15 replies to this topic

[Mahpsy]

Let me preface this by first saying I personally don't have an issue with snipers, I enjoy it my self on my Shadow Cat's. But even as a sniper sometimes I feel the drop off damage should have a higher drop at extreme ranges.

Main issue I'm seeing is there seems to be no real weakness to these two weapons at the moment. If you are skilled with them, not even lights want to mess with you majority of the time. And with the new maps being sniper friendly the brawlers are lucky if they are able to charge them without losing something on the way.

Example, few days ago had a match on frozen city, almost the whole team was either Gauss or ER PPC aside from a few lights with their team. Any time someone wanted to trade at 1200M across the valley they lost something. Resulted in my whole team refusing to want to move anywhere not able to do anything. I was running my LB 2-X x2 on my CN9-D, and was one of maybe 4-6 that could actually trade but not for long. Usually can pull 800-1000 on that mech on maps like that, but the power of poke out shoot and duck is just better. Left that match with only 400-ish, 0-12.

All that being said, I'm curious as to what everyone one ells thinks. Should they have higher drop off like LRM's and close range? Should they have it to give weapons like AC/Ultra/LB 2's a place to shine?

Discuss!

[YueFei]

It's map / situational dependent. If a brawler can come to grips with Guass/PPC, even if it means eating 2 shots unopposed on the way in, the brawler still has plenty of DPS to win that. Assuming it's 1v1, anyway.

One of the issues in disorganized QP is that if the brawlers don't coordinate with each other over VOIP, and go in 1 at a time against Snipers that are covering each other, they can end up dying piecemeal. Like, 1 Brawler dives a Sniper, only to find that he's now exposed to 2 other Snipers standing nearby. Rinse and repeat for 2 other Brawlers who also die 1 at a time. It's a different story if it's 3 Brawlers crashing together into those 3 Snipers.

It's just that in a situation where it's disorganized on both sides, the Snipers can be somewhat effective even if they're not deliberately trying to coordinate, whereas if the Brawlers don't coordinate it's going to be awful. Part of the problem is that Brawlers do need some patience as they maneuver, but this can end up with various Brawlers being patient at their own "pace", not timing their pushes together, so that each one decides "now is the time" and goes in all by himself whilst the other Brawlers are still maneuvering or waiting for the right moment.

Edited by YueFei, 28 September 2021 - 10:07 PM.

[Mahpsy]

YueFei, on 28 September 2021 - 10:07 PM, said:

It's map / situational dependent. If a brawler can come to grips with Guass/PPC, even if it means eating 2 shots unopposed on the way in, the brawler still has plenty of DPS to win that. Assuming it's 1v1, anyway.

One of the issues in disorganized QP is that if the brawlers don't coordinate with each other over VOIP, and go in 1 at a time against Snipers that are covering each other, they can end up dying piecemeal. Like, 1 Brawler dives a Sniper, only to find that he's now exposed to 2 other Snipers standing nearby. Rinse and repeat for 2 other Brawlers who also die 1 at a time. It's a different story if it's 3 Brawlers crashing together into those 3 Snipers.

It's just that in a situation where it's disorganized on both sides, the Snipers can be somewhat effective even if they're not deliberately trying to coordinate, whereas if the Brawlers don't coordinate it's going to be awful. Part of the problem is that Brawlers do need some patience as they maneuver, but this can end up with various Brawlers being patient at their own "pace", not timing their pushes together, so that each one decides "now is the time" and goes in all by himself whilst the other Brawlers are still maneuvering or waiting for the right moment.

Yeah map is a big one, HPG is probably the worst contender because of the only way to go on top to get said snipers is to take a LOOONG walk around, then once you finally get there in anything that's 81-100 kph range this is usually the point one of the teams start to crumble. My last HPG e.x. would be a Night Gyr, a stealth Thany, and a Dire Wolf all took the sniper positions and no one could get to them, and we tried to coordinate to get to them. But it just wasn't possible. The snipers where not even coordinated, they just shot at anything that wasn't in cover at the time. 4-12 match.

[caravann]

Exactly why PPC is beam and gauss is ballistic is unknown since both uses charged up shots. The PPC is always charged while the gauss has to be charged up. The gauss is in need of ammo bins but there's where the differences changes a lot since the ammo is only mass, likewise PPC only uses mass of particles but is in need of tremendous amount of power.

