336 replies to this topic

[Commoners]

The trash heap variants of a chassis getting significantly buffed doesn't mean that the t1 variants that are actual good mechs are getting significant buffs.

[Aivazovsky]

Charles Sennet, on 22 October 2021 - 02:39 PM, said:

Doesn't matter -- a lot of words and deflection here but still no explanation on why this patch was so heavily in favor of IS mechs (including T1's) and so light on Clan changes.

Anything but answer a simple question it appears.

IS chassis 65 / Clans 42... really hard to understand ... forget it, it's just a Cauldron conspiracy against Clans

[Tarl Cabot]

John Bronco, on 22 October 2021 - 08:45 AM, said:

Also interested in this, I'm hoping to see more clan representation than in the past due to the strength of cERLL and Timby and Gyr being best heavies in the game.

?? Clan mechs have been the primary go-to since PGI started the MWOCCS in 2016, and at least the finals saw 1-3 IS mechs/match. The only exception of when only IS mechs were allowed in the 2018, and it PGI made it stock IS mechs... Wolfhound was a favorite IS light mech, with the oddball urbie/flea.

[John Bronco]

Tarl Cabot, on 22 October 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:

?? Clan mechs have been the primary go-to since PGI started the MWOCCS in 2016, and at least the finals saw 1-3 IS mechs/match. The only exception of when only IS mechs were allowed in the 2018, and it PGI made it stock IS mechs... Wolfhound was a favorite IS light mech, with the oddball urbie/flea.

IS mechs have been 60-70% of the mechs used in the leagues during the last 3 years. I wasn't paying attention in 2016.

[Brauer]

Tarl Cabot, on 22 October 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:

?? Clan mechs have been the primary go-to since PGI started the MWOCCS in 2016, and at least the finals saw 1-3 IS mechs/match. The only exception of when only IS mechs were allowed in the 2018, and it PGI made it stock IS mechs... Wolfhound was a favorite IS light mech, with the oddball urbie/flea.

IS mechs have been very popular in the light, medium, and assault categories since at least 2019. In 2019 clan mechs were only more commonly taken in the heavy weight class, and some clan mechs have been fairly commonly taken in the assault class. In 2020 we saw more clan mechs come out in the assault class (the EXE being a notable winner of 2020), but IS still dominated the lights and mediums.

This is all from memory, but people have compiled usage stats for the finals for both of those years and I am confident that my description will largely match those. You're welcome to go find them.

Edited by Brauer, 22 October 2021 - 06:33 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

I think a lot of people will be surprised with this years numbers for the finals.

I know I will be.

Overall it is a mix of IS and Clan among the top teams from perusing the CompQ results. Especially with huge balance shake ups each month and many teams testing out various changes/items.

Suffice to say I've seen plenty of either side and the difference between the two is not that large and I'm regularly checking the results etc. CompQ is about the best and certain mechs/weapons are always going to be the best at the role - there is no getting away from that.

Myself I've used a mix of IS and Clan mechs depending on the map, we have not really have a plan as a team so it's been a bit random. I still believe the NTG is one of the strongest mechs in the game and loh and behold it's Clan Mech! I've also done very well in IS Assaults and equally in Clan Heavy/Assaults.

I have an idea of what we are going to see for the Finals however I am fully expecting it to undergo a shake-up which will make it one of the most exciting final series in the games history. I also know that certain teams have a tendancy for specific play styles which means certain tech is picked and it will vary team to team.

I'm sure someone will do the usual data dump after it all.

[The6thMessenger]

Charles Sennet, on 22 October 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

There is a perception forming among many FP players, true or untrue, that the Cauldron has an IS bias.

I honestly never got that impression from them. If anything they definitely buff Clans at a better place.

Personally, as a Clanner, I actually would still nerf some Clan stuff like C-ERPPC to have reduced upfront damage and cooldown for a bit of DPS. But that's just me.

[justcallme A S H]

Charles Sennet, on 22 October 2021 - 02:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Hmm... not that you would know anything about me but I'm a student of all the changes being made. Doesn't matter -- a lot of words and deflection here but still no explanation on why this patch was so heavily in favor of IS mechs (including T1's) and so light on Clan changes.

Anything but answer a simple question it appears.

I'm really just attempting to bring up some concerns. Concerns many others share but who feel its a waste of their time to bother sharing. But instead of engaging in a civil discussion, anyone who makes comments that are slightly perceived as a criticism or contrary to way they see things faces personal attacks which others pile onto.

This is an exercise in futility. When the Cauldron started they said they welcome everyone's feedback. Evidently that's no longer the case (if it ever was).

