36 replies to this topic

[GLaDOSauR]

Hierarch, on 29 August 2021 - 03:35 PM, said:

I believe I had made it clear why I thought they are OP. They are lighter in equivalency to PPC's they do more damage then PPC's and they're cooler then PPC's. This makes little difference on heavy mechs, but on light mechs it makes a mile of difference. And it's not just PPC's they outclass they also outclass LPL, LL's and ERLL's. And I don't think taking up an extra slot or two makes up for any of this.

There's tons of weapons groups where light mechs run the smallest versions better than the larger ones. Next you'll be complaining that lights run ac2s instead of ac5s and that means that ac2s are op. On any mechs heavier than ~50 tons, standard ppcs are more efficient than light ppcs.

Edited by GLaDOSauR, 29 August 2021 - 04:23 PM.

[Hierarch]

Wow didn't answer to any of my responses and a Strawman fallacy. Stay Classy.

Edited by Hierarch, 29 August 2021 - 07:53 PM.

[Biomechtric]

Hierarch, on 27 August 2021 - 11:57 PM, said:

If that's the case then seems a little *****, with trip LPPC you only need to land 40 shots so 40 times 3 = 2 minutes that's obviously optimal base line firing.

Compare that to the base line PPC, PPC deals less damage is a ton more, same range, has near range drop off and a longer cool down.
Compare that to the LPL which does the same damage is a ton more weight and has less range

I don't know why we're factoring in JJ's but my spider build fits 3 LPPC's JJ's and heatsinks in with max engine.

If I have to explain the major weaknesses of Small Lasers, I'll just assume you're trolling.

I think Ash mentioned jump jets because they generate heat & prevent any cooling when being used & if a mech is running PPC's along with them it's a pretty safe bet that they will be pop tarting a lot(if not why all the wasted tonnage?) & hence extra heat is built up. Jumping would be a must if the pilot was to keep up with firing a shot as soon as the weapon is on cooldown such as in the example you gave.
At a guess(not tested) I would add at least 30 seconds on to your 2 minute time to allow for the venting of the jump jet heat.
Also lets not forget the good old medium laser 1 slot, 1 ton & 5 damage... 3 of them at 3 ton's 15 damage for only 3 slots, now the light PPC doesn't seem so op..

[Hierarch]

Biomechtric, on 29 August 2021 - 08:22 PM, said:

I think Ash mentioned jump jets because they generate heat & prevent any cooling when being used & if a mech is running PPC's along with them it's a pretty safe bet that they will be pop tarting a lot(if not why all the wasted tonnage?) & hence extra heat is built up. Jumping would be a must if the pilot was to keep up with firing a shot as soon as the weapon is on cooldown such as in the example you gave.
At a guess(not tested) I would add at least 30 seconds on to your 2 minute time to allow for the venting of the jump jet heat.
Also lets not forget the good old medium laser 1 slot, 1 ton & 5 damage... 3 of them at 3 ton's 15 damage for only 3 slots, now the light PPC doesn't seem so op..

Any effect Jump Jetting would have though on any estimation can't be used for or against an assessment though as the same is true in all situations with all weapon systems. There is nothing to argue about your point there other then the other trade offs. Obviously Range, Pinpoint damage are a huge selling feature which is why I compared them to similar weapon systems that hit at similar ranges. You and I both know that if DPS out was all that mattered the game would be incredibly different from how it is today.

[GLaDOSauR]

Hierarch, on 29 August 2021 - 07:52 PM, said:

Wow didn't answer to any of my responses and a Strawman fallacy. Stay Classy.

It's not a strawman, but if you were going to compare it to a fallacy the slippery slope one would be *marginally* more applicable, but still incorrect. Also, I made the mistake of assuming you'd be able to connect my logic, but if you want it spelled out here we go:

The reason I didn't bother addressing the fact that light ppcs are more efficient than standards in the tonnage limits lights work with, is that I had already laid that out in an earlier post. Because it's true. My point was that it's not a problem. Light ppcs being a stronger option than standard ppcs on light mechs is in no way a balance issue. Not every weapon system needs to be viable on every chassis. Which is what I was getting at with my "strawman".

Edited by GLaDOSauR, 29 August 2021 - 10:07 PM.

[Hierarch]

GLaDOSauR, on 29 August 2021 - 09:58 PM, said:

It's not a strawman, but if you were going to compare it to a fallacy the slippery slope one would be *marginally* more applicable, but still incorrect. Also, I made the mistake of assuming you'd be able to connect my logic, but if you want it spelled out here we go:

The reason I didn't bother addressing the fact that light ppcs are more efficient than standards in the tonnage limits lights work with, is that I had already laid that out in an earlier post. Because it's true. My point was that it's not a problem. Light ppcs being a stronger option than standard ppcs on light mechs is in no way a balance issue. Not every weapon system needs to be viable on every chassis. Which is what I was getting at with my "strawman".