Gauss and PPC should swap places in explosive gun because the gauss isn't charged compared to the PPC.

Beam has no explosive weapons or weapons who are dangerous to use. Even when the gun is in need of a fusion generator to work.

[1453 R]

Sharper drop-off wouldn't fix much. Those heavy sniper weapons still dramatically outrange brawlersticks, and they still have terrible DPS and often worse HPS compared to brawlersticks. Their maximum effective engagement range (and I mean "effective" as in 'worth taking the shot', not the Nominal Effective Range figure in the Mechlab) would drop some, but not by enough to make them less good at what you're complaining about, which is long-range peeky trades.

The answer is to avoid trading with 'Mechs specifically designed to do that. A peep/gauss sniper is going to do one thing - poke its noodle out, pop somebody, then pull its head back into cover like a turtle pulling into its shell. if you're not equipped to punish them for that and trade right back? Don't do it. Find another way to get at them, even if that means taking the long way around. Call out to your team that you're doing it - "Don't trade with the trader 'Mechs, we'll just lose. C'mon, follow me, let's try [New Plan Here] instead." You may not get much backing because Puglandians are incredibly resistant to change, but every time they hear "don't trade with trader 'Mechs" there's an ever-so-slightly higher chance of them paying attention. Even if only one or two of them follow you, who knows? Maybe that'll be the distracting splinter the rest of the idiot team needs to figure out a way to get stuck in and fight properly.

Edited by 1453 R, 29 September 2021 - 06:54 AM.

[LordNothing]

ive been running a lot of sniper builds lately and find that the sniper loadout doesnt really ruin my ability to fight in late game where ranged trading has turned into a close quarters battle even considering the significantly higher heat these weapons have. especially with the newer map designs having a lot of long range sight lines and very little in the way of covered approaches to the sniper positions. so attempts to reenact pickett's charge with brawlers tend to have them arrive all busted up, if at all.

i kind of think that er lasers should have a ramp in to their maximum damage. at point blank they would have half damage, and that would ramp up linearly to full damage at about half of optimal range. i dont think think this is needed on ppcs or gauss rifles, as those make it hard to stack high alphas, gauss with its charge limit and explodiness, ppcs with its ghost heat limit and cycle times and both being projectile weapons and not hitscan and subject to higher miss rates. traders know if they want to stack damage that erlls give them the best ranged alphas. thats where you need to apply balance pressure.

[Mahpsy]

LordNothing, on 29 September 2021 - 08:01 PM, said:

ive been running a lot of sniper builds lately and find that the sniper loadout doesnt really ruin my ability to fight in late game where ranged trading has turned into a close quarters battle even considering the significantly higher heat these weapons have. especially with the newer map designs having a lot of long range sight lines and very little in the way of covered approaches to the sniper positions. so attempts to reenact pickett's charge with brawlers tend to have them arrive all busted up, if at all.

i kind of think that er lasers should have a ramp in to their maximum damage. at point blank they would have half damage, and that would ramp up linearly to full damage at about half of optimal range. i dont think think this is needed on ppcs or gauss rifles, as those make it hard to stack high alphas, gauss with its charge limit and explodiness, ppcs with its ghost heat limit and cycle times and both being projectile weapons and not hitscan and subject to higher miss rates. traders know if they want to stack damage that erlls give them the best ranged alphas. thats where you need to apply balance pressure.

That's an interesting idea, would be worth looking into. But just had another HPG **** show happen. 5 Gauss PPC snipers on the wall. We actually managed to get behind them but even after the successful flank, we all died almost instantly.

[caravann]

Hpg is map design and many walks into the map when they should walk out of the map and up the hill to the wall and flank.

Lasers could work like a projectile where the damage is provided when aiming at the target, instead of the laser providing damage in stream the damage is applied at the end of each attack.

Because mechs work like tanks a laser who spread out damage across a mech from long range is able to shred the armor across the entire mech. Lasers work both as spread fire and focus fired and is the ultimate weapon without any velocity and instant hit the target. Pulse laser is merely the illusion and stack of small lasers is the pulse laser when both lasers and pulse lasers has damage over time.

