161 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

You don't put 6 cLPL on a RFL IIC...

[C337Skymaster]

justcallme A S H, on 27 July 2021 - 07:36 PM, said:

You don't put 6 cLPL on a RFL IIC...

You saw the link...

And how is a new player supposed to know that? The 'mech has an extreme quirk for the weapon and two extra energy hardpoints, with untapped tonnage from converting to an XL engine and ditching the jump jets. What if a new player likes the weapon and wants to play it that way?

[C337Skymaster]

John Bronco, on 27 July 2021 - 07:36 PM, said:

No they weren't, but please continue making statements proving your weak grasp of game balance.

Someone else pointed out that weapons should be grouped by range-bracket, not by type. Thus, cLPL's were in the same range bracket as ERML's, MRMs, AC/10's, etc. In that grouping, they did perform very well. ERPPCs fill a much longer range bracket, and run much hotter than LPL's at close range (as intended). LPL's also give the best-of-both-worlds function of having a very short burn time for greater pinpoint, while also having a burn time to correct for an initially missed shot. They also don't require any ballistic lead, so aiming them is considerably easier in the first place.

[C337Skymaster]

Decided to try that DWF with skills, since I own one: That same linked build, with every single heat-related skill available (heat gen, heat containment, cool run), shuts down for about a second or two with no internal damage. Button-mashing a weapon group of 3 runs slightly heat-negative (about 0.5% heat lost each salvo). Each group of 3 LPL's generates about 30% heat, which the 'mech then dissipates in about 3 seconds. It takes about 10 seconds to cool down from 100%.

Just for giggles, I then replaced all 6 cLPL's with 6 cERPPCs. Restart took about 25 seconds, and the Atlas' armor was not breached after 2 salvos, whereas after 2 salvos of LPL's, it only takes two more individual LPL's to finish the kill.

[justcallme A S H]

C337Skymaster, on 27 July 2021 - 07:43 PM, said:

You saw the link...

And how is a new player supposed to know that? The 'mech has an extreme quirk for the weapon and two extra energy hardpoints, with untapped tonnage from converting to an XL engine and ditching the jump jets. What if a new player likes the weapon and wants to play it that way?

It goes into the basket of 1,000s of other builds I've seen?

Just because you can does not mean it is good/viable.


What Gas said was absolutely correct.

[StrikerX22]

Please keep in mind that not every build possible should be of equal potential (even situationally). There are going to be obvious choices that will apply to more situations, and vice versa. I could put a Standard 385 engine and 3 HSL in my VGL, with 0 armor, filling up tonnage completely even with Ferro/Endo. But it's dumb and bad. That's an extreme, but there is a full gradient of shades of bad to situationally good or typically good.

One might argue that the term "trash build" encourages the wrong kind of thinking, sure, but it's not like it shouldn't exist. Some builds really are just trash, plain and simple. I do think there are possibilities in builds that appear trash at first, but it's not like real ones don't exist. Game's complicated.

In the end, builds that are easy to understand as being rather optimal (even if possibly not fully) should indeed be the standard from which to balance things, since they reduce the variables. That said, yes, "confrontational" TTK is probably lower (outside of mobility changes, but that will often just mean that if you stand still, now you die faster), because suboptimal builds were indeed being used and now are more optimal (and also higher focus on PPFLD taking out components faster). I wouldn't mind seeing a health buff (I have a few ideas), to compensate in a simple and obvious way. [One approach could be to raise structure (bringing crits more into the forefront, unless you hate the random element too much) and raising the tonnage cost of armor, so you can choose to invest in having more health than you have now.]

[_aph_]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 27 July 2021 - 03:56 AM, said:

Did the math, and you got exactly 35% Bonus Cbills from the 'Mech-Bonus. That would be 30% from the (S)-Variant plus 5% from the googles.

Spoiler

280.142 - 75.714 - 53.000 = 151.428
53.000 / 151.428 = 0,350001 = 35%

Ah ok, thanks, I didn't think to do the math myself since I figured it would say it somewhere like other items. As long as it works though =P And at least we have it figured out here in case anyone else wonders the same thing

Edited by _aph_, 27 July 2021 - 10:19 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Honestly, given the examples used to define "Trash Tier", I rescind my previous suggestion that all of the 'mechs I was using qualify for that categorization. A couple of them do, but they did before the patch and I'm not really worried about them, anyway. A few of them did not, however, as compared to the other examples presented here.

Ultimately, the major failing being exhibited is that, due to the massively increased damage output, the Inner Sphere Orion can no longer take a hit, even with its massive armor quirks.

