40 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 01 September 2021 - 01:27 PM, said:

-Le Snip-
It's one of those designs that should've just stayed in tabletop...

I mean, you can say that about a lot of things in MWO. And the part about just being cheaper than bigger mechs applies to most lights and mediums in the BT universe.

Quirks can save literally anything if applied in excessive enough quantities. Look at what they did for the Urbanmech. The only obstacle is PGI's willingness to actually use the system they created, which is admittedly a freaking gigantic nearly insurmountable obstacle but the new Cauldron regime gives a tiny glimmer of hope (just look at how bonkers the Centurion quirks are now).

Generally I think we should prioritize adding mechs that need very little to no quirking assistance, but the fact of the matter is that the mech is already here and it's not going anywhere unless you build a time machine to prevent it from getting added to the game. We might as well make it useful.

Edited by FupDup, 01 September 2021 - 01:39 PM.

[1453 R]

I get it. And improving its agility is as good a place to start as any. But the Cougar is one of those 'Mechs that can't really be saved by shorter weapon cooldowns, outside of 1000% Quickdraw nonsense. It needs new kind of quirks, as do a great many 'Mechs, in order to be worthwhile over almost anything else in quick play. The CN9-D is amusing mostly because it's an outlier; its unique in that it has an absurdly large cooldown bonus for LBX autocannons. If over a hundred other 'Mechs had 40+% cooldown quirks because "big enough quirks can save anything", then those big-enough quirks become a new problem on their own in that 'Mechs that don't have those quirks become useless in turn. Why bother with 'Mechs that don't have double-firepower quirks, after all?

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 01 September 2021 - 01:47 PM, said:

I get it. And improving its agility is as good a place to start as any. But the Cougar is one of those 'Mechs that can't really be saved by shorter weapon cooldowns, outside of 1000% Quickdraw nonsense. It needs new kind of quirks, as do a great many 'Mechs, in order to be worthwhile over almost anything else in quick play. The CN9-D is amusing mostly because it's an outlier; its unique in that it has an absurdly large cooldown bonus for LBX autocannons. If over a hundred other 'Mechs had 40+% cooldown quirks because "big enough quirks can save anything", then those big-enough quirks become a new problem on their own in that 'Mechs that don't have those quirks become useless in turn. Why bother with 'Mechs that don't have double-firepower quirks, after all?

The answer is to not give that level of quirkening to a hundred other mechs. The Cougar's innate weaknesses are high enough that it would be extremely hard to make OP (almost literally needs Quickdraw 1000% quirks for that).

As for new "kinds" of quirks, there's not that many options that I know of. Ammo quirks would be nice for mounting more guns but wouldn't be a gamechanger in most cases. I can't really think of much else other than just straight-up increased damage on certain weapons (i.e. Clan ERPPC gets +50% damage and -100% splash). More crit damage like the High Explosive skill gives probably wouldn't be impressive. Aaaaaaand I'm out of ideas.

[1453 R]

That's the problem. Mucking with weapon properties, making things faster or colder or the like, can only go so far. Quirks don't change a 'Mech's fundamental behavior, the way it moves or acts, and for some 'Mechs their fundamental behavior is the problem. The Cougar is a light 'Mech slower than most Clan heavy 'Mechs with terrible geo that carries a small number of 'hard-hitting' weapons. Nothing about it is desirable from a MWO perspective. Give it a 40% cooldown quirk and it will still suck, because the Cougar doesn't have the armor or geo to stand and deliver and thus make use of that cooldown quirk. Give it fifty extra points of armor on all locations to go with the 40% cooldown so it can use the 40% quirk, and you have people asking "why does this heavy 'Mech get to weigh only thirty-five tons?"

The Cougar needs new kinds of quirks. Quirks that change its behavior in meaningful ways. What those are, I don't know off the top of my head, but they can't just be "15% more pulse laser". HBS BattleTech did a better job with their Unique Equipment on the Heavy Metal 'Mechs, where each of them had a cool thing with its own unique name that existed in the 'Mech and altered its behavior. Even if that alteration was something as simple as "20% more PPC" in the case of the Warhammer (one of the lamest such abilities, really), that was much cooler than just slapping a bunch of meaningless patches on something.

Or, to put it shortly: yes, big enough XML edit numbers could "save" the Cougar. But every 'mech you "save" that way makes the game worse. XML tweaks are lame and should not at all be the only thing quirks can do.

[FupDup]

A lot of the HBS quirks were mostly based around either lethality or durability like MWO, with the main difference being that they were more mech-specific and weapon-specific rather than generic (i.e. only the Vulcan got range boosted support weapons, whereas in MWO many mechs get range boosts for most weapon types).