[D A T A]

no

[Mahpsy]

D A T A, on 01 October 2021 - 02:55 PM, said:

no

Being from a Unit with 100 wins 0 losses in competitive I'm surprised a simple "no" was all you could muster, even top players can agree when something is too strong.

Can you elaborate as to why? Not trolling, real question.

Edited by Mahpsy, 01 October 2021 - 04:45 PM.

[Vindicated]

One thing, you mentioned long range "trading" with (U)AC2s (LBX spreads and would be worse.

Let's assume you have 3 UAC2 (given your chassis). 6-12 damage (let's assume it's 12). You may or may not be able to get a second volley in. If it's fast, let's assume not. If it's slow, it probably has 4 peeps so it gets 2 more on you anyways.

Meanwhile, 2 ERPPC, 20 damage (plus splash if clan). Meaning a blackjack or shadowcat or even a cougar or panther will out trade you.

Basically, if you know that's what they have you're exposing at high risk, if any of them shoots you, you take more damage than you can do. None of that has changed, I've played faction play prior to cauldron patches and a PPC poptart can easily whittle down an AC2 boat (a big one too) or make them stop shooting and back off to a safer position.

Second, as far as QP goes, I think with the buffs to ERLL, most people are running those. 11 damage each, and you can run 6 (or more) of them for 66 total damage (stagger fired, though alpha of 4 for 44 is doable). For getting farmed at range I think you might be more scared of those. That damage can spread a bit, but if you're standing out in the open trying to get AC2 shots, I think you'll take most of it to your CT.

[Mahpsy]

Vindicated, on 01 October 2021 - 09:24 PM, said:

One thing, you mentioned long range "trading" with (U)AC2s (LBX spreads and would be worse.

Let's assume you have 3 UAC2 (given your chassis). 6-12 damage (let's assume it's 12). You may or may not be able to get a second volley in. If it's fast, let's assume not. If it's slow, it probably has 4 peeps so it gets 2 more on you anyways.

Meanwhile, 2 ERPPC, 20 damage (plus splash if clan). Meaning a blackjack or shadowcat or even a cougar or panther will out trade you.

Basically, if you know that's what they have you're exposing at high risk, if any of them shoots you, you take more damage than you can do. None of that has changed, I've played faction play prior to cauldron patches and a PPC poptart can easily whittle down an AC2 boat (a big one too) or make them stop shooting and back off to a safer position.

Second, as far as QP goes, I think with the buffs to ERLL, most people are running those. 11 damage each, and you can run 6 (or more) of them for 66 total damage (stagger fired, though alpha of 4 for 44 is doable). For getting farmed at range I think you might be more scared of those. That damage can spread a bit, but if you're standing out in the open trying to get AC2 shots, I think you'll take most of it to your CT.

TBH my goal when I'm running my 2 LB Centurion is not so much to deal damage, but more of a " Hey look at me! I'm annoying you so you don't shoot higher priority targets!", It just happens to rack up decent damage if I manage to hold a few mechs back trying to counter snipe through my pellet spam. Especially after the armor buff so the centurion has as much if not more armor than some heavy mechs so I can take the damage if they do land. Low key wish Centurions had jump jets.

[Saved By The Bell]

Good teams use brain, try to find better way and kill snipers. Bad teams just try to shoot from them distance or stand in panic.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 02 October 2021 - 12:09 AM.

[Mal Bolge]

Mahpsy, on 01 October 2021 - 04:45 PM, said:

Can you elaborate as to why? Not trolling, real question.

If you have followed Data's previous posts, you know full well that he only supports changes that will give his playstyle advantages. Any net negative adjustments to sniping will always get a flat out no from him. And the reason for that is because it will benefit others, not him.

[D A T A]

Mahpsy, on 01 October 2021 - 04:45 PM, said:

Being from a Unit with 100 wins 0 losses in competitive I'm surprised a simple "no" was all you could muster, even top players can agree when something is too strong.

Can you elaborate as to why? Not trolling, real question.

long range is barely viable, and not meta for sure, nerfing somehting that is extremely difficult to master, and not even full meta try hard is a nonsense imo

[LordNothing]

Saved By The Bell, on 02 October 2021 - 12:08 AM, said:

Good teams use brain, try to find better way and kill snipers. Bad teams just try to shoot from them distance or stand in panic.

when in doubt, squirrels.