All I really got from this is that we can now move past the BS talking points of "but it's an extra crit slot" to yes, they do out perform other weapon systems on light mechs. You can agree or disagree with me on if that makes them OP or not all you like but at least now we're being intellectually honest.

Edited by Hierarch, 29 August 2021 - 11:59 PM.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

how anybody can bring up MPL´s or ML´s into this discussion as an comparrision to LPPC´s is beyong me

[Curccu]

1312SHR1312, on 30 August 2021 - 01:16 AM, said:

how anybody can bring up MPL´s or ML´s into this discussion as an comparrision to LPPC´s is beyong me

Well LPL, LL and ERLL was already included by OP and small lasers by my so why not mix it all.

[Biomechtric]

1312SHR1312, on 30 August 2021 - 01:16 AM, said:

how anybody can bring up MPL´s or ML´s into this discussion as an comparrision to LPPC´s is beyong me

I used the mediums as an example as 3 of them have the same slots and tonnage but do more damage & so could(with the OP's logic) be considered over powered. simple really.
GLaDOSauR has his head in the right place, if all weapons & mechs were equal it would make the game boring, stale with no marketing options for PGI 'Do you wanna buy a mech pack' kinda falls flat on its *** if there is no variety.
What are the Cauldron trying to do right now? they are attempting to revert balance changes made by PGI that were trying to balance all mechs & weapons to be equal performers & that did exactly as I stated, lacking variety, every match a nascar etc, etc.

[Hierarch]

1312SHR1312, on 30 August 2021 - 01:16 AM, said:

how anybody can bring up MPL´s or ML´s into this discussion as an comparrision to LPPC´s is beyong me

I'm just taking it as proof they're Forum Warriors and not Mech Warriors.

[GLaDOSauR]

Hierarch, on 29 August 2021 - 11:59 PM, said:

All I really got from this is that we can now move past the BS talking points of "but it's an extra crit slot" to yes, they do out perform other weapon systems on light mechs. You can agree or disagree with me on if that makes them OP or not all you like but at least now we're being intellectually honest.

The reason the crit slot/hardpoint/weight efficiency matters is when you move up to heavier mechs that actually have more than ~12 tons to work with. 4LL is a much better loadout than 6lppc, but obviously that doesn't apply when we're discussing light mech balance.

[Doktorbike]

Hierarch, on 30 August 2021 - 02:16 AM, said:

I'm just taking it as proof they're Forum Warriors and not Mech Warriors.

Says a person that has only 830 games & until maybe recently hasn't played since March 2020.....
Some people might not have played much recently but that some may have way, way more experience.

[An6ryMan69]

Light PPCS are okay.

I think they fit into the Inner Sphere PPC family quite well, and the PPC family right now makes sense, except for the HPPC still having a hard minimum range, which should have been changed to match the standard PPC range ramp-up.

On light mechs, as long as it has the hardpoints, I will always take three medium lasers over one LPPC for the same weight. Not even close in effectiveness if you ask me. If IS light mechs generally had more hardpoints like Clan mechs often do, you'd see quite a few less LPPC's in play.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 08 April 2022 - 11:32 AM.

[Clay Endfield]

Clan ER-LLs and Clan ER-PPCs are used by so many lights, plz nerf.

[Curccu]

An6ryMan69, on 08 April 2022 - 11:29 AM, said:

On light mechs, as long as it has the hardpoints, I will always take three medium lasers over one LPPC for the same weight. Not even close in effectiveness if you ask me. If IS light mechs generally had more hardpoints like Clan mechs often do, you'd see quite a few less LPPC's in play.

Reply to necromancer.

How does that 3xML effectiveness works at 500-600meters?
With more hardpoints this wouldn't change really, LPPC is it's own playstyle that you cannot replace with anything with burntime, sure I would like to have some 35 tonnerthat could take ~16 small lazors but not gonna happen, might be even OP.... among lights.

[Staude Coston]

Clay Endfield, on 09 April 2022 - 12:47 AM, said:

Clan ER-LLs and Clan ER-PPCs are used by so many lights, plz nerf.

Clan nerf
bull ****

[Clay Endfield]

Staude, on 09 April 2022 - 01:13 AM, said:

Clan nerf
bull ****

Bud, I'm commenting on the lunacy of wanting to nerf a weapon because of community usage due to tonnage restrictions. If IS Lights could effectively run gauss rifles and multiple PPCs, they would. The reason so many IS lights run L-PPCs is because they are limited to a far smaller arsenal. The L-PPC is about as close to an ideal mid-range weapon as IS Lights can get. And with the meta so incredibly biased towards long-range engagement, it's no wonder so many light mechs are boating L-PPCs.

The OP doesn't have a rational behind demanding a L-PPC nerf; they just noticed a bunch light mechs using L-PPCs and assumed that their popularity was because L-PPCs were broken, not because the meta demands ranged weaponry.

Edited by Clay Endfield, 09 April 2022 - 01:19 PM.