30 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

It'd do even better if the MRM-20 didn't weigh a full extraneous ton over two MRM-10s A ton which buys one nothing save the ability to cram two launchers into a single hardpoint for an egregious penalty in available tonnage. That's nearly 300 damage worth of MRM reloads an RVN-2X doesn't get, and I can't make myself make that sacrifice on anything small/fast I've tried to make smaller MRM launchers work with.

[feeWAIVER]

1453 R, on 18 October 2021 - 01:01 PM, said:

How does that solve the problem of smaller launchers being strictly worse than larger ones?

MRM-30 and MRM-40 launchers are already very powerful brawling weapons. They vomit out a galactic smackton of damage; heavy and assault 'Mechs armed with multiple 30 or 40-rated MRM launchers can cover you with so many bees your 'Mech goes into anaphylactic shock and dies.

The MRM-10 has no such advantage, doing less damage per missile hardpoint than an SRM-6. And the MRM-20 is the least weight-effective launcher in the entire game, an absolutely terrible waste of tonnage. Why should the larger launchers benefit from a higher rate of fire as well as being larger, more weight-efficient, and just overall better?

The advantage of MRM20 is having a 60pt alpha for 1 ton more than two MRM 30's, but 1 heat less (lol) and slightly tighter spread. The advantage is in their more compact size when you want to to fit more weapons into your component space.
Much of the same can be said about 10's, smaller alpha, but you get the point.


Ya'll are missing the forest for the trees, though.

The original decision to normalize MRM cooldown was the right direction.
Just like normalizing er smalls and medium pulse cooldowns, as well as others combos.

It lends itself to more creativity in building. Maybe you wanna cram a 10/20 into some rando mech? Maybe you wanna do a 30/10?

Let's use the 30/10 example:

Currently, they will be on the same cooldown. You're fine.

After this change, sure, the 10 will be on a shorter cooldown.. So you fire once.. And now either way, on your second fire you're gonna have to wait for a cooldown. You either have to wait for both to be cooled down, or you'll fire and have to stare at your enemy for an additional 0.4 seconds- maybe a little less with inflating quirk percentages - so let's say 0.3 seconds.

Regardless, when mixing and matching launchers, you're gonna be staring into the laser vomit for about a 1/3rd of a second more, or your gonna wait about 1/3rd of a second longer to fire again. Either way, you will be effectively penalized.

Thus my view is to keep the launchers uniform. If you need to buff the 10's and 20's, then buff them all equally.
Not every mech can carry two 30's, and if two 30's gets a little stronger would that really be so bad?

It's not like everyone is running around with MRMs these days- I know I'm certainly not.

[FupDup]

feeWAIVER, on 18 October 2021 - 03:38 PM, said:

The advantage of MRM20 is having a 60pt alpha for 1 ton more than two MRM 30's, but 1 heat less (lol) and slightly tighter spread. The advantage is in their more compact size when you want to to fit more weapons into your component space.
Much of the same can be said about 10's, smaller alpha, but you get the point.


Ya'll are missing the forest for the trees, though.

The original decision to normalize MRM cooldown was the right direction.
Just like normalizing er smalls and medium pulse cooldowns, as well as others combos.

It lends itself to more creativity in building. Maybe you wanna cram a 10/20 into some rando mech? Maybe you wanna do a 30/10?

Let's use the 30/10 example:

Currently, they will be on the same cooldown. You're fine.

After this change, sure, the 10 will be on a shorter cooldown.. So you fire once.. And now either way, on your second fire you're gonna have to wait for a cooldown. You either have to wait for both to be cooled down, or you'll fire and have to stare at your enemy for an additional 0.4 seconds- maybe a little less with inflating quirk percentages - so let's say 0.3 seconds.

Regardless, when mixing and matching launchers, you're gonna be staring into the laser vomit for about a 1/3rd of a second more, or your gonna wait about 1/3rd of a second longer to fire again. Either way, you will be effectively penalized.

Thus my view is to keep the launchers uniform. If you need to buff the 10's and 20's, then buff them all equally.
Not every mech can carry two 30's, and if two 30's gets a little stronger would that really be so bad?

It's not like everyone is running around with MRMs these days- I know I'm certainly not.

The thing you're missing is that it's not just about balancing MRMs vs. other weapon types. It's also about balancing MRMs within their own lineup. Giving them all an equal buff doesn't change the relative standing of each individual launcher. This is similar to when TT guys say that all ACs should have the same DPS buffs relative to TT (i.e. AC/20 does 10x the DPS of an AC/2), and I point out that this leaves the the AC/2 and AC/5 in a state of pure doodoo. Different guns have different needs. Weaker guns get bigger buffs than strong guns.

If cooldown is that big of a deal you can just wait the extra like half second or so until your biggest launcher is loaded before you fire again.

If there were no cooldown difference then the spread would probably be the only other method to achieve the objective of making small launchers usable. If the spread was tightened pretty heavily for MRM10/20 I could maybe see normalized cooldowns working. They gotta get something though, because they don't get the incredible damage-per-hardpoint efficiency of the MRM30/40 (hardpoints are very important, this ain't MW3).

[ScrapIron Prime]

MRMs mix better with PPC armaments than SRMs do. I use them everywhere I use that weapon combo for a generalist build… which admittedly is not a lot. And a single missile hardpoint is best served with a larger MRM. My Roughneck with the LBX/10 and MRM/30 for example.

