71 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

Hauptmann Keg Steiner, on 22 August 2021 - 03:23 PM, said:

Had a Polar Assault game the other day where our team almost lost because 2 5Vs managed to sneak around the fight and stand on our base. It went from 0% to 95% captured in what felt like a few seconds; I don't even wanna think about how fast a full lance of Spiders can cap those things.

Yep! Imagine what it could do if its potential damage per game were increased by 100 or dare I say, 150 points? Why, we might have a 'Mech that can keep up with the worst Light 'Mechs *and* occasionally leave their team to die in a futile attempt to cap a base. Ker-ray-zy!

[pbiggz]

I might add here that a dedicated capping bot makes sense in a world where the win condition for a game mode is actually playing the game mode.

Since killing the other team is a way to win conquest, assault, and domination, they're really all just skirmish with extra steps.

If we had drop decks in quick play, suddenly capping people out on conquest, or beating the other team to a higher cap score by the end of the 15 minutes might actually be faster than chewing through 48 mechs. Holding the point until the countdown hits zero would actually be the win con for domination, and base capping/defense would actually be played on assault.

Is an unquirked cap-bot spider useless outside of specific competitive rule sets? Yes. But that's not because that spider is bad, its because the game does not reward, or even encourage you, to run it.

The game modes aren't good enough.

[Navid A1]

Fine then.
We'll crank it up to 11.

[Scout Derek]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2021 - 07:46 PM, said:

Fine then.
We'll crank it up to 11.

Make it 12 and I'll buy you a Oreo Milkshake

[LordNothing]

Navid A1, on 21 August 2021 - 06:45 PM, said:

The purpose of quirk passes is making mechs viable. and address their weaknesses in the roles they play.

Spider - 5V already has a very defined role as a cap bot and it is very good at it. A popular choice in competitions and faction play conquest scenarios.

With two CT energy hardpoints your only option is either cranking up the quirks to 11 (which still not going to make it really viable as a fighter), or doing a pass on the variant and give it new hardpoints,... which can be an idea.

Both options you'd have to take away or reduce its current unique capture quirk.

That said, PGI is testing a new set of quirks that will bring new functions. And some of the mechs in this pass will be getting some of those as well.



You want your continuous LPL zapper?... go look at what we put on the LCT-1V and SDR-5K. Which follows the thought process being presented here.
5V needs special treatment more than just quirks.



Also... this is quirk pass #1
28 Chassis. Neither we nor PGI can go through 100+ chassis in 2 weeks.
#1... meaning that more chassis are coming #2 #3... etc.

would moving the hardpoints to the sts be an option? would allow you to pack larger weapons. right now if you want to use a 2-slot weapon you effectively have one hardpoint. if thats too much of an advantage just move one to the head this would increase its max alpha to 17 with mpl+lpl (a more sensible build would be lpl+erml).

alternatively apply additional cd quirks to any 2-hardpoint energy weapons to make up for the other hp being unusable. take the 25% energy quirk that is already there and add an extra 15% for compatible 2-hardpoint weapons (snppc/lppc/ll/erll/lpl). perhaps an extra 10% range for the ppcs.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 August 2021 - 08:30 PM.

[Void Angel]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2021 - 07:46 PM, said:

Fine then.
We'll crank it up to 11.

Honestly, I think that it's OK for this one Spider to have a niche role; it can easily be revisited after poring over the eleventy billion other problem 'mechs that don't (so I'm told) get used in comp setups.

[LordNothing]

pbiggz, on 23 August 2021 - 06:32 AM, said:

I might add here that a dedicated capping bot makes sense in a world where the win condition for a game mode is actually playing the game mode.

Since killing the other team is a way to win conquest, assault, and domination, they're really all just skirmish with extra steps.

If we had drop decks in quick play, suddenly capping people out on conquest, or beating the other team to a higher cap score by the end of the 15 minutes might actually be faster than chewing through 48 mechs. Holding the point until the countdown hits zero would actually be the win con for domination, and base capping/defense would actually be played on assault.

Is an unquirked cap-bot spider useless outside of specific competitive rule sets? Yes. But that's not because that spider is bad, its because the game does not reward, or even encourage you, to run it.

The game modes aren't good enough.

they would also need to make objectives pay out better. even if i cant win faster with cap, if theres no score in it for me i still would prefer to skirmish it out, as would any other player with a brain and a non-infinite cbill budget.

[pbiggz]

LordNothing, on 24 August 2021 - 06:47 PM, said:

they would also need to make objectives pay out better. even if i cant win faster with cap, if theres no score in it for me i still would prefer to skirmish it out, as would any other player with a brain and a non-infinite cbill budget.

Precisely.

[R Valentine]

The Supernova got table scraps too. The chassis is basically begging for offensive quirks and it got... *drum roll* structure! Oh boy! That fixes everything! Now it can go in the list of S tier structure quirked mechs with the Nightstar!

[Novakaine]

If the 5V only had missile hard points it would be perfect.

