135 replies to this topic

[pattonesque]

If that was the meta then that's what competitive players would play. I don't understand the point.

[Gas Guzzler]

HauptmanT, on 03 August 2021 - 01:27 PM, said:

Skimmed past.
Went through on autopilot.
Didnt really pay attention.
Was too easy.

Pick whichever most aptly fits the topic at hand.

Wow, thanks.

None of those explain how I could have missed how difficult MW5 was. If you played through the game, you played through the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wildstreak, on 04 August 2021 - 10:37 AM, said:

This below.


Your post gave me the impression you played without really 'looking at what is going on under the hood.'
Like probably a number of people, you played Campaign and Career mode probably from when you got the game.

Me, I ignored them at first and started with Instant Action treating it like a Beta test. From seeing videos before buying, I was generally curious of the details of what was happening and wanted to see what changes were done from MWO.
Some are good, some are horrible.
I admit to having been tempted to start a topic for MWO players who did not get MW5 describing the differences just to see what would happen if MW5 changes were the standard for MWO.
For example, imagine the comp players trying to run Mechs with meta weapons being MGs, Flamers, quad-Gauss, maybe some Energy snipers.

I don't understand how this affects the difficulty of the game. Yes, some mechanics are different from MWO. The game itself doesn't require you to be amazing to play through it. The AI is not the same as competent players in MWO, and that is the point. Different loadouts working well doesn't mean it is somehow more difficult.

[Wildstreak]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 August 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

I don't understand how this affects the difficulty of the game. Yes, some mechanics are different from MWO. The game itself doesn't require you to be amazing to play through it. The AI is not the same as competent players in MWO, and that is the point. Different loadouts working well doesn't mean it is somehow more difficult.

Then you do not know how to analyze games from what you and others are posting.
Seems a measure of confirmation bias going on.
You try to simplify it to Player vs AI compared to Player vs Player.
That alone cannot validate any argument ever and creates a vacuum space where you wall out any other point including valid ones.
Yet another gamer myth to add to the list.

[pattonesque]

things that work in MW5 are different from things that work in MWO because you're facing AI pilots who have a significant miss chance programmed in. you're also facing things like vehicles which just require a single component breach to kill, and you're facing way more enemies than you would in a game of MWO.

they're simply different games

[PocketYoda]

technopredator, on 04 August 2021 - 09:36 AM, said:

[Redacted]

[Redacted] here, https://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab you can create a good build just like everybody else, easy and fast, so you can enjoy the game; and remember, if you can shoot them, so they can, so flank them, it means go on the sides. Have fun

Boating your own damage death star is not going to help stop the power creep.. The issue is the mechs being able to add whatever a player wants.. That is not Mechwarrior.. or Battletech..

Real skill would have been mechs with certain lore loadouts and players using said loadout specs to kill each other but no we have super fast deathstar mechs that boat crazy damage to kill each other.. thats not really a skilled game now is it.. Its basically loads of damage and fast ping times win..

No wonder there is only one real game mode.. deathmatch.. great job.

Edited by MechaGnome, 06 August 2021 - 06:10 AM.

[pattonesque]

MechaGnome, on 06 August 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

Boating your own damage death star is not going to help stop the power creep.. The issue is the mechs being able to add whatever a player wants.. That is not Mechwarrior.. or Battletech..

Real skill would have been mechs with certain lore loadouts and players using said loadout specs to kill each other but no we have super fast deathstar mechs that boat crazy damage to kill each other.. thats not really a skilled game now is it.. Its basically loads of damage and fast ping times win..

No wonder there is only one real game mode.. deathmatch.. great job.

If you had lore loadouts, guess what: players would still figure out the best ones and you’d be dying nearly as quickly

[pbiggz]

pattonesque, on 06 August 2021 - 06:46 AM, said:

If you had lore loadouts, guess what: players would still figure out the best ones and you’d be dying nearly as quickly

Living legends is always held up as some kind of paragon of balance, but LURM and Arrow IV boats and PPC/gauss poptarts are absolutely disgusting in that game. All people do is farm up cbills and ranks with a high-dps build, then zero in on whatever flavour of the month pre-built mech is best. Diverse maps and map conditions change up what is best, but there will always be a meta.

