135 replies to this topic

[Gagis]

What? MW5 is ridiculously easy once you find a few overpowered hero mechs and build them well.

Games are won in the mechlab.

[Thorqemada]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 26 July 2021 - 10:15 PM, said:

30 Rounds in TT is 30x10 seconds Real time =300 Seconds=5 Minutes !!!!

Seems you missed what i meant to say - it does not matter to your perception of time how many rounds you play and what the timesetting per round is - what matters is how many minutes in real time it takes to play through these rounds.

Your Inner Clock is math ignorant you know?

[MechNexus]

This is why you twist. Peek with a less damaged side, immediately twist after firing your salvo in preperation for retaliation, twist as you start taking laser/autocannon fire - MWO is unique because a high alpha attack can be crippling or barely even tickle you based on how well you twist off the damage.

[Bud Crue]

Saved By The Bell, on 27 July 2021 - 01:00 AM, said:

I think he wants to say: swarm of hellbringers with alfas, all games the same.

It was definitely better before cauldron updates.

By the way, is stealth daishi build a bug?

The game play is a bit different after the last three months of updates, but I don't think it is worse than before.

I feel like long and mid range trading is occurring by more people, for much longer time frames in the match, then before. Positioning mistakes are punished more severely than before. Brawling is harder, or at least harder to engage in successfully early on in a match, unless you are playing with a group (whose members are all on the same page).

I see more groups running light wolf packs than before, which I think is a consequence of not only lights being more formidable now but also due to the recognition that many solo players are running bigger high alpha builds to trade with, which in turn provides an increased chance of providing food for a wolf pack as more solo players seem to be positioning themselves on the outer areas of the map where the traditional NASCAR/fight occurs to take advantage of their higher alpha mid/long range builds. Circle of life and all that.

Personally, for me the biggest changes to the game of late are due to the revised maps, and the monthly free mechs. They both have forced me out of different aspects of my comfort zone, making me do things I didn't have to before and play things I don't normally play (plus I bought the Warden pack and that only made it "worse"). So yeah, I don't think things are worse, just different. But I find that if I pay attention to my surroundings, look at the mechs I am dropping with, and try really hard not to do anything too stupid, I can still break even stats-wise. Alas, that not doing stupid stuff is the hardest thing for me to do. But that is on me, not the game or the cauldron changes.

[pattonesque]

I mean, do people remember March? Talk about long-range meta. I tried brawling into it out of spite and had the worst month of my MWO career.

Laservom alpha is strong right now but so are lots of other styles. You're just seeing a lot of TBRs and DWFs which can pull it off v. effectively.

[Scout Derek]

MadBede, on 26 July 2021 - 02:55 PM, said:

Devs you vent to far with damage buffs when at same time you forgot about survi. Long range , instant damage meta is just to much. Every one carry set of lasers, PPCs on every build . Try to pick you get insta burned from 1km range. Add lights turded mobility and you get meta that murder any pleasure from playing game. ECM spam, laser spam, PPc spam, stacking bs amount of same type weapon systems to just alpha strike. Just way to much. I dont play this game for long but i think its time for me to move to another title.
Sayonara

War Thunder stuff but definitely applies to MWO in most if not a majority of what this chart has.

[1453 R]

Holy ****; War Thunder or not, that image is beautiful. I wish more people could think like that. Search for advantage from the moment your feet hit dirt, and deny your enemy any edge you can. There's some differences between games, but that's still a good lesson to take to heart.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

Scout Derek, on 27 July 2021 - 05:59 AM, said:

War Thunder stuff but definitely applies to MWO in most if not a majority of what this chart has.

This chart better make it into literally any strategic shooter game tutorial on the market. I swear 80% of players in these games have no grasp of at least one of these points.

This is literally Survival 101 for: The Battlefield series, Full Auto series (car combat games), Twisted Metal 2012 (only good and true multiplayer Twisted Metal game), Fortnite, Armored Core series, Wargaming Games, and, of course, Mechwarrior Online, etc., etc., etc.

In MWO:


Don't Be There:
Never get yourself into a bad position. This means a position where you either get overwhelmed quickly or you cannot do anything constructive for most of the match (so you generally perform worse than everyone else, even if you come out relatively unscathed).

UAVs in MWO don't really count here. However, it is vitally important to look at your map and both team placements, and then anticipate and move if you find yourself about to be in a disadvantageous position. Don't be the victim of a nascar. Don't be the duck for the firing line. Don't be the one stuck in a blind spot where you cannot have LOS on anyone. Always try to find a position where you (or your team) can land free shots on the enemy, or at least SOME shot.

If you cannot move to a position where you, or your team, can land free shots on your enemy then:


Don't Be Seen:
The only way the enemy can consistently hurt you is if they know you are there. Even if you are in the open, you won't get hurt if no one can take advantage of it.