[1453 R]

Kiran Yagami, on 25 August 2021 - 05:39 AM, said:

The Supernova got table scraps too. The chassis is basically begging for offensive quirks and it got... *drum roll* structure! Oh boy! That fixes everything! Now it can go in the list of S tier structure quirked mechs with the Nightstar!

Navid mentioned in the other thread that there would be more interesting quirks happening in the September pass, and that some Pass 1 'Mechs might pick those up, as well. This whole process is iterative - hell, they're still fiddling with weapon balance now, four patches after the initial weapon fix. Don't give up hope yet.

That said, secondary question: why is the ol' Stupornova 'begging' for offensive quirks? Big Offense quirks are generally the domain of Sphere 'Mechs that need the help more; us Clan pilots are intended to be content with getting more damage out of less tonnage. I'd figure the Stupornova would be wanting durability and maybe a bit of heat management over sheer offense? It's a Whale-sized pile of nonsense that's relatively easy to burn down, so it likes durability, but I don't see a lot of people volunteering to stand in front of a Stupornova for much longer than they'll stand in front of a Whale. Unless it's one of the idiotic LRM-80 Stupornova-As that don't bother with close-in weapons, at which point you deserve whatever you get in terms of being taken down by the myriad of things that can take down a 40-kph land barge of an LRM bloatboat.

[LordNothing]

Kiran Yagami, on 25 August 2021 - 05:39 AM, said:

The Supernova got table scraps too. The chassis is basically begging for offensive quirks and it got... *drum roll* structure! Oh boy! That fixes everything! Now it can go in the list of S tier structure quirked mechs with the Nightstar!

got my ace in a supernova, its fine.

Novakaine, on 25 August 2021 - 08:13 AM, said:

If the 5V only had missile hard points it would be perfect.

i believe you're looking for commando.

[Sjorpha]

I like the 5v being a dedicated capper and having it balanced around comp and Faction play. Especially since clan otherwise has a natural advantage in FP conquest with their faster heavies, so IS having the 5v is both a nice counterbalance and flavourful since IS is supposed to employ more specialized mechs.

The game has hundreds of mechs ffs, not every single one must be competitive in each mode. It's enough if each mech is good in at least one mode.

Most mechs are already being balanced towards quickplay, which makes sense since it's the biggest mode, but having a few balanced towards FP and comp is nice for those players.

The 5V has a niche application not filled by any other mech in the game and that's perfectly fine. If it needs more buffs I'd prefer ones that compliments that niche further, sensor and target aquisition quirks perhaps? Make it a better scout when not capping.

Edited by Sjorpha, 26 August 2021 - 02:59 AM.

[R Valentine]

1453 R, on 25 August 2021 - 08:23 AM, said:

Navid mentioned in the other thread that there would be more interesting quirks happening in the September pass, and that some Pass 1 'Mechs might pick those up, as well. This whole process is iterative - hell, they're still fiddling with weapon balance now, four patches after the initial weapon fix. Don't give up hope yet.

That said, secondary question: why is the ol' Stupornova 'begging' for offensive quirks? Big Offense quirks are generally the domain of Sphere 'Mechs that need the help more; us Clan pilots are intended to be content with getting more damage out of less tonnage. I'd figure the Stupornova would be wanting durability and maybe a bit of heat management over sheer offense? It's a Whale-sized pile of nonsense that's relatively easy to burn down, so it likes durability, but I don't see a lot of people volunteering to stand in front of a Stupornova for much longer than they'll stand in front of a Whale. Unless it's one of the idiotic LRM-80 Stupornova-As that don't bother with close-in weapons, at which point you deserve whatever you get in terms of being taken down by the myriad of things that can take down a 40-kph land barge of an LRM bloatboat.

Because all of the SNVs save the A and the C have arm weapons, some of them 100% arm weapons and the arms are low slung. It has to pretty much expose everything to get guns on target, which means to be viable it has to be able to win exchanges with all weapons clear. With only 8 energy points max, other clan energy boats can do the same or better and not be fully exposed. So even at full exposure, the SNV doesn't win exchanges without quirks. So it's either offensive quirks or bust. The mech's hit boxes aren't the greatest either.

[1453 R]

That's a Bad Geo problem, and Bad Geo problems have traditionally been fixed with defensive quirks to improve the durability of the machine and compensate for it being easier to shoot. 'Other Clan energy boats' aren't ninety-ton assault 'Mechs, with the exception of a couple of the MAD-IICs that come close enough at 85. Granting the Supernova enough offense quirks to "win trades" with MAD-IICs or Dire Whales means it becomes oppressive to all the other junk out there that already fails to win trades with MAD-IICs or Dire Whales, i.e. basically everything else in MWO. I'm certainly not gonna stand in front of a Supernova and assume I'm fine because it's no Whale or Marauder; it'll eat my blurdy lunch.

So yeah. Some lighter offense quirks maybe sure, but mostly beef up its defense and let it make its own way in the world, free and light.

