333 replies to this topic

[justcallme A S H]

Rizzi Kell, on 19 October 2021 - 04:28 AM, said:

and another patch to the wrong side, where is the balance? there is no balance just higher alphas on IS side, make OP mechs just more OP. Thanks for nothing

Please point out which IS mechs have larger Alpha's than Clan mechs.

[Rizzi Kell]

justcallme A S H, on 19 October 2021 - 06:28 AM, said:

Please point out which IS mechs have larger Alpha's than Clan mechs.

I give you one playable
Fafnir WR 4x MRM30 + 3 ER-med Lasers 325 light engine build 135 dmg alphaable now ; What does it get? [color=#00FFFF]FNR-WR:[/color]<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb(0, 255, 255); font-family: "Stratum1 Regular"; font-size: medium; background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25);">

• Increased heat to -15% (from -10%)
  
• Added 10% missile velocity

[Rizzi Kell]

justcallme A S H, on 19 October 2021 - 06:28 AM, said:

Please point out which IS mechs have larger Alpha's than Clan mechs.

next unfair mech for example?
MAD-4L 2x Gauss 2xER-PPC full stealth what it get?
Added 10% Gausscooldown 2xHSL to ERPPC (instead of 1) so 50 Pinpoint alpha at nearly 1000m

I can continue, what do Clans get in played assaultclass? oh wait SNV-1 get laserduration nerfed

[Commoners]

Rizzi Kell, on 19 October 2021 - 08:27 AM, said:

I give you one playable
Fafnir WR 4x MRM30 + 3 ER-med Lasers 325 light engine build 135 dmg alphaable now ; What does it get?

• Increased heat to -15% (from -10%)
  
• Added 10% missile velocity

Rizzi Kell, on 19 October 2021 - 08:37 AM, said:

next unfair mech for example?
MAD-4L 2x Gauss 2xER-PPC full stealth what it get?
Added 10% Gausscooldown 2xHSL to ERPPC (instead of 1) so 50 Pinpoint alpha at nearly 1000m

I can continue, what do Clans get in played assaultclass? oh wait SNV-1 get laserduration nerfed

It's funny that you're posting two IS 100 tonners that rarely get played and don't even remotely post up good numbers when they do as displays of something OP while comparing them to the SNV-1 that has been swooping in and dunking on entire teams when it posts up in a power position.

You also can't fire 4xMRM30s at once and they spread damage an insane amount, so that alpha you're trying to use as an example isn't an alpha and gets spread out all over the place, especially if the enemy mech twists at all instead of face staring.

It's anecdotal, but I've never seen a 4L perform well and I see them somewhat regularly unlike the wrath. Usually they just die last while posting a mediocre-at-most amount of damage. They generally don't even NEED to be dealt with as it stands with unlike an SNV-1, so at least now they maybe are going to be a threat like a 100 ton mech should be.

Which is the point of the buffs on the variants that aren't getting played or aren't doing well when they are played- It's supposed to make them at least relevant in their roles instead of comparative deadweight to anything else that could be taken to fulfill that same role.

If it means that 4Ls and Wraths need to be dealt with instead of being a given luxury that the blue team gets to ignore so that they can deal with actual threats to the team then it means they've finally reached parity to their in-role peers.

Edited by Commoners, 19 October 2021 - 09:42 AM.

[katoult]

Since it's not mentioned in the patch notes...

What's the delta file for Canyon Network for in the patch zip?

[Navid A1]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 06:16 AM, said:

And round and round we go.. saw this coming from their very first patch. First you get the weapon buffs, then you get the mech quirks, then what... you get the women?

You forgot mech agility.

Quirk adjustment did not happen because we buffed weapons. It has been one of the main steps planned along with weapon changes and agility.

Weapon changes were done to increase build diversity and to increase the number of effective builds you can make. On top of that, performance of different weapons are constantly monitored each month and tweaks are done when needed.

Agility was needed regardless of anything else, since mechs need it for better damage shielding and trading/brawling

Mech quirks is a way to compensate bad geometry or bad hardpoints, and/or maintain balance between a mech that has 3 hardpoints with 2 in the CT, and a mech that has 13 energy hardpoints in the same weight bracket.

Rizzi Kell, on 19 October 2021 - 08:27 AM, said:

I give you one playable
Fafnir WR 4x MRM30 + 3 ER-med Lasers 325 light engine build 135 dmg alphaable now ; What does it get? [color=#00FFFF]FNR-WR:[/color]<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; color: rgb(0, 255, 255); font-family: "Stratum1 Regular"; font-size: medium; background-color: rgb(25, 25, 25);">

• Increased heat to -15% (from -10%)
  
• Added 10% missile velocity

Yes... and that is great. That pile of trash might see some use. btw, that build had a high (useless) alpha even before recent patches touched it.