[Horseman]

VixNix, on 27 July 2021 - 04:08 PM, said:

"trash builds" is a bs term, which indicates a major imbalance in the game while taking the fun out of experimentation

It's not an imbalance in the game, it's a failure of players to use the mechanics effectively.
IRL you can install a solid fuel rocket booster (or a few) in a car, doesn't mean that's a good idea, or even a practical one:

[DAEDALOS513]

John Bronco, on 27 July 2021 - 07:36 PM, said:

No they weren't, but please continue making statements proving your weak grasp of game balance.

You didn't use them properly i guess.. just like cauldronites, you need every weapon to become a crutch.. where little effort or skill is required to do well.. just throw 4 or 5 clpl on anything and you will do very well.. even just three is strong now.. so fun, so satisfying.. not

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 28 July 2021 - 10:10 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

C337Skymaster, on 27 July 2021 - 07:21 PM, said:

Decided to give it a try on a 'mech with a Ghost Heat quirk. Executioner doesn't have the tonnage and Dire Wolf doesn't have the extra energy hardpoints without breaking set-of-8 and losing the quirk, but the Rifleman was able to make it work.

Without skills (I don't own it) and on a hot map (Tourmaline), I timed the shutdown at about 10 seconds. I suspect a full heat-based skill-tree would enable that 'mech to alpha and only hit high-90's for heat. A 3x3 left/right combo would avoid ghost heat altogether with mostly the same damage effect, given the short burn time of pulse lasers. Two shots to the Atlas on the map (a -D variant with all of that chassis' bonus armor quirks) had the CT armor gone and the internals a very deep orange color.

https://mech.nav-alp...dfd8560_RFL-IIC

Rifleman with a HSL +2 quirk is pretty significant and wasn't the mech in question. We are talking about mechs without the HSL quirk such as the Blood Asp, Supernova, or Mad Cat Mk II.

C337Skymaster, on 27 July 2021 - 06:59 PM, said:

So here's one that looks good on paper, but is severely hampered by the Orion's inability to brawl:

https://mech.nav-alp...#8455726d_ON1-M

It was already "meh" before the patch, and has only gone downhill since.

That's the ON1-MC. The remaining variations on the ON1-M (MA, MB, MD) contain one LRM system and generally have to rely on it to do any cumulative damage before death. The direct-fire weapons are useful once, maybe twice, before one side or the other no longer exists, and XL death occurs.

Orion's have never been tanky with XL engines, that isn't new. Put an LFE in it or run something else.

How is a player supposed to know not to use an XL engine in an Orion? Well, if you continue to get ganked by XL death early, one of sound mind would come to the conclusion that the XL engine isn't worth it.

In fact, in general, brawling heavies and XL engines don't mix.

C337Skymaster, on 27 July 2021 - 06:52 PM, said:

Oh, and as for why stock builds are the baseline? Because that's how the 'mech comes. Stock. That's literally the definition of "baseline": that's what you start with. Anybody who's new to the game who doesn't know the feel of the 'mechs yet will, and should, run the stock loadout once. Get a feel for the 'mech and how it plays, before spending money on upgrades or alterations that may not fit with how they want to use the 'mech.

OR they should look at the pre-built champion builds and see what else is on the field before investing in a new mech and upgrades. New player experience and game balance are two different things. If we want to talk ways to improve the NPE, that's a different story.

VixNix, on 27 July 2021 - 04:08 PM, said:

"trash builds" is a bs term, which indicates a major imbalance in the game while taking the fun out of experimentation

Someone else used the term and I responded with the same term, but you honestly can't expect everything you can conceivably put together in the mechlab to be equally potent.

DAEDALOS513, on 28 July 2021 - 09:47 AM, said:

You didn't use them properly i guess.. just like cauldronites, you need every weapon to become a crutch.. where little effort or skill is required to do well.. just throw 4 or 5 clpl on anything and you will do very well.. even just three is strong now.. so fun, so satisfying.. not

Sure we did. We just found that other weapons performed better when used properly.

If every weapon is a crutch, then no weapon is a crutch.

[DAEDALOS513]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 July 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

Sure we did. We just found that other weapons performed better when used properly.

If every weapon is a crutch, then no weapon is a crutch.

Exactly and the mature thing to do would have been to NERF the few outlier weapons (CERPPC and AC2).. not buff the 80-90% of the rest of them.. lol

..and the buffs keep on-a-commin.. cuz we are chasing our tails and you don't see it.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 28 July 2021 - 12:27 PM.