No more balance comments from me will appear in these forums. Its pointless. And go on thinking the Commando's hitboxes are perfectly fine. LOL

You win. GG

So basically because you aren't getting your way, it's toys out of the pram time? C'mon.

This is going to be a long reply. You want explainations I am more than happy to do what I can.

Personal attacks.
I'm not seeing any.

Feedback
The Cauldron welcomes all feedback. That said if "feedback" is just funamentally wrong then what do you do with it? Trying to compare a Solaris 1v1 build and 1v1 between mechs as a point of balance - Cauldron cannot do anything with that - it is just very very wrong (as has been pointed out).

Then also to say PPFLD for IS is "that" better which is comletely bizzare. Apart from the first month I haven't seen more than 1-2 LGauss/ERPPC WHMs a month in Quick Play.

How do you honestly expect Cauldron take on feedback that is fundamentally flawed and apply it? I am genuinely interested in the answer there. I mean usually in my daily life if someone gave me feedback that was completely wrong, I'd ignore it. However as part of Cauldron I felt the need to explain why it was wrong and took the time to detail WHY - Exhibit A.

Explainations.
Reading through each months patch note threads and General Discussion - there are many, many explainations each month. To say that you don't get any is very, very unfair. If you are expecting an explaination for each single line on the Patch Notes when the overall aim has been advised plenty is boredering on unreasonable.

• Cauldron Balances for Quick Play specificially.
  
• Quirk passes are not finished yet.
  
• Balance passes are not finished yet.

As for explainations so far in this thread: Navid 1 / Navid 2 / Navid 3 / Navid 4 / Navid 5 / Navid 6 (general) / Navid 7 (general) / Ash 1


Regarding the 2 chassis

Commando - As pointed out in this thread already it is the variants with arms that get blown off easily reducing 40-60% of their firepower.

Have you even tried to play a CMD-TDK? 2E in each arm, I can tell you having played it, is a PIA. It loses the arm the second it gets shot at as you try to escape. It needs a buff as do the other variants on the arms. 15pts of armour which is just over one SRM6's worth is hardly over the top.

While a Commando is annoying as hell, it is far from overpowered. How many games have you dominated in a Commando? How many games has anyone complaining about it, dominated? I imagine the number is slim to none. Just being annoying to hit =/= overpowered.

Stalker - The vasty majority of the variants being buffed are not strong. Why do we say this? Because of their useage for one and because some Stalkers truly are, bad.

We have some data from PGI about useage stats and the Stalkers are lowly represented in Quick Play, especially compared to MCIIBs, BASPs, WHMIICs etc, the real dominator Assault Chassis of Quick Play. I cannot comment further as I am not allowed, I will ask that in 2022 PGI perhaps post some stats once the changes have settled down. Just so people can actually see for themselves what the reality is vs perception.

The Cauldron have maintained since the outset that ultilised/poorly represented mechs that need help are getting it. The strong ones as I've listed are not getting love as they don't need it. For the same reason the Sleipnir, Anni etc are also not getting anything. I think the crap Annie (1E) might get attention, unsure exactly what. That mech is complete elephant dung with 6 low slung arms, it needs help.

The split this month for changes is like 60/40 for IS vs Clan, it is not "light" on for clan at all. Please be objective - Go and actually look at all the previous months and the whole picture. Picking one month and saying "Cauldron only loves IS" is discussion in very bad faith. I would call "light on Clan" as 80/20 split IS vs Clan. If you go back over all the patch notes and then come back telling me it's around a 80/20 split for buffs, I'll go jump.

The wholistic view is that both sides have recevied plenty of great treatment and it is not finished. There is still more to go, the patches are not finished. The balance is not final. The Cauldron work is going to continue on for months yet. Everyone having a panic each month about one specific thing is just being ignorant of the larger picture.

-----

This is my personal comment here - I am getting tired of having to explain the same things to the same people each month. I see the same incorrect/sensationalist statements each month. I mean I still come and reply (as does Navid), it is however growing tiresome for me and admittadly that does creep into my posts at times after 6months+ of the same "game" each month. Now I don't know if other Cauldron members share that feeling but I can understand if they are.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 October 2021 - 07:53 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Charles Sennet, on 22 October 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

There is a perception forming among many FP players, true or untrue, that the Cauldron has an IS bias. Quirking Tier 1 chassis such as the Stalker, Warhammer, and Commando and the fact this patch had a lot more quirks for IS mechs than Clan adds to this perception.

So all other patches never existed then? Is that what you're saying? **** dude, if I could have a nickel for every variant not touched each patch of a certain tech type, I'd be rich! It's not like the Ebon Jaguar, Highlander IIC, Timberwolf, Mist Lynx or Piranha got buffs yet right?