[pattonesque]

pbiggz, on 06 August 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

Living legends is always held up as some kind of paragon of balance, but LURM and Arrow IV boats and PPC/gauss poptarts are absolutely disgusting in that game. All people do is farm up cbills and ranks with a high-dps build, then zero in on whatever flavour of the month pre-built mech is best. Diverse maps and map conditions change up what is best, but there will always be a meta.

for real.

like "ahhh, now we have only lore loadouts, it looks like MWO is perfect for m--" *gets instantly obliterated by twenty ERPPCs from Warhawk-Primes, and maybe a few LRMs from people who misclicked*

[MechNexus]

MechaGnome, on 06 August 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

Boating your own damage death star is not going to help stop the power creep.. The issue is the mechs being able to add whatever a player wants.. That is not Mechwarrior.. or Battletech..

Real skill would have been mechs with certain lore loadouts and players using said loadout specs to kill each other but no we have super fast deathstar mechs that boat crazy damage to kill each other.. thats not really a skilled game now is it.. Its basically loads of damage and fast ping times win..

No wonder there is only one real game mode.. deathmatch.. great job.

You do realise that the tabletop has well written rules for custom mechs or refits of existing ones, right?

EDIT: It's all in Techmanual.

Edited by MechNexus, 06 August 2021 - 09:55 AM.

[1453 R]

What all these "Too Much Damage!" complaints always seem to boil down to is "I want to be able to stand in front of the entire enemy team for multiple minutes and walk away afterwards". Which is ridiculous. Even in tabletop, twelve 'Mechs would erase one 'Mech from the field in a single round pretty much no matter what.

The problem isn't in damage numbers, it's in game modes. MWO currently has exactly one game mode that demands the team be in more than one place at a time - Conquest. And everybody absolutely hates it because they think of it as Light 'Mech Paradise and CapWarrior Online and "No-Fighty-Mode", all the while complaining that they can never find a fight where they aren't facing the entire enemy team all clumped up together gibbing anything that pokes its nose out and voting religious for Domination.

Gee-I-wonder-if-forcing-a-team-to-cover-multiple-areas-and-not-focus-twelve-'Mechs'-firepower-on-one-spot-would-make-TTK-better.

Conquest is love, Conquest is life. Or at least Conquest is the least terrible of half a dozen godawful game modes in this game. Vote for it more often, don't ignore the caps when you get it, and be astounded how much better your games become.

Edited by 1453 R, 06 August 2021 - 09:37 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wildstreak, on 06 August 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

Then you do not know how to analyze games from what you and others are posting.
Seems a measure of confirmation bias going on.
You try to simplify it to Player vs AI compared to Player vs Player.
That alone cannot validate any argument ever and creates a vacuum space where you wall out any other point including valid ones.
Yet another gamer myth to add to the list.

Okay buddy, more meaningless nonsense, got it.

[MyriadDigits]

MechaGnome, on 06 August 2021 - 06:09 AM, said:

Boating your own damage death star is not going to help stop the power creep.. The issue is the mechs being able to add whatever a player wants.. That is not Mechwarrior.. or Battletech..

MWO actually has more restrictions than Tabletop Battletech does thanks to having hardpoints. TT actually doesn't have hardpoints at all, so the only thing stopping from giga-boating whatever you want is just money, facilities (depending on the "complexity" of the changes being made), skill rolls, and whether or not you mind the mech becoming a miniature star when you pull the trigger.

[MadBede]

1453 R, on 06 August 2021 - 09:36 AM, said:

What all these "Too Much Damage!" complaints always seem to boil down to is "I want to be able to stand in front of the entire enemy team for multiple minutes and walk away afterwards". Which is ridiculous. Even in tabletop, twelve 'Mechs would erase one 'Mech from the field in a single round pretty much no matter what.