Not getting seen is knowing about the limitations of 'sight' in the game. ECM and Stealth make you less visible in general, but as long as you are in cover and take advantage of 'vision clouds' such as ECM and UAVs, you should be safe.

Not getting seen also requires knowing where the enemy is and not being in direct LOS to them or their spotters.

Ideally, you want to get into exchanges where you can hit the enemy without being seen, in literally anything. However, in most circumstances, you will be seen while you are directly attacking the enemy, and inevitably you will be seen in a bad place on some occasions:


Don't Be Acquired:
This basically means not allowing the enemy to target/ aim at you or gather the correct information.

Firstly, information helps advise decision-making (a basic social science rule). If the enemy knows your strengths and weaknesses, then they can work to fight in terms of their strengths and your weaknesses. Furthermore, if you move in a manner that clearly seems in line with where the rest of your team is positioned, the enemy may also be able to anticipate where the rest of your team is.

Sensors, ECM, UAVs, and tactical deception are the only ways to improve on this.

Secondly, the enemy can't hurt you if they can't hit you where it hurts. If you use better sensors (so enemies can't tell where your weaknesses are) and use cover, including AMS, ECM, and teammates, then, even if you are seen, your enemies' sensors won't 'see' you.

However, even if they can see you:


Don't Be Hit:
Don't just stand there if you get shot at! Use cover when you trade and brawl. Move around and escape the situation.

If you come 1v1 against a mech with a definitive min range, move into their min range. If you come across a brawler (think dual HGR or knife-fighting light), then try to move outside their effective range.

It does not matter how powerful the enemy are. If they keep missing or firing blanks, they can't hurt you.

However, if you are a slow assault or you cannot escape to a better position then:


Don't Be Penetrated:
In MWO, you can spread damage across your mech. Torso twisting is the most basic technique. The idea is to not allow specific components of your mech to be destroyed, which will affect the overall performance of your mech, if not outright destroy it.

The idea of all the above points is:


Don't Be Killed:
If your mech is relatively heavily damaged, fall back and play more passively until you get good opportunities to hurt the enemy, or you become relatively unharmed again because the other players have taken damage. Hurt mechs generally perform worse than undamaged mechs.

If you die, your match is essentially shorter than the rest of the team. This means less points in: Damaging, Killing, Assisting, Scouting, Holding Positions, Capping, etc.

If you earn 300 match score each minute, then you would earn the same score in 1 minute as would a player earning 60 average match score per minute, over 5 minutes.

This means you need to balance aggression with caution. This does not mean charging into the enemy and trying to deal as much damage as possible in a short time, nor does this mean playing passively for 10 minutes and taking the occasional pot-shot.

If you survive too long, because you have been actively avoiding the enemy and letting the rest of your team take the enemy shots that will inevitably be fired, then one of 3 things will happen to you:

1. The enemy team gets wrecked and you will be too late to do anything useful.

2. Your team gets wrecked and you will just be an XP pinata for the enemy team for the rest of the match. This, by logic, is most likely since you being out of the fight will turn the match into 11 vs 12, etc. against you.

3. You steamroll the remaining 1 to 4 enemies, because they are too damaged to retaliate against you. This, by logic, is least likely since this requires a close, non-objective-based game to occur, and the enemy to actually be caught off guard by you by yourself.


This balance takes lots of time and experience to master, and can be drastically different between certain mech builds, maps, and even the time in each match. F I S S I O N and dario03 did not reach the top of the leaderboard just by registering into MWO and suddenly being excellent at the game (and if someone appeared to have done that, they are almost certainly an alt account or really are cheating). Play, learn, and be self-aware of your shortcomings, and you might get to the same level one day! Or, at the very least, perform better than you did before, hopefully at least average.


If you do not follow at least one part of Survival 101 or have at least a grain of self-awareness, then, regardless of what game you play:


You Will Be Killed:
And then you will get upset about the game. And then you will rant in the chat window and the forums about OP this and OP that. And then you will look like a donkey in the community. And then you will uninstall the game.

The End!

And don't forget folks! Everyone faces the same 'problems' in the same game. How YOU respond to the problems is all up to you.

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 27 July 2021 - 07:45 AM.

[1453 R]

That's not a bad breakdown, Crimson. Unfortunately a lot of people will see that breakdown and the originating image and think "if I'm behind a rock eight hundred meters from the fight, I'm not there, and if I'm not there I'm automatically doing everything else!" Far too many people equate survival with winning, figuring that if they're the last person alive on their team all the time they have to be doing something right. When, sadly, it's often exactly the opposite - they're consistently the last one alive on the team because they refuse to engage properly.