Rizzi Kell, on 19 October 2021 - 08:37 AM, said:

next unfair mech for example?
MAD-4L 2x Gauss 2xER-PPC full stealth what it get?
Added 10% Gausscooldown 2xHSL to ERPPC (instead of 1) so 50 Pinpoint alpha at nearly 1000m

I can continue, what do Clans get in played assaultclass? oh wait SNV-1 get laserduration nerfed

Again... good.
Maybe Deathstrikes and Direwolves with better alphas (both in damage output and type) will have something to fight with.

Also funny you mention SNV-1... the SNV-1 received ERLL HSL +1, more survival and better agility in August... All massive buffs. IDK, I can point you to a large number of buffs to clan mechs if you want... or you know... you can look as far back as August.

[Rizzi Kell]

Commoners, on 19 October 2021 - 09:37 AM, said:

It's funny that you're posting two IS 100 tonners that rarely get played and don't even remotely post up good numbers when they do as displays of something OP while comparing them to the SNV-1 that has been swooping in and dunking on entire teams when it posts up in a power position.

You also can't fire 4xMRM30s at once and they spread damage an insane amount, so that alpha you're trying to use as an example isn't an alpha and gets spread out all over the place, especially if the enemy mech twists at all instead of face staring.

It's anecdotal, but I've never seen a 4L perform well and I see them somewhat regularly unlike the wrath. Usually they just die last while posting a mediocre-at-most amount of damage. They generally don't even NEED to be dealt with as it stands with unlike an SNV-1, so at least now they maybe are going to be a threat like a 100 ton mech should be.

Which is the point of the buffs on the variants that aren't getting played or aren't doing well when they are played- It's supposed to make them at least relevant in their roles instead of comparative deadweight to anything else that could be taken to fulfill that same role.

If it means that 4Ls and Wraths need to be dealt with instead of being a given luxury that the blue team gets to ignore so that they can deal with actual threats to the team then it means they've finally reached parity to their in-role peers.

i was asked to show up mechs that are OP i did, and if you did not tested it you can shoot out 4 MRM30 and aditional 3 ER-Medlasers even on an unskilled Fafnir WR at same time (landing at 94% heat). i did not say it is pinpoint alpha like the MAD-4l i say alphaable to what i was asked for. it is now up to you to show me any equal mechbuilds on Clanside.

[pattonesque]

So it's not pinpoint alpha and alphaing it gets you to almost override on a slow mech with bad hitboxes

I guess Clans better watch out lol

[DAEDALOS513]

Navid A1, on 19 October 2021 - 09:44 AM, said:

You forgot mech agility.

Quirk adjustment did not happen because we buffed weapons. It has been one of the main steps planned along with weapon changes and agility.

Weapon changes were done to increase build diversity and to increase the number of effective builds you can make. On top of that, performance of different weapons are constantly monitored each month and tweaks are done when needed.

Agility was needed regardless of anything else, since mechs need it for better damage shielding and trading/brawling

Mech quirks is a way to compensate bad geometry or bad hardpoints, and/or maintain balance between a mech that has 3 hardpoints with 2 in the CT, and a mech that has 13 energy hardpoints in the same weight bracket.

Yes I realize it was all planned out early on.. some of the buffs were good but most of them are overlapping and we are ending up over-buffing already strong mechs.. I really don't want to get into it again for the umpteenth time but it was my contention from the beginning that we could have achieved the same effect of weapon diversity without mega-buffing 90% of weapons but instead, nerfing a few of the outlier (over-performing) weapons and going from there.

Maybe putting more of a focus on applying mech-specific quirks (weapon/armor/etc) for mechs that underperform due to bad hitboxes and/or mounts... instead, we're buffing the weapons AND the mech. This not only buffs the weak mech, but ALSO the strong mechs that already had good mounts/hitboxes.. See how we're chasing our tails? We are in a never-ending cycle of buffing.

Anther change that could have helped was adding some splash damage so things aren't so pin-point punishing. Remember, we still need more players to fill the player base.. player retention is an uphill battle when you die or get seriously rekt within the first 2 minutes of a match.

Still not sure why we nerfed streaks when they were rarely used and only on certain niche mechs.. don't think anyone really understood that one.