The problem isn't in damage numbers, it's in game modes. MWO currently has exactly one game mode that demands the team be in more than one place at a time - Conquest. And everybody absolutely hates it because they think of it as Light 'Mech Paradise and CapWarrior Online and "No-Fighty-Mode", all the while complaining that they can never find a fight where they aren't facing the entire enemy team all clumped up together gibbing anything that pokes its nose out and voting religious for Domination.

Gee-I-wonder-if-forcing-a-team-to-cover-multiple-areas-and-not-focus-twelve-'Mechs'-firepower-on-one-spot-would-make-TTK-better.

Conquest is love, Conquest is life. Or at least Conquest is the least terrible of half a dozen godawful game modes in this game. Vote for it more often, don't ignore the caps when you get it, and be astounded how much better your games become.

Lol sure, i got no problem with mode i got problem with low TTK cos of turded alpha everyone can bring after buffs.

[1453 R]

And a hundred thousand people have told you, MadBede - alpha damage has nothing to do with it. It's the fact that people expose badly and catch fire from multiple enemy units. You don't lose because every 'Mech in MWO has a gargantuan alpha, you lose because nobody can ever trade fire with just one enemy, or a small lance-sized unit of enemies. Everybody murderballs like nitwits, and that means you get Clump Warfare where every jackhole on the planet is within two hundred meters of each other pointed the same direction.

Poke your nose out into a firing squad's crosshairs and you're gonna get executed.

If all game modes in this game required teams to split up and exist in multiple smaller groupings the way Conquest does, things would be wildly different. Murderballing would mean you lose for free because you just get outcapped, and people would engage in smaller groups. Engaging in smaller groups means less fire heading your way, which means you can move more aggressively or expose without getting annihilated by twelve enemy 'Mechs at once. It's also why 8v8 would reduce supposed "alpha" issues - less firepower on the field means your armor is worth more in comparison.

As it stands, the game is top-heavy with wildly disproportionate representation of heavy and assault 'Mechs because every single god damned game mode in MWO except Conquest rewards firepower over mobility. It doesn't matter if you only go thirty klicks an hour whilst carrying seventy tons of weaponry because the fight doesn't happen until you get to it anyways and there's no reason for you to go any faster. Smaller, quicker 'Mechs - which, oh-so-coincidentally, carry less firepower - are suppressed in a game which cares nothing about any objective save "Blow Up Enemy". Once you need to be in specific places, or need to hold more ground than your enemy? Those smaller, faster 'Mechs become drastically more valuable, and the value of plodding thirty-KPH gunmonster abortions that take ten years to get anywhere drops precipitously.

There's a lot of good reasons Conquest is undeniably, inarguably, uncontestably the best game mode in MWO. If you hate "turded alphas" so badly, stop voting for the game modes that allow thirty-KPH gunmonsters to dominate (hint: those modes are called Skirmish and Domination and they should NEVER be voted for) and start playing the modes that demand you make some sacrifices for mobility.

[Saved By The Bell]

Until you realize, that capping is not rewarding much.

[Dogstar]

Saved By The Bell, on 07 August 2021 - 10:51 PM, said:

Until you realize, that capping is not rewarding much.

A fair point, but 1453 R is right in general, one thing that has happened over the last few years, and was finalised by the Cauldron changes is that damage across the board has gone up and as a result light and medium mechs have become somewhat redundant. When a heavy mech can hit 80kph and mount a 50 point laser vomit (I think, no specific examples here) then most of the time light mechs are cannon fodder and medium mechs are pinatas.

I run my lights nowadays when I want to drop down PSR, because it's often difficult, without going total meta, to do enough damage to go up in PSR even on a win, and frankly, most of my medium mechs are the same.

Edited by Dogstar, 07 August 2021 - 11:44 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Imo both sides are right in their assessment in regard to high alpha builds and the muderball.