Look man, As far as I know, Cauldron isn't balancing around FP; Maybe you should play quickplay more than just sitting in FP, maybe you'll see things differently, maybe not.

[nuttyrat]

Charles Sennet, on 22 October 2021 - 01:10 PM, said:

There is a perception forming among many FP players, true or untrue, that the Cauldron has an IS bias. Quirking Tier 1 chassis such as the Stalker, Warhammer, and Commando and the fact this patch had a lot more quirks for IS mechs than Clan adds to this perception.

Overall the Cauldron has done a fantastic job of injecting new life in the game and I'm very appreciative of their work.

Let me alleviate your concern a bit by saying that in all of the Cauldron meetings I have attended, there has never been any discussion that "IS Mechs need to be buffed and Clan sucks" or anything like that. You are talking about THIS PATCH but forget that this is the 3rd quirk pass on mechs. You can look at the following patch notes for more information:

Aug (1st quirk pass): MWO: Forums - Patch Notes - 1.4.245.0 - 24-August-2021 (mwomercs.com)
Sept (2nd quirk pass): MWO: Forums - Patch Notes - 1.4.246.0 - 21-September-2021 (mwomercs.com)

Each quirk pass has included both IS and Clan mechs, with OP mechs generally being left alone, or only getting a small adjustment. The Cauldron is focusing on the game mode that 90% of the players play in, which is Quick Play. Solaris, Faction Play, and Comp Play are not a focus because those game modes represent a very small percentage of players. I know that sucks to hear as someone who plays FP, but it's important to face facts. FP is still fun to play ... in fact I've been playing it every Saturday for a couple of months now on stream for both sides and having a blast.

This isn't to say that FP doesn't matter ... it does! ... but you have to appreciate that with the vast majority of players playing in QP .. that PGI would want the Cauldron to focus efforts there instead.

[denAirwalkerrr]

justcallme A S H, on 22 October 2021 - 07:49 PM, said:

Spoiler

So basically because you aren't getting your way, it's toys out of the pram time? C'mon.<br></p><p><br></p><p>This is going to be a long reply. You want explainations I am more than happy to do what I can.</p><p><br></p><p><strong>Personal attacks.</strong></p><p>I'm not seeing any.</p><p><br></p><p><strong>Feedback</strong></p><p>The Cauldron welcomes all feedback. That said if "feedback" is just funamentally wrong then what do you do with it? Trying to compare a Solaris 1v1 build and 1v1 between mechs as a point of balance - Cauldron cannot do anything with that - it is just very very wrong (as has been pointed out).</p><p><br></p><p>Then also to say PPFLD for IS is "that" better which is comletely bizzare. Apart from the first month I haven't seen more than 1-2 LGauss/ERPPC WHMs a month in <strong>Quick Play</strong>.</p><p><br></p><p>How do you honestly expect Cauldron take on feedback that is fundamentally flawed and apply it? I am genuinely interested in the answer there. I mean usually in my daily life if someone gave me feedback that was completely wrong, I'd ignore it. However as part of Cauldron I felt the need to explain why it was wrong and took the time to detail <strong>WHY -</strong> <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431329" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431329" class="bbc_url" title="">Exhibit A.</a></p><p><br></p><p><strong>Explainations.</strong></p><p>Reading through each months patch note threads and General Discussion - there are many, many explainations each month. To say that you don't get any is very, very unfair. If you are expecting an explaination for each single line on the Patch Notes when the overall aim has been advised plenty is boredering on unreasonable.</p><ul class="bbc"><li>Cauldron Balances for Quick Play specificially.</li><li>Quirk passes <strong>are not </strong>finished yet.</li><li>Balance passes <strong>are not</strong> finished yet.</li></ul>As for explainations so far in this thread: <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430519" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430519" class="bbc_url" title="">Navid 1</a> / <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430524" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430524" class="bbc_url" title="">Navid 2</a> / <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430631" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430631" class="bbc_url" title="">Navid 3</a> / <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431339" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431339" class="bbc_url" title="">Navid 4</a> / <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430744" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430744" class="bbc_url" title="">Navid 5</a> / <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430917" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6430917" class="bbc_url" title="">Navid 6 (general)</a> / <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431197" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431197" class="bbc_url" title="">Navid 7 (general)</a> / <a data-cke-saved-href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431329" href="https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/281552-patch-notes-142470-19-october-2021/page__view__findpost__p__6431329" class="bbc_url" title="">Ash 1</a><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>Regarding the 2 chassis</p><p><br></p><p><strong>Commando </strong>- As pointed out in this thread already it is the variants with arms that get blown off easily reducing 40-60% of their firepower.</p><p><br></p><p>Have you even tried to play a CMD-TDK? 2E in each arm, I can tell you having played it, is a PIA. It loses the arm the second it gets shot at as you try to escape. It needs a buff as do the other variants on the arms. 15pts of armour which is just over one SRM6's worth is hardly over the top.</p><p><br></p><p>While a Commando is annoying as hell, it is far from overpowered. How many games have you dominated in a Commando? How many games has anyone complaining about it, dominated? I imagine the number is slim to none. Just being annoying to hit =/= overpowered.</p><p><br></p><p><strong>Stalker</strong> - The vasty majority of the variants being buffed are not strong. Why do we say this? Because of their useage for one and because some Stalkers truly are, bad.</p><p><br></p><p>We have <em>some</em> data from PGI about useage stats and the Stalkers are lowly represented in <u>Quick Play</u>, especially compared to MCIIBs, BASPs, WHMIICs etc, the real dominator Assault Chassis of <u>Quick Play</u>. I cannot comment further as I am not allowed, I will ask that in 2022 PGI perhaps post some stats once the changes have settled down. Just so people can actually see for themselves what the reality is vs perception.</p><p><br></p><p>The Cauldron have maintained since the outset that ultilised/poorly represented mechs that need help are getting it. The strong ones as I've listed are not getting love as they don't need it. For the same reason the Sleipnir, Anni etc are also not getting anything. I think the crap Annie (1E) might get attention, unsure exactly what. That mech is complete elephant dung with 6 low slung arms, it needs help.</p><p><br></p><p>The split this month for changes is like 60/40 for IS vs Clan, it is not "light" on for clan at all. Please be objective - <strong>Go and actually look</strong> at all the previous months and the whole picture. Picking one month and saying "Cauldron only loves IS" is discussion in very bad faith. I would call "light on Clan" as 80/20 split IS vs Clan. If you go back over all the patch notes and then come back telling me it's around a 80/20 split for buffs, I'll go jump.</p><p><br></p><p>The wholistic view is that <strong>both sides</strong> have recevied plenty of great treatment and it is not finished. There is still more to go, the patches are not finished. The balance is not final. The Cauldron work is going to continue on for months yet. Everyone having a panic each month about one specific thing is just being ignorant of the larger picture.</p><p><br></p><p>-----</p><p><br></p><p>This is my personal comment here - I am getting tired of having to explain the same things to the same people each month. I see the same incorrect/sensationalist statements each month. I mean I still come and reply (as does Navid), it is however growing tiresome for me and admittadly that does creep into my posts at times after 6months+ of the same "game" each month. Now I don't know if other Cauldron members share that feeling but I can understand if they are.

Damn toxic cauldron not accepting feedback, I've been posting on forums for 3 years that IS mechs are op and still nothing was done about it!

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 22 October 2021 - 10:07 PM.

[Staude]

a nice example is e.g.

Clan NTG-H
2xGauss,1 ERPPC 40DMG a 4,5 sec. with gost heat !!!

was too strong was annoyed a long time ago now has gost heats

IS WHM-6R

2x light Gauss 2x ERPPC 40 DMG a 3 sec.
is okay no gost heats

[denAirwalkerrr]

Staude, on 23 October 2021 - 02:27 AM, said:

a nice example is e.g.

Clan NTG-H
2xGauss,1 ERPPC 40DMG a 4,5 sec. with gost heat !!!

was too strong was annoyed a long time ago now has gost heats

IS WHM-6R

2x light Gauss 2x ERPPC 40 DMG a 3 sec.
is okay no gost heats

NTG: has JJs, has ability to equip ECM, has better hitboxes, has addiitional 5 splash damage on PPC, has clan XL while WHM is either much slower on LFE or runs XL with gauss in torso

Next.

Edited by denAirwalkerrr, 23 October 2021 - 02:54 AM.

[Staude]

denAirwalkerrr, on 23 October 2021 - 02:41 AM, said:

NTG: has JJs, has ability to equip ECM, has better hitboxes, has addiitional 5 splash damage on PPC, has clan XL while WHM is either much slower on LFE or runs XL with gauss in torso

Next.

ECM also has a meaning at 900 meters ( Snipen)

Edited by Staude, 23 October 2021 - 03:43 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Staude, on 23 October 2021 - 02:27 AM, said:

Spoiler

a nice example is e.g.