That entire image is in service to the idea of getting to a position where the first thing the enemy knows of your presence is your weapons fire impacting their face. The whole idea is to outperform the enemy, who are also trying to put that same image/breakdown into action. See before being seen; kill before being killed. If you don't shoot the enemy, it doesn't matter how sneaky you are - you WILL be found eventually, and then you will die.

[Saved By The Bell]

The Art of MWar

[Fresh Produce]

I am disappointed in you guys. The game is not perfect, therefor there is no reason to believe that greater understanding of the game will lead to greater enjoyment. Now, I personally enjoy the game even though I am a small laser enthusiast, and my chosen play style (assaults boating small or micro pulse lasers) hurts me more often than not. I am not going to suddenly start thinking the game is better just because I switch to a more efficacious play style and start winning more. There is a lot of damage flying down range quick right now; the OP's observation is correct, and his subjective experience of it is also valid regardless his personal ability to play. Besides, as others have pointed out, he maintains a positive win/loss ratio indicating he is, at minimum, an entirely acceptable player. You can't just invalidate his opinion with, "learn to play," or "moba terminology."

[Nightbird]

TTK in this game is longer than MW5 and BT and Table Top. MW5 is obvious, but for BT and Table Top keep in mind every turn is 10 seconds. Think about how often an assault mech dies in 1 or 2 turns, and compare that to MWO where most times you do not die that quickly unless someone gets into your back with a large alpha.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wildstreak, on 27 July 2021 - 01:49 AM, said:

It does not get difficult, it gets crazy. Actually looking at the details shows it was designed poorly. If it was designed well, there would be no damage reduction or God Mode mods but there are.

That wasn't my experience. MechWarrior 5 is nowhere near as hard as Halo on Legendary, or even Heroic difficulty, for example. I mean people have always searched out ways to make games easier. Back in the day, they were called "cheats". Now they are called "mods". Really speaks to the reality of entitlement culture.

[Gas Guzzler]

Fresh Produce, on 27 July 2021 - 10:22 AM, said:

I am disappointed in you guys. The game is not perfect, therefor there is no reason to believe that greater understanding of the game will lead to greater enjoyment. Now, I personally enjoy the game even though I am a small laser enthusiast, and my chosen play style (assaults boating small or micro pulse lasers) hurts me more often than not. I am not going to suddenly start thinking the game is better just because I switch to a more efficacious play style and start winning more. There is a lot of damage flying down range quick right now; the OP's observation is correct, and his subjective experience of it is also valid regardless his personal ability to play. Besides, as others have pointed out, he maintains a positive win/loss ratio indicating he is, at minimum, an entirely acceptable player. You can't just invalidate his opinion with, "learn to play," or "moba terminology."

The point is though, with his displayed stats, it indicates that he is an acceptable player, which indicates the "instagib" anecdotes he provides are an exaggeration, and the exception not the rule.

I, too, have been instagibbed for making a bad decision, but I also go many matches avoiding that situation entirely. It's all where you put the responsibility.

"I did nothing wrong and got instagibbed on occasion so its a problem with the game."

"Dang, that didn't work very well, I should be more careful about doing X action again."

[Storming Angel]

Nightbird, on 27 July 2021 - 10:31 AM, said:

TTK in this game is longer than MW5 and BT and Table Top. MW5 is obvious, but for BT and Table Top keep in mind every turn is 10 seconds. Think about how often an assault mech dies in 1 or 2 turns, and compare that to MWO where most times you do not die that quickly unless someone gets into your back with a large alpha.

Too be fair if it was any longer in the tabletop i would be surprised if peeps could finish games.

Think this is why you make your lore consistent and figure out durable something is, but that takes ages and most want to get straight into it.

Compared to all the fps's this has to be the second slowest i've played (World of warships being the slowest). So its not that bad too be fair.

[Fresh Produce]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 July 2021 - 10:48 AM, said:

The point is though, with his displayed stats, it indicates that he is an acceptable player, which indicates the "instagib" anecdotes he provides are an exaggeration, and the exception not the rule.

I, too, have been instagibbed for making a bad decision, but I also go many matches avoiding that situation entirely. It's all where you put the responsibility.

"I did nothing wrong and got instagibbed on occasion so its a problem with the game."

"Dang, that didn't work very well, I should be more careful about doing X action again."

I did not interpret his post as you did. I do not believe English is his first language.

I am sure we all have made a bad poke at some point or other and been punished with a severe beating, as you and he describes. Nobody is even going to be good enough, or even risk averse enough, to never make a bad peek. But the OP seems to be more displeased by the prevalence of high alpha long range builds. It seems to me that he is generally displeased with the poke meta rather than his anecdote of being instagibbed. There is a big difference between thinking you made no mistake, and thinking the mistake you made should not be punished so harshly. He thinks he could enjoy the game more with a longer time to kill. It seems like an entirely reasonable opinion to hold to me despite me not sharing it. What's the point of a forum if we are just going to be so dismissive of any one with a different view point, especially when a large minority seems to share it.