I have experienced the time when Mechs had 30 to 35 points of damage alphas and it was 8 vs 8 so the murderball was at most 6 mechs as at least 2 would allways scout, hang back, afk, wahtever so the oportunity to advance was much bigger and often rewarded taking the initiative.

These days the Alphas more probably be around 50 to 60 with some players exceeding even 100 points of damage and the murderball is at least 10 Mechs so the amount of firepower one faces today is roughly 2 to 3 times bigger depending if you face a single Mech or the Murderball PLUS the cooling is better, damage and crit multipliers have grown etc.
HSR has increased the ability to hit a Mech bcs ping differences no longer leave an uncertainte where to aim for as long its in the window of the HSR limitations.
So very probably its more 3 to 5 times the potential damage compared to MWOs beta days.

The protection has not kept up with that it is 5 points here, 10 points there...

The destructive power in the game has outgrown the protective strength of its targets by far!

You have a coverhopping playstyle left if you play with random people so you are less organized.
If you are very organized you can also play a rolling barrel style of advance by forcing the opposition to stay in cover and be unable to shot back.
Its both a rather lackluster style of gameplay in regard to the inherent entertainement value.

The entertaining low intensity high engagement small scale encounters of the beta days and early lifetime of the game are gone - its Mechmob vs Mechmob with no place for individuality...

Edited by Thorqemada, 08 August 2021 - 01:22 AM.

[Saved By The Bell]

Yesterday I tried to write message to my team. I was in fresh Champion. That time some Timber wolf suddenly appeared in front of me and shoot laser alfa strike. All front armor gone.

I press delete to return to usual move mode, but next alfa strike killed me (not head shoot). I was in shock.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 08 August 2021 - 02:01 AM.

[The Basilisk]

MechNexus, on 06 August 2021 - 09:30 AM, said:

You do realise that the tabletop has well written rules for custom mechs or refits of existing ones, right?

EDIT: It's all in Techmanual.

Yea waited for *that* argument.

Ppl who try to justify the hillarious take on mech customization of the MW series (except MW5!!!) with the "HURDUR it haz mechlab in TT too, red tha roolz book bro" argument always forget the main balancing point of BATTLETECH.

Availability of tech, costs and availability of a skilled/educated workforce.

And yea if you would have read the rules carefully and with eye to the spirit of the rules one of the first things stated in each and every itteration of the construction rules is that they are for flavor only and otherwisely have to be governed by the tech and availability rules of the extended campaigns section of the rules book.

So to put it even more clear: "If you used construction rules to minmax your mechs or your Units you basicaly played against the rules."

So how often will you encounter deliberately "tuned" mechs or top of the line Units like a Pillager, a Devestator or a Thunderhawk except in major storry line engagements ? Well 1 in a 1000 if at all.
How often would you meet a perfectly tuned to the likings of its pilot Omnimech in the Clan Tumans?
More often than in the IS but still a rare sight since Omnis are mostly configured for certain scenarios or simply according to supply and availability situations.(remember the first rule of all Clans is not make it dead but do not waste anything)

So, yes, the original opener of this post is right, the overoptimisation, the overboating and the completely hillarious powercreap that came into play with the last patches is just ridiculous and while entertaining for the lulz purposes quite boring in the long term.
Half of my mechs (everything below 75T mostly) sitting in my mech bays and gather dust since even a bad luck hit will twohit them.
And no, not by beeing focused down by half of the enemy team, but simply by getting a good salvo from a halfway "decently" build anything.

The only way to get halfway entertaining, interesting and enjoyable Matches atm is to deliberately stay below T3 since ppl there tend to use voice, use more than the center of any given map and do not just deathball and nascar each other to death within 2mins after the initial encounter.

And to get even clearer:

" HEY YOU METAFARMERS at the top of the foodchain with your so called meta (aka abusing inherent lack of gamedesign) you are boring the sh...out of everyone else "