[StrikerX22]

DAEDALOS513, on 28 July 2021 - 12:14 PM, said:

Exactly and the mature thing to do would have been to NERF the few outlier weapons (CERPPC and AC2).. not buff the 80-90% of the rest of them.. lol

..and the buffs keep on-a-commin.. cuz we are chasing our tails and you don't see it.

Calling people being reasonable as "TROLL"s and saying the "mature" thing to do is this or that shows how hypocritical one is. Please try to respect other people and realize there are often more angles to each problem, ups and downs to each solution. Not everything just has to be your way.

So what if we do end up "chasing our tails" a little bit? I personally think snubs shouldn't have been pinpoint damage nerfed, and should've just received a heat buff (and probably accompanied by a ghost heat nerf for math reasons I won't get into here). I personally believe some players are hesitant to use weapons that "look" weak (heavy+big and less than 10 damage, for instance), so I don't think it hurts much to raise the numbers a bit, perhaps including some health. More mobility is nice. More JJ is nice. I don't see that as chasing. You shouldn't assume that Cauldron or others don't see the potential for "chasing" and what have you. It's just being presumptuous and disrespectful. I don't know all their reasoning, but they do have it (right or wrong at times). Maybe they've overall been trying to stay away from nerfing to avoid hurting the fragile ego of some players with their favorite weapons. You must know a lot of people don't like nerfing, right? Who knows. But that's okay, as long as they try to achieve balance (perfect of which will never completely happen when dealing with significantly unique systems used by technically unpredictable humans).

[Gas Guzzler]

DAEDALOS513, on 28 July 2021 - 12:14 PM, said:

Exactly and the mature thing to do would have been to NERF the few outlier weapons (CERPPC and AC2).. not buff the 80-90% of the rest of them.. lol

..and the buffs keep on-a-commin.. cuz we are chasing our tails and you don't see it.

Actually heard through the grapevine that a nerf is incoming, so put away the pitchfork for now.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 27 July 2021 - 08:06 PM, said:

Decided to try that DWF with skills, since I own one: That same linked build, with every single heat-related skill available (heat gen, heat containment, cool run), shuts down for about a second or two with no internal damage. Button-mashing a weapon group of 3 runs slightly heat-negative (about 0.5% heat lost each salvo). Each group of 3 LPL's generates about 30% heat, which the 'mech then dissipates in about 3 seconds. It takes about 10 seconds to cool down from 100%.

Just for giggles, I then replaced all 6 cLPL's with 6 cERPPCs. Restart took about 25 seconds, and the Atlas' armor was not breached after 2 salvos, whereas after 2 salvos of LPL's, it only takes two more individual LPL's to finish the kill.

LPls do more damage than an ERPPC and are cooler, this is another reason why i push for the CLan ERPPC to do 15 damage like the IS heavy PPC which was built TO EMULATE the Clan ppc. I don't understand why they went with the splash.

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 28 July 2021 - 03:54 PM, said:

LPls do more damage than an ERPPC and are cooler, this is another reason why i push for the CLan ERPPC to do 15 damage like the IS heavy PPC which was built TO EMULATE the Clan ppc. I don't understand why they went with the splash.

Well, the answer to that question is actually pretty easy: Heavy PPCs weren't in the game, yet, and at that point in time, were still about 5 years away and not dreamed of. Meanwhile, the closest IS equivalent to Clan ERPPCs was IS ERPPCs, which only did 10 dmg vs 15 for the same heat and an extra crit and an extra ton. I appreciate going with the splash vs an outright damage nerf, so that the weapons could continue to tally 15 dmg per hit without the very issue of one-shot-kill that I've been complaining about earlier in this thread.

[C337Skymaster]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 July 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

Rifleman with a HSL +2 quirk is pretty significant and wasn't the mech in question. We are talking about mechs without the HSL quirk such as the Blood Asp, Supernova, or Mad Cat Mk II.

That actually makes sense, since when I went and tested the same weapons on a Dire Wolf-Prime (no quirk) it performed significantly better, heat-wise, purely from the ability to boat that many more heat sinks. I was thinking of the Supernova while performing the Dire Wolf test, though I wouldn't have considered either of the other two.

Gas Guzzler, on 28 July 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

Orion's have never been tanky with XL engines, that isn't new. Put an LFE in it or run something else.

How is a player supposed to know not to use an XL engine in an Orion? Well, if you continue to get ganked by XL death early, one of sound mind would come to the conclusion that the XL engine isn't worth it.

In fact, in general, brawling heavies and XL engines don't mix.