[R Valentine]

1453 R, on 26 August 2021 - 07:11 AM, said:

That's a Bad Geo problem, and Bad Geo problems have traditionally been fixed with defensive quirks to improve the durability of the machine and compensate for it being easier to shoot. 'Other Clan energy boats' aren't ninety-ton assault 'Mechs, with the exception of a couple of the MAD-IICs that come close enough at 85. Granting the Supernova enough offense quirks to "win trades" with MAD-IICs or Dire Whales means it becomes oppressive to all the other junk out there that already fails to win trades with MAD-IICs or Dire Whales, i.e. basically everything else in MWO. I'm certainly not gonna stand in front of a Supernova and assume I'm fine because it's no Whale or Marauder; it'll eat my blurdy lunch.

So yeah. Some lighter offense quirks maybe sure, but mostly beef up its defense and let it make its own way in the world, free and light.

Oppressive how? It'll never win a trade against a Dire Wolf. The Dire Wolf's ability to fit weapons will always outclass the SNV. It also has more armor, now with quirks. It'll never win trades against a Mad Cat II. Again, superior hardpoint count and allocation. The best you can hope for is to give it a roll as long range, so that in some circumstances it can win exchanges against the MADIIC or the Mad Cat II or the Dire Wolf. Right now it is doomed to lose exchanges against all 3 in any circumstance. At least give it a niche. Even if that niche is weapon specific.

[1453 R]

This really isn't the thread to carp on the Supernova. Start a new one and I'll jump over there. But I will simply say this. I could point out the number of Inner Sphere assault 'Mechs that wish they could "win trades with a Dire Whale, even under niche circumstances". And that number is "all of them". An Annihilator will probably - probably - win an all-out brawl with a Dire Whale, but that Anni will be grievously wounded and mostly useless after doing so. Everything else loses trades for free, and frankly so does the Annihilator - the dumb thing just has the potential to out-stubborn a Whale if the pilot's very good and the Whale has poor cooling. So saying 'the Supernova is bad because it can't win trades with the King of Fatness' doesn't strike me as a compelling argument.

[R Valentine]

1453 R, on 26 August 2021 - 08:21 AM, said:

This really isn't the thread to carp on the Supernova. Start a new one and I'll jump over there. But I will simply say this. I could point out the number of Inner Sphere assault 'Mechs that wish they could "win trades with a Dire Whale, even under niche circumstances". And that number is "all of them". An Annihilator will probably - probably - win an all-out brawl with a Dire Whale, but that Anni will be grievously wounded and mostly useless after doing so. Everything else loses trades for free, and frankly so does the Annihilator - the dumb thing just has the potential to out-stubborn a Whale if the pilot's very good and the Whale has poor cooling. So saying 'the Supernova is bad because it can't win trades with the King of Fatness' doesn't strike me as a compelling argument.

There are IS mechs than can exchange with the Dire Whale. The Stalker and the Battlemaster have much better peek profiles and the Annihilator is loaded with armor quirks. It's peek profile isn't half bad either. And those that can't have similar issues to the SNV. Bad hardpoint placement. Low hardpoint count. Ineffective or insufficient quirks. The fix is the same, more quirks. Quirks are literally the only thing PGI will change about a mech.

And you've cherry picked my argument down to just the Dire Whale, when I mentioned 2 other mechs that do anything the SNV can do better. The SNV also loses to the Battlemaster, the Stalker, and the Annihilator. Not only that, the Dire Wolf is far from "the king of fatness". For all it's massive firepower, it's under armored, has terrible hit boxes, unbearably slow, and also has poor hardpoint placement. How many buffs have they had to throw at the Dire Wolf before people even considered fielding it again? So the SNV loses to an already underpowered mech.

[RickySpanish]

1453 R, on 26 August 2021 - 08:21 AM, said:

This really isn't the thread to carp on the Supernova. Start a new one and I'll jump over there. But I will simply say this. I could point out the number of Inner Sphere assault 'Mechs that wish they could "win trades with a Dire Whale, even under niche circumstances". And that number is "all of them". An Annihilator will probably - probably - win an all-out brawl with a Dire Whale, but that Anni will be grievously wounded and mostly useless after doing so. Everything else loses trades for free, and frankly so does the Annihilator - the dumb thing just has the potential to out-stubborn a Whale if the pilot's very good and the Whale has poor cooling. So saying 'the Supernova is bad because it can't win trades with the King of Fatness' doesn't strike me as a compelling argument.

Direwolf only wins trades at range, where every single shot directed at it won't hit its CT. Its only truly outstanding build is the UV AC-2 x 8 build for the aformentioned reason. Pretty much any other build is going to be worrying about its CT versus other Assaults. Direwolf is the epitomy of Clan tech in MWO - massive firepower, really poor survivability. Also since you asked about the Supernova, it seems only reasonable that Kiran "carped" about it.

[JC Daxion]

Well after thinking about it more, and seeing the quirks on the K, machine guns and energy, it makes me think that one will fill the lpl or snub roll nicely. So if a niche mech for comp style play is in the game, i think i'm good with that