Edited by Fresh Produce, 27 July 2021 - 11:05 AM.

[1453 R]

MechWarrior Online has not changed significantly in somewhere around five years. In truth, it has not changed significantly since its introduction. we get new maps, new 'Mechs, occasionally new gear, but the overall game formula has remained almost exactly the same, and in the last three-ish years we've gotten no maps, less than ten 'Mechs, and no gear.

At this point, if you do a dumb and stick your nosehole out in front of an enemy firing line long enough to get merdered, it's not on Piranha - it's on you. It doesn't really matter what level of alpha players have access to - 4+ 'Mechs will always win a merder contest with a single 'Mech. The objective is to be on the 4+ side, not the single-'Mech side.

[pattonesque]

tomzah, on 27 July 2021 - 10:21 AM, said:

My thought exactly. I used to hate PGI for their past inaction. Since the release of the Corsair over 2 years ago there was long hiatus when nothing was happening. It would NEVER occur to me that I would want to go back to these times. Because we at least had something resembling weapon balance, maybe with exception of ATMs' 3rd stage damage. Cauldron with their absolutely nonsensical laser/ppc buffs along with PGI's greed-fueled ECM mech spam capitalizing on peoples cowardice literally butchered this game within few months. So what that clan laser vomits had higher alpha? Clan lasers were hotter and had longer duration so the DPS wasn't that much different from IS lasers vomits that ran cooler and shot faster and I've seen as many IS lasers boats carrying games as clan ones. There was no need to do anything about the lasers, if anything they should have nerfed the strongest ones, certainly not buff almost all of them including the already strongest ones such as cLPL, cERM and cMP. PGI has made many bad calls in the past but letting Cauldron call the shots was by far the worst. Moreover, the overabundance of ECM pretty much shut down the LRM which somebody may like but the fact is that it further decreases the build variety. Even with the active LRM play when you peek or jump to get your own locks with tag you get 100+ damage from all the lasers vomits and ppfld's before you even acquire lock and that's pretty much all you see nowadays... gausses, ppcs and lasers vomits. This game has lost any right to call itself mechwarrior... please rename it to "Robot arena X" or something more fitting the current meta.

way, way, way more weapons are viable now than before

Back in March it was CERPPC, ISMPL, UAC/10/5s, and occasionally LRMs

now you see smaller lasers, brawl builds, laservomit, a variety of PPCs, ATMs (when people realize that a 90-damage alpha is still very powerful), all kinds of autocannons, etc.

[Castigatus]

That's a heck of a lot of generalising you're doing there Tomzah, not to mention being completely inaccurate about around 50% of what you just said.

[Bud Crue]

tomzah, on 28 July 2021 - 12:11 AM, said:

While I can appreciate people who try to see the positive side of things I couldn't disagree more. The massive buff that the lasers received from HSL increase on IS side and range increases and/or heat decreases for both factions makes the other weapon classes buffs meaningless. Just look around the battlefield. If there are so many viable options why 90% of players are running lasers vomits, ppcs and gausses? Also, what are you talking about when you mention ATMs? They are actually among the weapons that were hit the most. Before you could see several ATM veagles every game and now? They vanished just like sparrows did from our city. Why do you think that is the case?

In my games of late folks leveling the new Timbers with various laser configs are certainly present, but I still see a tremendous amount of ATMs and LRMS (my match score padding from AMS has never been more substantial than it has been of late), lots of UAC and regular AC 2 builds, and the usual smattering of MRMs and the rest. Sometimes there are 1-2 Gauss vomit players (or more often none), the ubiquitous Snub/AC20 folks as well, but add all that up and it looks a lot more like a return to diversity rather than what you claim to be seeing.

As far as any perceived reduction in play, I would say that in my games its SRMs. Definitely not seeing as many played save for the occasional group running Arctic Wolfs. Also despite the various buffs, I still am not seeing much use of AC5s (or variations thereof) either.

tomzah, on 28 July 2021 - 12:11 AM, said:

No my friend, Cauldron's shortsightedness and reckless buffing with no thought of the consequences along with PGI's greed are killing this game. The only thing that can redeem it in my eyes and restore some build variety is ECM and global mid-long range laser nerf.

What? Buffs are killing the game, but ECM will help restore build variety? Not only does this not make any sense to me, but it makes me wonder if you have really played recently? ECM is ubiquitous. Like, sometimes the majority of mechs on the field have ECM in any given match.

Edited by Bud Crue, 28 July 2021 - 03:56 AM.