And that's why I specified: the Orion seemed to go from taking four or five hits to kill to being down to two or three hits. For that matter, I had a couple matches today where the simple time lag delay resulting from Ping resulted in my Mist Lynx getting cored out, CT, by a Linebacker before I could register the attack, decide to twist, and execute the twist. I was at about 95% health (light grazing producing bright yellow armor on all forward components) when I was insta-cored. It appeared to be a combination of large and medium steady duration lasers (I'm guessing at least the larges were heavies). Previously, there would have been a hefty heat penalty to accompany such an attack, and I'm still against the ability to pinpoint every single one of those weapons on a single component with zero delay of any sort. That, in itself, completely breaks all of the build mechanics ported over from TT to make this game in the first place.

Gas Guzzler, on 28 July 2021 - 12:12 PM, said:

OR they should look at the pre-built champion builds and see what else is on the field before investing in a new mech and upgrades. New player experience and game balance are two different things. If we want to talk ways to improve the NPE, that's a different story.

Uhm, except for a few outlier cases, no. They shouldn't. Thankfully a lot of the champion builds have been updated more recently, but others haven't, and unless they're maintained up-to-date, they'll soon be the same worse-than-stock builds that the previous set of champion 'mechs were stuck with.

I forget if it was updated, but the previous Highlander champion dead-side build is absolutely TERRIBLE for newer players. Hell, it's even terrible for me, and I've been playing since 2015. Having a known dead-side build highlighted with the "(C)" designation on the name is equivalent to painting a crosshairs on the relevant component, quickly leaving new players any would-be pilot neutered and wandering aimlessly and ineffectively.

Of the new Champion 'mechs, I remember unprompted that the Mauler is hot garbage. Specifically, the current Mauler champion only works with Advanced Zoom. I had to disable two of the six AC/2's so I could see anything, because the muzzle flash of the two high-mounted guns was blinding me literally to uselessness. Once within normal-zoom range, the weapons can't typically put out enough damage to be useful before you're killed by return fire. And I mean it: those high-mounted guns can only be fired WITH advanced zoom activated. The muzzle flash is blinding in any view mode other than Advanced Zoom, eliminating your ability to aim at any range.

Meanwhile, any stock version of any Mauler has low-mounted ballistics where the muzzle flash won't blind you, LRMs so you can support from cover if you've taken too much damage, and energy weapons of some sort to fall back on when you run out of ammo or want to poke at extreme range without wasting ammo on ineffective damage.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 28 July 2021 - 06:37 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 July 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

Actually heard through the grapevine that a nerf is incoming, so put away the pitchfork for now.

Everything is being constantly watched/evaluated and will get adjusted if needed

cLPLs are marked for an adjustment for this reason same as July patch saw others adjusted.

DAEDALOS513, on 28 July 2021 - 09:47 AM, said:

You didn't use them properly i guess.. just like cauldronites, you need every weapon to become a crutch.. where little effort or skill is required to do well.. just throw 4 or 5 clpl on anything and you will do very well.. even just three is strong now.. so fun, so satisfying.. not

Ah the old 'crutch' statement. Something you insert into a post to make your point somehow valid. By now just about every weapon must be a crutch to the balance crew.

cLPL prior to rebalancing sucked. It is why the 2cLPL/6cERML build, a staple of many many Clan mechs, became completely inferior to a while pile of other weapons UACs, ERPPCs, ACs etc.

[Roodkapje]

Lockheed_, on 21 July 2021 - 08:10 AM, said:

the new water on canyon is really glitchy for me. the rippled surface texture keeps disappearing and reappearing from a distance and sometimes flickers close up

Over here it looks weird black and bugged shadow like somehow...

[DAEDALOS513]

justcallme A S H, on 28 July 2021 - 08:26 PM, said:

Everything is being constantly watched/evaluated and will get adjusted if needed

cLPLs are marked for an adjustment for this reason same as July patch saw others adjusted.



Ah the old 'crutch' statement. Something you insert into a post to make your point somehow valid. By now just about every weapon must be a crutch to the balance crew.

cLPL prior to rebalancing sucked. It is why the 2cLPL/6cERML build, a staple of many many Clan mechs, became completely inferior to a while pile of other weapons UACs, ERPPCs, ACs etc.

No clan large pulses did not suck... when paired with med lasers or med pulses.. you made it a crutch so all you now need is to boat only CLPL to rule a match.. CRUTCH CRUTCH CRUTCH

Boating ac2's.. boating uac2's.. boating cerppcs, now latest crutch: boating CLPL's for that easy damage. The way you are dumbing down this fine game is DISGUSTING.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 01 August 2021 - 06:05 PM.