 was the limit due to it taking another slot...and this was only doable on supernova. The only problem in mw4 if it was a pvp game, is that there was no heat cap of 90%, and since there would be here, it shouldn't be a problem. Heat damage could be 4.5 like it is now, and reload time could be like 4 seconds as it was in mw4, longer if to prevent overuse, 4 seconds would be the reload time of er large laser. This approach would cause the flamer to only put a mech at 90% the moment it hits, but since it would be 4 seconds before firing again, that would cause the heat to fall off since its not constant. So even in previous flamers, it wasn't meant to be burning for so long, but actually reloaded.

Honestly, if I had these flamers, at least I could actually deal a fair damage amount while still causing heat..although it was 4 seconds to reload in mw4 mercenaries, I would be ok with even a 7 second reload time, 7 seconds is plenty of time to get rid of a flamer mech, and if its heat was 4 to own mech off the bat, it would force good shots and decisions. To me, this would bring the flamer into a true support weapon status, as right now, it is the support of support weapons like mg, it is the only weapon class that does damage that cannot stand alone when boated unlike literally all the other weapons, even micro laser can be alone, and it's less tonnage. I just did a test with a weapon that would cause same heat to mech as proposed, and it gets your own mech up to 56% heat, but since that weapon was er medium laser, heat penalty is at 6 weapons, and with the flamer at 4, this would probably cause instead overheat to self. So to put someone at 90% in this case would mean shutting yourself down, so chain fire would be a possibility now.

P.S. I would accept even 8 second reload time, which is longer than even narc, as long as I get that satisfaction of some damage and heat with ample range, its fine with me.

Edited by SockSlayer, 20 July 2021 - 01:46 AM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

as someone who plays a lot of LRM builds i have to admit that LRM are in a relatively good place right now. not OP and not nerfed into the ground. that being said i do think that a VERY slight reduction in indirect fire ECM lock time would be nice. the biggest change i think lock on Missiles need is returning the lock circle back to being equal to the target box, as it stands it is rather hard to keep a good lock on a moving target as the lock on area is so small that even the slightest mistake breaks lock even when the target is still targeted this is even worse for indirect targets with ECM protected targets as it takes so long to get the lock in the first place.

just to stop the cry babies before they start i do get my own locks when i can but sometimes you can't. hell most of the time when i am not its because the target is far away and i'm raining on them to support a friendly caught out of position, at longer ranges, or just in a bad position myself in relation to the enemy.