Basically what makes MWO's quirks feel a lot less unique than HBS is the copypasting genericness rather than an inherent problem with boosting firepower or whatever. The first quirkening wave had an issue with making people take only one build, but now the pendulum swung to the opposite extreme where something has to be excessive to stand out from the crowd.

Edited by FupDup, 01 September 2021 - 02:50 PM.

[MadHornet]

1453 R, on 01 September 2021 - 01:27 PM, said:

Nobody pilots a Cougar to be zippy. People pilot the worthless things because they want to be 65% gun and think it's neat to have a light 'Mech carry moderate medium 'Mech level firepower. Yes, I said "moderate medium 'Mech". No, the Cougar does not, and never will, carry "heavy 'Mech" level firepower. It has eighteen and a half tons of pod space assuming maximum effective armor; the Huntsman and Stormcrow both beat the pants off the Cougar firepower-wise, the Nova nearly matches it even with STD armor and structure plus six and a half tons of fixed non-weapon equipment. Both medium Clan BattleMechs blow the Cougar all the way out of the water firepower-wise, and the medium 'Mechs that 'lose' to the Cougar in a firepower contest are also the ones that blow it all the way out of the water in terms of mobility.

The Cougar is a bad 'Mech that should feel bad. Its only function, in the original TT canon, was to be cheap and relatively easy to produce by OmniMech standards. In MWO it's slow as hell and carries limited firepower. Making it maneuver more quickly, accelerate and decelerate better to poke more effectively, would indeed make it better, but that would not make it good. Anything a Cougar can do, a Stormcrow can do strictly better in every conceivable sense. The Adder only carries two less tons of weaponry in exchange for much better agility and groundspeed that's merely disappointing rather than Unacceptaburu. It's one of those designs that should've just stayed in tabletop, and damn the MW4 appearance.

I equip 2 HLL and 4 ERML on my cougar which comes to 62 point alpha, which is what some hellbringers run, and about matches anything a linebacker can do with lasers. Sure maybe I'm stretching it a little but technically it can run "heavy mech firepower" if you count those, albeit less heat efficiency.

EDIT: HEH, exchanged the ERML's for heavy mediums and now it's 76 point alpha. It has heat issues but that is absolutely heavy mech firepower, prove me wrong.

Edited by MadHornet, 01 September 2021 - 03:49 PM.

[Wid1046]

FupDup, on 01 September 2021 - 01:53 PM, said:

[redacted]
i.e. Clan ERPPC gets +50% damage and -100% splash
[redacted]

FYI, I asked Navid about what quirks are possible a couple months ago (I was trying to think up a way to fix the SDR-5V) and he confirmed that quirks that increase damage, lower slot requirements, or lower the weight of weapons are impossible. Any skill in the skill tree can be turned into a quirk however (like speed tweak or magazine capacity).

[YueFei]

Maybe think along lines other than firepower/armor/agility.

Like, free Seismic Sensor with massive bonus Seismic Range?
Free extra consumable slots?
Massively reduced laser burn time?
Free 100% Radar Deprivation, plus 1000% Target Info Gathering speed, plus reduction in the sensor range at which enemies can target you? I feel that these would thematically tie into the mech's name, because Cougars are ambush predators which try to target a prey's weak spot with a short sharp aggressive attack, but not so much stamina.

[FupDup]

YueFei, on 01 September 2021 - 04:05 PM, said:

Massively reduced laser burn time?

I count that under firepower.

Sensor stuff is an option but I feel like that's more suited for something like the Raven, Spider 5V, or other "recon" mechs. And I'm not sure anyone would use the Cougar just because it can get instant target info.

[BLOODREDSIN]

FupDup, on 01 September 2021 - 12:46 PM, said:

It's not the only light mech with this drawback. Look at every other Clan light Omnimech with the exception of the Kit Fox. The Mist Lynx has 1 open slot per leg. Cheetah and Adder have no open slots. There are plenty of Omnimechs above the light class that can't put anything in their legs.

Myst lynx has 6 jump jets, it would be impossible to fit 3 in each leg and have room for the other components. Cougar has 4 jump jets.

Arctic cheetah has jump jets in his legs just like i propose the Cougar gets.

Adder is not even on the table here as it does not jump. And i was speaking in comparison of light mechs when i pointed out that only the cougar was selected among all lights to have forced armor in his leg slots.