But anyway, the argument that nerfing weapons makes the game less fun doesn't make sense either because power is RELATIVE. ie. everyone has to use the same weapons so relatively speaking you're fire-power hasn't gone down.. the only difference is pilot skill becomes more important and TTK will should go up.

[Commoners]

Rizzi Kell, on 19 October 2021 - 09:51 AM, said:

i was asked to show up mechs that are OP i did, and if you did not tested it you can shoot out 4 MRM30 and aditional 3 ER-Medlasers even on an unskilled Fafnir WR at same time (landing at 94% heat). i did not say it is pinpoint alpha like the MAD-4l i say alphaable to what i was asked for. it is now up to you to show me any equal mechbuilds on Clanside.

Since we're building for pure alpha instead of functionality I will present to you the KDK1 which has sacrificed actual functionality for optimization:

https://mwo.nav-alph...=78fb447c_KDK-1

With the UAC20 double tap it will pump out 131 damage without overheating, with 107 of it being pinpoint instead of spread. If you want to get even dumber you can remove a heatsink and put a micro pulse in for 133.8 damage.

Is it a good idea? No, but it's only as bad as an idea of building a wrath with the same goals in mind.

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

List of highest comparable alphas (not including the really stupid builds):

AC2:
DWF-UV (Clan) - 16 damage - 8 AC2 - Excellent mech.

Dakka:
SNV-BR (Clan) - 116 damage (sometimes) - 2 UAC20 + 3 SRM6 - Excellent mech (using various versions).

LBX:
DWF (Clan) - 60 damage - 2 LBX20 + 2 LBX10 - Average mech.
ANH-1A (IS) - 60 damage - 2 LBX20 + 2 LBX10 - Good mech (too overgunned to be good, is actually Bad).

Extreme Range PPFLD:
MAD(II)-4L (IS) - 50 damage - 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPC - Average mech.

Not doing Short Range PPFLD, because clans do not have a true equivalent.

Machine Guns:
PIR-1 (Clan) - 12 DPS - 12 Machine Gun - Average mech.

Extreme Range Laservom:
SNV-1 (Clan) - 66 damage - 6 ERLL - Excellent mech (used to be just about Overpowered before laser duration nerf).

Laservom:
BL-7-KNT (IS) - 63 damage - 3 LPL + 6 ERML - Crap mech. (this has shorter burn time)
RFL-IIC (Clan) - 71.5 damage - 4 LPL + 3 ERML - Mediocre mech.
Not including heavy lasers, because while raw damage is higher, their longer burn time does not justify their comparison with these alphas.

SRM:
ARC-5W (IS) - 73.1 damage - 4 6SRMA + 5 2SRMA - Mediocre mech.

Personal Strongest Alphas in the game:
ANH-1X (IS) - 80 Damage - 2 HGR + 6 ML - Good mech.
SNV-BR (Clan) - 116 damage (sometimes) - 2 UAC20 + 3 SRM6 - Excellent mech.
MAD(II)-4L (IS) - 50 damage - 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPC - Average mech.
BL-7-KNT (IS) - 63 damage - 3 LPL + 6 ERML - Crap mech.
RFL-IIC (Clan) - 71.5 damage - 4 LPL + 3 ERML - Mediocre mech.
ARC-5W (IS) - 73.1 damage - 4 6SRMA + 5 2SRMA - Mediocre mech.
KGC-0000 (IS) - 115.6 damage - 2 AC20 + 4 SRM6 + 4 MPL - Good mech (way too overgunned to be optimal, is actually Bad).



Ratings are based on my build tier list, a.k.a. mostly on Mechlab stats. Not going to deny that I may have made mistakes.

Edited: Made some parts clearer





Putting aside my confusion as to why the IS – Clan balance is bought up here , alpha strike potential is not the only factor in determining if a mech is powerful. There are many other considerations: sustained DPS, survivability (not to be confused with armour), mobility (not to be confused with speed or agility), hardpoints and mounts, etc.

Also, Rizzi seems to have completely ignored the currently really poor performing mechs being buffed in this patch alone: Commando, Jenner, Jenner IIC, Phoenix Hawk, Marauder IIC.

However, lets stick with the alpha strike is king argument. Clan mechs are still typically the better choice for high alpha builds. Reason why you see so many examples of IS mechs having high alphas is because they have much more build variety than Clanners, that is all.


TL:DR, mostly disagree with Rizzi's arguments, completely agree with Commoners's and Navid's arguments, have nothing to say about pattonesque's comment.