Clan NTG-H
2xGauss,1 ERPPC 40DMG a 4,5 sec. with gost heat !!!

was too strong was annoyed a long time ago now has gost heats

IS WHM-6R

2x light Gauss 2x ERPPC 40 DMG a 3 sec.
is okay no gost heats

It is once again a pretty bad example even for one you've had to cherry pick. As Denair has pointed out the NTG has the following advantages

• JJ
  
• ECM
  
• cXL
  
• cERRPC splash
  
• Hitboxes/Combined with JJ to spread damage
  
• Overall better sustained cooling.

Again as I have told you a few pages ago, which you've gone oddly silent on by the way, go to the Mechlab, you need to adapt.
I give you the Mechlab for people paying attention to the balance shifts.

ntg-d
whm-6r

I know what Mech I would rather bring to QP and I tell you now, it isn't the WHM. The NTG is stronger and much more versatile. If you do not sit at 1200m+ in the WHM you will get smoked. The NTG does not have this issue at all and thus dominates Quick Play.

With the cAC5 you will sacrifice 90m optimal over LGauss however in Quick Play this is so rarely going to be a factor it is not an issue.

Staude, on 23 October 2021 - 03:39 AM, said:

also has a meaning at 900 meters ( Snipen)

How many LGauss/ERPPC WHMs do you see in Quick Play currently vs NTGs with ERL/Gauss etc etc?

I see 1-2 WHMs a month. If they were as great as you keep trying to claim they would be everywhere. They simply aren't.

[Heavenward]

I must admit i'm playing MWO a lot less now since the ongoing 'cauldron' patches began as my initial thoughts were that if balancing was incremental it would be best to wait until playing again once a fair amount of patches were applied and some semblance of balance was starting to appear.

After playing a couple of games i cant say i really notice too much of difference, i don't play meta builds i just play mech's i have fun in.

That said, as A S H mentioned above there are many months more of patches to come, my worry is that may be too long a timescale. I understand there is a resource constraint affecting the amount of changes being made every patch but i cant help but feel that a little more impetus is needed to push trough more changes faster.

So a quick question for you ASH - how far percentage wise do you think we are at achieving the cauldrons vision of balance? (Quite frankly i think its a Sisyphean task so my respect to the people on taking on task.)

That said, to me it appears, that the opinion of balance has caused this forum to become quite partisan in their behavior. Could everyone please try and strike a more conciliatory tone, or i fear this community may spiral into toxicity

[TubbyToast]

On Is side stands Battlemaster 6erll +30%range boost defeats the supernover with more range and way better peaks ,PPC Highlander Is also wins against Highlander IIC with more velocity (close to 3000) and range of cause, Awsome mech again with crazy range and is basiclly king of the ppcs...
Lurms,AC2s,PPCs and Lasers with the pinpoint duration all working better on Is side.
Just some facts i had in mind doesn't mean i think Is is superiore in eveyway. I also think clanners don t use they full potential and keep sticking to old builds what ash said already.

[justcallme A S H]

Heavenward, on 23 October 2021 - 03:53 AM, said:

I understand there is a resource constraint affecting the amount of changes being made every patch but i cant help but feel that a little more impetus is needed to push trough more changes faster.

As many that can be done each month are being done. PGI are definitely doing the best there, there is no way it can be faster. I mean just reading the patch notes the volume is huge.

It's been fun each month to give a while pile of mechs a new run, give some builds a whirl etc. I look forward to playing after patch days and streams are always fun with build science and testing out stuff.

Heavenward, on 23 October 2021 - 03:53 AM, said:

So a quick question for you ASH - how far percentage wise do you think we are at achieving the cauldrons vision of balance? (Quite frankly i think its a Sisyphean task so my respect to the people on taking on task.)

I think roughly about 85-90% there. Nov and Dec are going to be a little smaller and then its just ongoing tweaks and see how things settle. No doubt there will be adjustments, the bulk is done.

Maybe we take Jan off, it's been a lot of work this year.

Now if rescale happens - prepare for everything to be shaken upside down and fun begins again

[Nightbird]

More of Paper OP, Scissors fine.
- signed Rock.

[vonJerg]

TubbyToast, on 23 October 2021 - 03:57 AM, said:

On Is side stands Battlemaster 6erll +30%range boost defeats the supernover with more range and way better peaks ,PPC Highlander Is also wins against Highlander IIC with more velocity (close to 3000) and range of cause, Awsome mech again with crazy range and is basiclly king of the ppcs...
Lurms,AC2s,PPCs and Lasers with the pinpoint duration all working better on Is side.
Just some facts i had in mind doesn't mean i think Is is superiore in eveyway. I also think clanners don t use they full potential and keep sticking to old builds what ash said already.

Could you pls post the build of that Battlemaster and the Awesome.