FupDup, on 01 September 2021 - 12:46 PM, said:

PGI takes liberties with stuff like weapon stats and quirks. They generally don't take liberties with the construction rules, other than a few recent slot reductions on some IS weapons. I don't count the engine/JJ rule differences under this because there's no point to honoring those in a game like this.

And frankly, where would you even put the fixed armor slots that currently sit in the legs? You're going to have to pay the slot tax for that Ferro-Fibrous Armor one way or another.

Like i said before they take liberties with all sorts of stuff, including things that flat out break lore - And speaking about liberties, didn't the latest patch take some liberties where the myst lynx is concerned?

As far as the armor goes you swap it to the side torsos in exchange for the jump jets going to the legs. I never mentioned a word about getting free armor or two free slots.

[1453 R]

...what would putting the Cougar's pod-mounted jump jets into the legs even accomplish? What's the endgame? Are you asking Piranha to hard-lock the jets into the Cougar's legs so you can equip weapon-bearing ST omnipods instead? If so, are you sure about that? Because you'd be giving up basically all the advantage of free pod space the Cougar gets over the Adder by bolting in two tons of hardlocked jumps. Not only do you break every other stock pod configuration, but it feels like it doesn't really gain you anything?

[Gas Guzzler]

I think this is my favorite Cougar build:

cou-primes

It is just okay, I would tend to agree it needs a bit more help.

[BLOODREDSIN]

It would accomplish the act of making all cougar chassis jump capable without penalizing them. The endgame is fun. Who doesn't want a more versatile mech? JJ also give you more mobility. If you are someone who does not want JJ on your Cougar then lets make them removable, just like they did for the active probe on the myst lynx last patch. There's your 2 tons back and no loss space. If you want to jump however, that will cost you the standard 2 tons for 4 JJ on a Cougar.

Maybe i'm just dumb and blind here at this moment, but can you give some examples of how this breaks all stock pod configs? What are some load outs that you feel will no longer be possible if this were done?

I know you guys don't see it as any real improvement and want more significant changes and i am not opposed to that or to hearing even more ideas. But that penalty for equipping JJ associated with this chassis, which we are discussing because we want to help it, has got to go.

[1453 R]

You're asking to switch the jump jets on the COU-H from the torso into the legs. Every other COU has fixed armor slots in the legs. When you switch the COU-H legs into another cougar, there's a slot conflict, and when you use the COU-H side torsos with extra ferro in them on another COU chassis, you're now paying four more slots than you need to for Ferro.

Now, I get it - you're asking for Piranha to unlock armor/structure and just let it float like on BattleMechs so you can have the best of all worlds. Okay. What's the drawback for OmniTech, then? The fixed base chassis is the price Omnis pay for being OmniMechs. Some items are fixed in the lore that don't really make sense, such as the Adder's flamer or the Mist Lynx's active probe. Armor and structure slot allocations, on the other hand, are just kinda there. There's no reason to break them loose unless you're redoing the customization rules for all OmniMechs period. And...well. That ain't gonna happen.

[BLOODREDSIN]

1453 R, on 02 September 2021 - 08:56 AM, said:

You're asking to switch the jump jets on the COU-H from the torso into the legs.

Correct, available to all Cougar chassis. Lets make them removable similar to the recent myst lynx \ probe change. Removable ( in case you don't want them or need 2 more tons and dont mind being grounded) jump jets to all Cou chassis in the legs. The armor currently in the legs goes to the L\R side torsos ( unless you choose not to equip the JJ ).

1453 R, on 02 September 2021 - 08:56 AM, said:

Every other COU has fixed armor slots in the legs. When you switch the COU-H legs into another cougar, there's a slot conflict, and when you use the COU-H side torsos with extra ferro in them on another COU chassis, you're now paying four more slots than you need to for Ferro.

Its exactly the same legs on them all. I never mentioned anything whatsoever about swapping the Cou-H legs into other cougar variants. Could be a good idea, just mount them on the H variant and if you want them equip them. Maybe that would be easier but like i say, if you do it that way and just simply attach them to the Cou-H leg pods then once its equipped on a variant, the armor slots go to the torsos.

Additionally, if this happened, there is no need to swap in a Cou-H side torso unless they added 1 weapon hard point to each one. With the JJ in the legs now... you use whatever Cougar side torsos you want. There is no extra ferro involved, and there is nothing pointing towards paying 4 more slots than you need for ferro either and now Cougar pilots are not being penalized x2 weapon hardpoints for jumping. Its a direct swap. 4 armor slots in the legs traded to the L\R side torsos (if you equip JJ) and 4 JJ in the side torsos swapped to the leg slots currently occupied by the fixed armor slots. Its a direct swap like i said, there is no loss of podspace as far as i can tell , there is no slot conflicts, 57 \ 78 slots no matter what. The slot availability, tonnage, armor, its all the same as it is right now.