P.S: who runs 4 MRM30s on the Wrath anyway? Why not use 3 MRM30s plus some support weapons and equipment?

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 19 October 2021 - 01:41 PM.

[Rizzi Kell]

just do easymode patch out clan, give refund on clanpackages.

[DAEDALOS513]

Navid A1, on 19 October 2021 - 09:44 AM, said:

You forgot mech agility.

Quirk adjustment did not happen because we buffed weapons. It has been one of the main steps planned along with weapon changes and agility.

Weapon changes were done to increase build diversity and to increase the number of effective builds you can make. On top of that, performance of different weapons are constantly monitored each month and tweaks are done when needed.

Agility was needed regardless of anything else, since mechs need it for better damage shielding and trading/brawling

Mech quirks is a way to compensate bad geometry or bad hardpoints, and/or maintain balance between a mech that has 3 hardpoints with 2 in the CT, and a mech that has 13 energy hardpoints in the same weight bracket.



Yes... and that is great. That pile of trash might see some use. btw, that build had a high (useless) alpha even before recent patches touched it.




Again... good.
Maybe Deathstrikes and Direwolves with better alphas (both in damage output and type) will have something to fight with.

Also funny you mention SNV-1... the SNV-1 received ERLL HSL +1, more survival and better agility in August... All massive buffs. IDK, I can point you to a large number of buffs to clan mechs if you want... or you know... you can look as far back as August.

I feel like if the Deathstrike and Direwolf are not performing like they used to it is only because other mechs with more agility can now boat uber-powered weapons to counter and out-trade them.. so what did we do? Buffed those mechs to keep up with the other buffing that we implemented to counter previous buffs..

Just like the economic inflation crisis the US is suffering through right now.. we are creating a 'weapon inflation' situation or a fun-flation if you will. We keep implementing buffs on weapons and mechs to make the game more fun and when we start to see mechs are melting too easily, what do we do in our infinite wisdom.. we do the same thing we that created the problem in the first place.. add more buffs to 'fix' the problem; just like how the US is printing moar money out of thin air to fix the inflation crisis that printing money caused in the first place.. smh

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 19 October 2021 - 12:31 PM.

[Scout Derek]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 11:42 AM, said:

Just like the economic inflation crisis the US is suffering through right now.. we are creating a 'weapon inflation' situation or a fun-flation if you will. We keep implementing buffs on weapons and mechs to make the game more fun and when we start to see mechs are melting too easily, what do we do in our infinite wisdom.. we do the same thing we that created the problem in the first place.. add more buffs to 'fix' the problem; just like how the US is printing moar money out of thin air to fix the inflation crisis that printing money caused in the first place.. smh

[DAEDALOS513]

Scout Derek, on 19 October 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

Queue the meme king.. judging from the meme I guess you don't understand the purpose or function of analogies. Let me help:

An analogy is something that shows how two things are alike, but with the ultimate goal of making a point about this comparison. The purpose of an analogy is not merely to show, but also to explain. For this reason, an analogy is more complex than a simile or a metaphor, which aim only to show without explaining.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 19 October 2021 - 01:04 PM.

[Scout Derek]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

Queue the meme king.. guess you don't understand the purpose or function of analogies. Let me help:

An analogy is something that shows how two things are alike, but with the ultimate goal of making a point about this comparison. The purpose of an analogy is not merely to show, but also to explain. For this reason, an analogy is more complex than a simile or a metaphor, which aim only to show without explaining.

[John Bronco]

The clanners in here should spend more time working on their piloting skills and less time complaining about imagined biases.

[nut the ultemate]

DAEDALOS513, on 19 October 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

Queue the meme king.. judging from the meme I guess you don't understand the purpose or function of analogies. Let me help:

An analogy is something that shows how two things are alike, but with the ultimate goal of making a point about this comparison. The purpose of an analogy is not merely to show, but also to explain. For this reason, an analogy is more complex than a simile or a metaphor, which aim only to show without explaining.

Can you explane this using more simple words so my non english mind can understand this.

[C337Skymaster]

CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 19 October 2021 - 10:52 AM, said:

MAD(II)-4L (IS) - 50 damage - 2 Gauss + 3 ERPPC - Average mech.

Only 2 energy hardpoints on the MAD-4L...

[CrimsonPhantom6sg062]

C337Skymaster, on 19 October 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

Only 2 energy hardpoints on the MAD-4L...

Noted!

Edited: Blrgh... I just realised the ANH-1X HGR build is dodgy as well... fmh...

Edited by CrimsonPhantom6sg062, 19 October 2021 - 01:40 PM.