[feeWAIVER]

FupDup, on 18 October 2021 - 03:52 PM, said:

The thing you're missing is that it's not just about balancing MRMs vs. other weapon types. It's also about balancing MRMs within their own lineup. Giving them all an equal buff doesn't change the relative standing of each individual launcher. This is similar to when TT guys say that all ACs should have the same DPS buffs relative to TT (i.e. AC/20 does 10x the DPS of an AC/2), and I point out that this leaves the the AC/2 and AC/5 in a state of pure doodoo. Different guns have different needs. Weaker guns get bigger buffs than strong guns.

If cooldown is that big of a deal you can just wait the extra like half second or so until your biggest launcher is loaded before you fire again.

If there were no cooldown difference then the spread would probably be the only other method to achieve the objective of making small launchers usable. If the spread was tightened pretty heavily for MRM10/20 I could maybe see normalized cooldowns working. They gotta get something though, because they don't get the incredible damage-per-hardpoint efficiency of the MRM30/40 (hardpoints are very important, this ain't MW3).

10's and 20's don't have to compete against 30's or 40's, because they same thing, just more/less thereof.
Smaller mechs can't equip bigger launchers, and bigger mechs can combo them with other weapons.
It's a silly argument.

If every size of weapon had to be treated equal, why aren't we patching for small pulse Warhammers?

[feeWAIVER]

ScrapIron Prime, on 18 October 2021 - 03:57 PM, said:

MRMs mix better with PPC armaments than SRMs do. I use them everywhere I use that weapon combo for a generalist build… which admittedly is not a lot. And a single missile hardpoint is best served with a larger MRM. My Roughneck with the LBX/10 and MRM/30 for example.

This is true, and after the patch both MRM 10 and 20 will be brought within .1 second of the default cooldown for PPCs.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 18 October 2021 - 04:25 PM.

[FupDup]

feeWAIVER, on 18 October 2021 - 04:21 PM, said:

If every size of weapon had to be treated equal, why aren't we patching for small pulse Warhammers?

Small Pulses are pretty good on some mechs. Not really on Warhammers specifically, but they have a legit place elsewhere. (I do actually have a 2 HPPC + 7 SL Warhammer and it's pretty fun and effective).

The small MRM launchers, on the other hand, don't have as much of a place as red lasers do. It's not like there are some special mechs that are beasts with MRM10 spam like how some mechs are stronk with red lasers.

[feeWAIVER]

FupDup, on 18 October 2021 - 04:24 PM, said:

Small Pulses are pretty good on some mechs. Not really on Warhammers specifically, but they have a legit place elsewhere. (I do actually have a 2 HPPC + 7 SL Warhammer and it's pretty fun and effective).

The small MRM launchers, on the other hand, don't have as much of a place as red lasers do. It's not like there are some special mechs that are beasts with MRM10 spam like how some mechs are stronk with red lasers.

And that's because the cooldown sucks.
Does the cooldown really need to suck for 30's and 40's? Do you believe they are so strong that they need a 4.3 second cooldown?

Let's count Mississippi's out loud.
One Mississippi Two Mississippi
Three Mississippi Four Mississippi Five Miss.

Does the cooldown need to be that long?
Or can we have a happy medium, a tide to lift all boats?


Because MRMS kinda suck, guys.

[FupDup]

feeWAIVER, on 18 October 2021 - 04:32 PM, said:

And that's because the cooldown sucks.
Does the cooldown really need to suck for 30's and 40's? Do you believe they are so strong that they need a 4.3 second cooldown?

Let's count Mississippi's out loud.
One Mississippi Two Mississippi
Three Mississippi Four Mississippi Five Miss.

Does the cooldown need to be that long?
Or can we have a happy medium, a tide to lift all boats?

Because MRMS kinda suck, guys.

You can buff the bigger launchers if you want, but IMO as an MRM-aficionado I think the big ones are actually in a pretty good spot. I'd rather keep them as-is (which is quite competent, even if not bleeding-edge comp tier) than risk an over-buff and subsequent over-nerf. But I don't think a slightly shorter cooldown on the big launchers would be too gamebreaking I guess.

This is getting a little sidetracked from my argument earlier though. Whether we buff all the launchers by some amount or only some of them, I think the little ones need more special treatment than the big ones. If not in the cooldown department, then spread or something else impactful. The point is that they're starting from wildly different power levels.

EDIT: And honestly, even the weaker launchers are still useable (kind of contradicting myself but okay). I can get consistently average to good games with weird things like MRM Hellspawns and Assassins (and that Raven I mentioned earlier). MRMs aren't usually godly but I don't know how so many people can see them as being so horrible. Like, if I could choose only one IS weapon for my Clan mechs to mount, I wouldn't hesitate to choose MRMs (probably the MRM30 specifically).

Edited by FupDup, 18 October 2021 - 04:46 PM.

[feeWAIVER]

FupDup, on 18 October 2021 - 04:40 PM, said:

The point is that they're starting from wildly different power levels.

They are also starting from wildly different weights. They're the same thing, they just scale up.
You're asking for a bigger apple in your left hand, because you're holding 4 apples in your right.

[Thorqemada]

The coodown for missiles should have been based on total tubecount and not on launcher size.

4x MRM10 = 1x MRM40 etc.