1453 R, on 02 September 2021 - 08:56 AM, said:

Now, I get it - you're asking for Piranha to unlock armor/structure and just let it float like on BattleMechs so you can have the best of all worlds. Okay. What's the drawback for OmniTech, then? The fixed base chassis is the price Omnis pay for being OmniMechs. Some items are fixed in the lore that don't really make sense, such as the Adder's flamer or the Mist Lynx's active probe. Armor and structure slot allocations, on the other hand, are just kinda there. There's no reason to break them loose unless you're redoing the customization rules for all OmniMechs period. And...well. That ain't gonna happen.

Well that would be interesting if they did that. Why has there got to be a drawback for omni tech? We are long past sticking to the lore 100% as i mentioned before. The ol' "but thats not lore!" argument is dead. Lore has been broken time and time again where this game is concerned. This will in no way tip the scales to this mech being overpowered either. It would be nice to have more chassis viable on the battlefeild that are rarely used or seen due to the disadvantage(s) that comes with them. And this is not an IS vs Clan issue either. Its about making the chassis more fun and versatile and visually correct. That is a start - who has other ideas to improve the Cougar?

Edited by BLOODREDSIN, 02 September 2021 - 11:38 AM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

HauptmanT, on 01 September 2021 - 01:05 AM, said:

But then Kodiaks will be king of the game again. Granted you should be scared when you see a Kodiak looking at you, but the fact that they could get in and hug you so easily was just absurd. Dysync happened because half of every team was a mech than ran a 400 engine, and anything less was just junk. Why do you hate the Atlas Hardcase?

The days of IS Assaults rocking XL400s blitzing with a gang of medium pulse lasers or heavies/mediums taking >340 XL rated engines brought more diversity to the game. The speed and maneuverability gained were the only reasons to take such a risk.

I just think there has to be a balance somewhere between rewarding the sacrifice of bringing a ≥ 325 rated engine, and not letting the Kodiak break the game.

[Kanil]

It would definitely cost you diversity in other areas, though. The engine desync is the only reason my Cyclops can justify it's existence -- the Kodiak is faster, has higher mounts, and more free tonnage... "post resync" it'd probably be more agile too, or at least close enough to obsolete a currently viable choice.

[YueFei]

A "normalized" re-sync could work. Basically engine would still influence agility, but to a lesser degree, and lowering your engine will never reduce agility below the baseline level. So you still have the option of taking a smaller engine, and your agility will be the same, but if you take a larger engine, it has a slight positive impact on your agility.

[Elizander]

YueFei, on 03 September 2021 - 11:54 PM, said:

A "normalized" re-sync could work. Basically engine would still influence agility, but to a lesser degree, and lowering your engine will never reduce agility below the baseline level. So you still have the option of taking a smaller engine, and your agility will be the same, but if you take a larger engine, it has a slight positive impact on your agility.

A system where there is diminishing returns the further you stray away from your baseline engine rating can work. Any linear system is always bound to fail once the numbers exceed the ideal parameters. This is especially notable in linear damage reduction systems where it might be fine at 20-50% but gets ridiculous once you start reducing incoming damage by 90%. This is why most games will go with a system of diminishing returns and set a soft cap.

[1453 R]

It's the eternal battle. Any time anyone suggests reinstating engine sync, half the playerbase immediately shrieks "BUT MUH SLOW 'MECHS Q_Q".

Any time anyone praises engine desync and says it "opened up so much diversity" (which is a god damned filthy lie, beeteedubs - Engine Desync destroyed so many 'Mechs in this game...), the other half of the playerbase shrieks "BUT MUH FAST 'MECHS Q_Q"

Lack of engine sync makes spending tonnage on your engine actively disadvantageous - putting tonnage into a bigger engine actively and intentionally makes your 'Mech worse, which is terrible and I absolutely bloody hate it. The previous engine sync made...I mean, I wanna say sense? I wanna say "it made taking more firepower an actual trade-off instead of a blind idiot derp-obvious solution"? I wanna say it made running faster 'mechs fun? But nobody's allowed to say those things because then somebody running the UrbanMech's STD60 engine in their Annihilator and moving ten kilometers an hour would complain that their 'Mech packing two heavy gauss rifles, four LB/X-10 autocannons, and a head-mounted heavy PPC would feel unfairly penalized by their decision to basically not equip an engine. And we can't be having that, now can we?

F#$%ing assault 'Mech drivers...q_q...